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BrianF. |
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Posts: 284 Location: Eagan, MN | 14ledo81 raises a good question, which also leads to others. Is there a difference between the various strains of musky in terms of their thermo regulatory and feeding behavior? Most of what is being discussed here applies to Leech Lake strain muskies found in relatively large lakes having loads of pelagic forage. Would the typical strain of musky found in other states act the same in a similar environment? What about environments where there is no pelagic forage relating to a big basin, for example in a shallow, small, fast moving river system or, as 14ledo81 asks, in a shallow flow age situation that presumably lacks pelagic forage? Do all muskies, regardless of strain, have this same thermo regulatory need? I would tend to think so, but my experiences with strains other than Leech Lakers is that they show somewhat different thermo regulatory behaviors. What have others seen? Brian | ||
| jlong |
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Posts: 1937 Location: Black Creek, WI | I grew up chasing WI Strain muskies. Some lakes has ciscoes, others only sucker/panfish for forage. What is unique about the true MN Sunbathers is there intense movement to shallow structures during peak water temps. I have attributed this to their basin feeding habits... but could be wrong. The Wisconsin fish, however, is where I've observed some of the better THERMO related fish movements. Two opportunities present themselves: 1. When Preferred water temperatures exist (71F?) muskies will seek this condition out over others. 2. When water temperatures are changing (up or down) they will seek stability (areas with the least change in temperature... or closest to the last stable temperature). Find these microhabitats that provide either preferred water temps or greater temperature stability... and you'll find more muskies... and arguably bigger muskies too. These learnings from WI strain muskies has treated me well when applying them to Spotted Strain muskies. | ||
| esoxaddict |
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Posts: 8782 | If they are like other cold blooded creatures, one could speculate that they might just move up into the warmer shallow areas to get their metabolism going BEFORE they feed as well as afterwards, as Brian mentioned earlier. That could explain some of the fish we catch shallow. They're not up there to eat, they're up there to warm up and THEN go eat. It's a theory, but it runs contrary to the notion that they need thermal stability as well as a preferred temperature. Seems a quick transition from the warmest shallow water into the colder deeper water might be a bit of a shock to their system. I've not seen it with muskies, but I have had the experience with other species of fish being physically warm to the touch, or cold to the touch compared to the surface water you are putting them back into. Surface temperatures only tell you part of the story. | ||
| MstrMusky |
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Posts: 156 | Lots of good discussion here, and much of it correlated with my own observations. I think sometimes we as musky fisherman try to come up with "rules", but the fact most likely is that not all the muskies are alike or doing the same thing. Based on some observations this year, I have a new theory I was wondering what some of you thought of it. I think it only is valid late summer once water temps have started to tick down a bit. In or near open water, what if there is such a good spot/structure...that the muskies never actually travel far away. The walleyes are always there, and I believe the ciscoes "come home" every evening/night. As an efficient predator, wouldn't it make more sense for the muskies to just "wait" for the food to come back to them? This is then where the thermal considerations come in. I think the muskies are never far from this structure, and depending on the sun/heat, they just slide down off the structure/bars, or paddle out a bit to open water and suspend. Obviously, wind trumps all. If its really windy and the bait may never come "home" that evening/night, then the muskies will start moving to the next spot or start swimming in search of food. | ||
| sworrall |
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Posts: 32886 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | jlong - 11/14/2014 10:21 AM I grew up chasing WI Strain muskies. Some lakes has ciscoes, others only sucker/panfish for forage. What is unique about the true MN Sunbathers is there intense movement to shallow structures during peak water temps. I have attributed this to their basin feeding habits... but could be wrong. The Wisconsin fish, however, is where I've observed some of the better THERMO related fish movements. Two opportunities present themselves: 1. When Preferred water temperatures exist (71F?) muskies will seek this condition out over others. 2. When water temperatures are changing (up or down) they will seek stability (areas with the least change in temperature... or closest to the last stable temperature). Find these microhabitats that provide either preferred water temps or greater temperature stability... and you'll find more muskies... and arguably bigger muskies too. These learnings from WI strain muskies has treated me well when applying them to Spotted Strain muskies. Nailed it, I think. Spotted muskies like to travel very shallow, and it may be as much environmental as strain related. I tried to use the shallow water patterns I identified on the Goon in WI, and was very successful. Small areas, JL's microhabitats, I believe. We caught fish in 1 to 3' of water all year this season maybe because temps allowed them to be where they are most comfortable. | ||
| Larry Ramsell |
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Posts: 1291 Location: Hayward, Wisconsin | Sworrall: I believe, after tracking muskies on both "the Goon" (Wabigoon) and Eagle, that your identified shallow water patterns on the Goon were more a factor of water clarity than thermo related. Light penetration there is very limited due to the suspended clay particles in the water, hence the weeds don't grow very deep and when the muskies there go to the weeds to warm-up, they are naturally in shallow water. I did track muskies there that were either traveling or feeding in deeper water, but when they were shallow, they were really shallow...cover & warmth? More food for thought. | ||
| BrianF. |
