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Posts: 117
Location: Northern Illinois | All of abu's new muskie products are now up on their website. Looks good
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Posts: 555
Location: Tennessee | muskie tamer - 6/30/2015 12:32 PM
What rod? Is abu coming out with a new rod as well?
Keep your eyes peeled for a new line of Abu muskie rods to match up to the new Revos. I've been testing several of the prototypes since winter and you'll be able to get them very soon now. Even a 10'1"
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 image.jpg (100KB - 390 downloads)
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Location: Lake St Clair | Nice! |
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Posts: 1000
| That a beast on there? |
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Posts: 859
Location: MN | Looks like a Okuma Komodo 350 |
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Posts: 2687
Location: Hayward, WI | Looks like MSRP for the Beast is $400, which is $100 more than the MSRP for the NACL. Maybe the Beast will be available in some places for around $320-$350. I just bought an NACL for about $220.
The white S series have a listed MSRP of $250, or 50 bucks less than the NACL. I wonder what they will sell for, and I wonder how they will compare to the NACL in terms of quality. I have had good luck with the NACL I used last year and hoping the 2nd one I just bought works just as well.
Interesting stuff coming from them. I was hoping one of the beast versions came in a 34-36" per crank version, so happy to see the 34" reel coming out. I'll probably be pretty tempted to get one of those next year to replace my Saltist. I'll sacrifice the 1" per crank for spool brakes and low profile. |
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Posts: 815
Location: Waukee, IA | Any word on if the Toro Beast HS will be able to deal with double tens? The NaCl HS does not and it's 4 inches/turn slower than the Beast. I would imagine that unless they went to stainless gears that it wouldn't cut it for cowgirls. |
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Posts: 2017
| I'm sure it will pull them in ..uncomfortable .. High gear ratio 6.1 - 1 and power don't go hand in hand...the 4.9-1 is 27" per turn...that will make 10's butter! |
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Posts: 555
Location: Tennessee | tolle141 - 7/15/2015 2:03 PM
That a beast on there?
No that's my Komodo on the new Abu rod. What I can say is my thoughts on the rod will be based heavily on its actual market price. To the higher end of rumored pricing, my money will be on a LT or similar. If in a mid range as suggested by several testers then it will be an excellent rod. |
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Posts: 815
Location: Waukee, IA | I assumed the normal speed (4.9:1) would be a great fit, I just wondered if the new HS was up there with the Tranx HG. People who own the HG Tranx claim it works well for tens, but I've never tried one. Looks like I'll need to pony up $400 for a new Toro Beast either way. |
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Location: Hayward, WI | IAJustin - 7/15/2015 2:22 PM
I'm sure it will pull them in ..uncomfortable .. High gear ratio 6.1 - 1 and power don't go hand in hand...the 4.9-1 is 27" per turn...that will make 10's butter!
I hear what you're saying, but have to say it is very similar to the Saltist 20 in gearing and inches per turn, and I think the Saltist does a pretty good job of pulling 10's as fast as I want to without wearing me out. I was actually hoping they came out with something between the Tranx PG and HG as I think the PG is a little slow for such a big reel and the HG might wear a guy out by the end of the day? |
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Posts: 2017
| don't agree with your post curleytail .. your PG is as fast ,maybe faster per crank the first 25% - 50% of your cast than your Saltist 20 and it is definitely easier to burn big baldes all day with a PG vs Saltist. (I own both reels)
Edit: Don't forget reels are measured inches per crank when full of line ...a reel like a Toro 60 with 80 lb braid might get 27" full ..but closer to 22" after a bomb cast... Big spools are a good thing if you want to fish blades fast ...90% of blade fish will eat at the first 25% of the cast or boatside |
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Posts: 2687
Location: Hayward, WI | Wouldn't spool width be the biggest factor that plays into how fast a reel is after a bomb cast vs a full spool at the boat? Does a Tranx have a wider spool than a Saltist? The current NACL's I would guess have a wider spool than a Tranx? The new Beast looks like it has a taller, wider spool more like the Tranx.
I don't own a Tranx so I can't compare. |
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Location: Hayward, WI | I should clarify - I'm not trying to argue that the new Beast will be better than a Tranx, but it looks like it will be easier for me to afford, and I'm hoping the high speed version will still be powerful enough to handle 10's while being a fairly fast reel. I'm sure they'll be pretty hot as soon as they are released so I'll be looking forward to reviews from real life use on this new reel. |
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Posts: 1828
| All this talk about "power" sort of bugs me. I wish it could be put to rest.
To "burn" some specific bait at some specific speed, you have to put in the exact same amount of power using any reel UNLESS certain reels are more efficient than others. Quality in materials and manufacturing makes that difference. Not spool size, gear ratio, handle length, or anything like that.
If you don't like to push very hard on the handle, then get a longer handle or use lower gear ratio reels or both. But if you get longer handles to "save" on the force you have to apply, then you're paying for it by making bigger circles. If you're saving on force by using lower gear ratio lures, then you're paying for it by having to turn the handle faster.
If you want to see the effort you actually put into burning a bait with each reel, look at the attached spreadsheet. I added the right half to the sheet that tolle141 posted. I didn't know any of the reels' handle lengths, so feel free to enter the actual handle lengths (from spindle center to grip center) to see your actual input force.
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Musky reel breakdown - POWER.xlsx (18KB - 412 downloads)
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Posts: 2017
| BUT..spool size makes a huge difference on speed when you look at the entire cast...I don't care how fast a reel is full ... Take a toro 50 for example load it up with 100Lb line how fast is it with 50%-70% of the line off the reel on a bomb cast? |
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Posts: 1828
| IAJustin - 7/16/2015 9:58 AM
BUT..spool size makes a huge difference on speed when you look at the entire cast...I don't care how fast a reel is full ... Take a toro 50 for example load it up with 100Lb line how fast is it with 50%-70% of the line off the reel on a bomb cast?
You're absolutely right about that.
the wider the spool, the less the speed changes throughout the retrieve. Also, larger diameter spools will have less of a speed change throughout the retrieve.
In your 50 size Toro example, you CAN compensate for the lower IPT when the bait is way out by simply cranking faster. But that's uncomfortable.
I prefer to not have to crank 100 mph, so I like higher gear ratios with larger spools. I accept that it means I actually have to push harder on the handle. So then a longer handle helps with that, and I accept that I then actually move the handle in a bigger loop per crank. It just feels better to me. |
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Posts: 750
Location: Minneapolis, MN | I was actually interested in the S as a replacement for my 400B, but now I'm thinking maybe I'll see if I can grab a NACL at a reduced price. I'm not really digging the paddle handle that's shown for the S, nor am I a fan of how they are currently listing only a paddle handle for the 50 size and a power handle for the 60 size.
I do find it interesting that with the release of these newest lines they are actually listing a difference in IPT from one size to the next even if you stay in the same gear ratio. |
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Location: Waukee, IA | Different spool depth between the 50 and 60 sizes? |
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Posts: 246
Location: Grand Marais, MN | Is anyone around here looking forward to the ambassadeur beast round reel? seems out of place in today's push to go toward lower profile reels with high retrieve rates. I love round reels, but This reel is going to cost 400 bones for, from what I can tell, no new features. its bulky, slow, and has an oldschool push button.
Just confused, seems like abu could do a lot better on a round reel. |
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Posts: 750
Location: Minneapolis, MN | bigfoot - 7/16/2015 4:24 PM
Is anyone around here looking forward to the ambassadeur beast round reel? seems out of place in today's push to go toward lower profile reels with high retrieve rates. I love round reels, but This reel is going to cost 400 bones for, from what I can tell, no new features. its bulky, slow, and has an oldschool push button.
Just confused, seems like abu could do a lot better on a round reel.
Yeah I'd be interested to find out what their thought process was behind that reel. |
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Posts: 815
Location: Waukee, IA | I don't think the ambassador Beast would be such a bad reel had they had a smooth palming plate. The tensioner knob in the middle automatically rules it out for me. I don't think everyone palms reels though, so it could be good for them. |
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Posts: 424
| Jesse,thanks for the sheet.
I would like to understand one thing.
Are the reels that have a high / higher drive torque better than those that have a low / lower drive torque or the drive torque is not a determining factor when you choose / buy a reel ?
esoxone |
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Posts: 1000
| jaultman - 7/16/2015 9:44 AM
If you want to see the effort you actually put into burning a bait with each reel, look at the attached spreadsheet. I added the right half to the sheet that tolle141 posted. I didn't know any of the reels' handle lengths, so feel free to enter the actual handle lengths (from spindle center to grip center) to see your actual input force.
I'm glad somebody checked that thing out lol Thanks for taking it to the next level.
If anyone wants to fill in handle length data, that would be very insightful. Preferably full handle so we can just divide by 2. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | dami0101 - 7/16/2015 4:37 PM
bigfoot - 7/16/2015 4:24 PM
Is anyone around here looking forward to the ambassadeur beast round reel? seems out of place in today's push to go toward lower profile reels with high retrieve rates. I love round reels, but This reel is going to cost 400 bones for, from what I can tell, no new features. its bulky, slow, and has an oldschool push button.
Just confused, seems like abu could do a lot better on a round reel.
Yeah I'd be interested to find out what their thought process was behind that reel.
Any one actually read what that reel is supposed to be, what the gearing and internal parts are, etc?
Guess not. But who's surprised? |
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Posts: 1000
| Teach us Steve. We're hopeless |
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Posts: 1828
| esoxone - 7/16/2015 8:30 PM
Jesse,thanks for the sheet.
I would like to understand one thing.
Are the reels that have a high / higher drive torque better than those that have a low / lower drive torque or the drive torque is not a determining factor when you choose / buy a reel ?
esoxone
If you're referring to the Drive Torque Required column in that spreadsheet -
Any reel that has high IPT (inches per turn) on the retrieve will have a proportionately high torque input requirement. The input torque comes from you pushing on the handle. So torque in this spreadsheet isn't really a metric for rating how "good" the reels are. It just shows the relationship between all the reels in terms of cranking speed AND input torque to get a particular job done. With high speed reels, you crank harder (torque) but slower. Lower-speed reels, you crank faster but not as hard.
It's a matter of preference - what feels good to you.
For what I've realized "feels" best to me, that Toro Beast 60 High Speed with the counterweighted power handle looks awesome. |
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Posts: 246
Location: Grand Marais, MN |
"Any reel that has high IPT (inches per turn) on the retrieve will have a proportionately high torque input requirement. The input torque comes from you pushing on the handle. So torque in this spreadsheet isn't really a metric for rating how "good" the reels are. It just shows the relationship between all the reels in terms of cranking speed AND input torque to get a particular job done. With high speed reels, you crank harder (torque) but slower. Lower-speed reels, you crank faster but not as hard.
It's a matter of preference - what feels good to you."
you dont input torque, you input a force. If a fella could apply the same amount of force on, for example, a tranx pg and a tranx hg, they would have the same torque (force * length of lever arm). Reels do not have "power" or "torque". Just look at the physical definition of all these words that we use and see how most people dont use them correctly, and then nobody understands what anyone is ever talking about because everyone has their own definition they are working with.
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Location: Minneapolis, MN | sworrall - 7/16/2015 11:09 PM
dami0101 - 7/16/2015 4:37 PM
bigfoot - 7/16/2015 4:24 PM
Is anyone around here looking forward to the ambassadeur beast round reel? seems out of place in today's push to go toward lower profile reels with high retrieve rates. I love round reels, but This reel is going to cost 400 bones for, from what I can tell, no new features. its bulky, slow, and has an oldschool push button.
Just confused, seems like abu could do a lot better on a round reel.
Yeah I'd be interested to find out what their thought process was behind that reel.
Any one actually read what that reel is supposed to be, what the gearing and internal parts are, etc?
Guess not. But who's surprised?
I looked at the reel information right after I looked at the revo toro beast, and for the same price, I'm not seeing why one would get the ambassadeur beast, 5.1:1 with 24 IPT over the toro beast, 4.9:1 with 24 or 27 IPT. Thus I'm interested to find out what the thought process is behind making this reel. If you can provide some insight, then please do so. |
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Posts: 1828
| bigfoot - 7/17/2015 10:48 AM
you dont input torque, you input a force. If a fella could apply the same amount of force on, for example, a tranx pg and a tranx hg, they would have the same torque (force * length of lever arm). Reels do not have "power" or "torque". Just look at the physical definition of all these words that we use and see how most people dont use them correctly, and then nobody understands what anyone is ever talking about because everyone has their own definition they are working with.
You're totally right, you input a force (tangent to the reeling motion circle, at a perpendicular distance, or torque-arm, to the drive gear axis) which results in torque input to the drive gear. I fully understand this stuff. and I agree, almost everyone misuses all these terms, making it impossible to reason with most people.
In my spreadsheet I have a column for input torque to the drive gear, which is totally terminologically correct and independent of reel handle geometry. in further posts I explained how the handle comes into play. Don't want to push hard on a reel? get a low IPT or a long handle or both. But you're not getting more actual work for nothing.
Reels don't have power, users have power. To burn a certain bait X at V speed you have to input P power, the exact same amount, no matter what reel you use. You can do it by reeling really tiny circles, really fast, with very little force on the handle. Or you can do it with even LESS force by spinning bigger circles, really really fast. Or more force, spinning big circles, slowly. etc. |
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