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Posts: 284 Location: Eagan, MN | On the shield lake I fish, there was a thick four acre weed bed in a shallow sand bay that used to hold all kinds of summer muskies, big ones included. At the mouth of this sand bay, perhaps 100 yards from the weedbed, was a rock pike that also consistently held muskies right up on top. When the rusty crayfish moved in to the area and ate ALL the weeds, the spot no longer held muskies. While not surprising as the weeds were the attraction there, what was something of a surprise was that the rock pile also stopped holding fish. I'm unclear about the connection between these two spots, but think thermal considerations were a factor. Any one care to venture a guess why a rock spot would die when an associated weedbed disappeared? Not sure I 'get it'. Brian Edited by BrianF. 11/16/2014 10:42 AM | ||
| sworrall |
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Posts: 32886 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Wabigoon cleared considerably over the years and the pattern stayed very shallow. And the shallow pattern we have been working in WI has been on some relatively clear water. One of the really effective 'Goon patterns is current and sand cuts, really shallow. Regarding what are commonly referred to as 'complexes'...I saw the same thing in Wisconsin where rocks and weeds, separated by a fair distance but part of a 'complex', changed when Rusties showed up. | ||
| Travis A. |
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Posts: 157 Location: Lincoln, NE | BrianF. - 11/16/2014 10:39 AM On the shield lake I fish, there was a thick four acre weed bed in a shallow sand bay that used to hold all kinds of summer muskies, big ones included. At the mouth of this sand bay, perhaps 100 yards from the weedbed, was a rock pike that also consistently held muskies right up on top. When the rusty crayfish moved in to the area and ate ALL the weeds, the spot no longer held muskies. While not surprising as the weeds were the attraction there, what was something of a surprise was that the rock pile also stopped holding fish. I'm unclear about the connection between these two spots, but think thermal considerations were a factor. Any one care to venture a guess why a rock spot would die when an associated weedbed disappeared? Not sure I 'get it'. Brian Makes sense. The muskies could have been feeding in the weedbed and then going over to the rock spot to warm/digest. Once the weedbed disappeared the baitfish it held moved and the muskies probably followed. Once they moved to a new food and correlating thermo/digestion spot nearby that feeding spot, they probably had no reason to travel farther back to the old rock spot. The next question would be to check it out again the following year and see if they are using it again up until the weeds disappear again, assuming the crayfish eat it up again. This is thread is a gem of great information and ideas. I hope the discussion continues. I'll add my experience with this. On the reservoir I fish dam is like a zero wade swimming pool. In March, April and May the muskies are stacked in there like sardines in a can. I see a lot of pictures on Facebook of people catching them from the shore during this time. My theory is that the concrete warms up and heats that water first. Along with nearby baitfish spawning area and constant wind blowing into the area. It is a good spot up until Memorial Weekend. After that we haven't raised a single musky there in June, July, August, until the temps switch back to the fall pattern. The pictures of random people catching them also stop after that time. At first I was thinking it was because the baitfish left the area after spawning but now I also think it has to do with the water temp. They probably hang out there in spring since it warms sooner but then once it reaches above that 70 degree sweet spot I'm thinking something clicks and they start to roam and find the cooler water. | ||
| esoxaddict |
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Posts: 8782 | We've seen the same thing on a few lakes up in Vilas. Rusties devour the "good" weeds, and some of the adjacent rock spots just sort of.... die. It makes sense if those areas are what I like to call "transitionary" meaning the muskies will use the weedy areas at certain times of the year and adjacent rock structure at others, or even move between the two. Another aspect that a lot of folks talk about is the oxygen produced by those weeds. Having found fish in weed beds that are pretty well dead I'm not sure that's a determining factor, but green weeds do seem to be a fish magnet. Thick weed beds provide ambush points, cover, shade, and they attract baitfish. It makes sense to me that if the rusties destroy a weed bed, that baitfish and muskies will vacate the area completely. The good news is that they haven't left the lake. They've gone somewhere. You just have to figure out where somewhere is. As Travis said above, 70 seems to be the magic temperature. To me that's a combination of 1. the fish needing to feed more because their metabolism has basically sped up as the temperature rises. #2 is that when you're finding that magic 70 degree mark, muskies will be in more places across the lake. When the water is hot, they seek cooler water, thus limiting the areas where they will likely be. The same goes for cold water in the spring, and the cooler water you find in the fall prior to turnover. They're looking for warmer water. | ||
| jlong |
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Posts: 1937 Location: Black Creek, WI | BrianF, The rockpile in your example may have been a DickP "Holding Pen" type situation. A spot they hung up on as they traveled between two destinations (weedbed for oxygen/digestion/recovery and basin for feeding). Once one of the two destinations were eliminated... the fish no longer traveled the route that put fish in the holding pen (rock pile). | ||
| FlyPiker |
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Posts: 386 | Sorry if this already posted in this thread, didn't see it here though. http://www.tnfish.org/MuskyMeltonHillLakeTennessee_TWRA/files/Seaso... Most of the info confirms what has already been said but has a built in control (as much as can be done in a non-lab setting) for dissolved oxygen and forage base due to the unique conditions at Melton Hill. Definitely worth a read on a cold winter day. Edited by FlyPiker 2/18/2015 12:20 PM | ||
| BrianF. |
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Posts: 284 Location: Eagan, MN | Interesting... So, to summarize, when available, muskies in Melton Hill tend to seek and remain in a preferred temperature range, avoiding temperatures above and below that range. During the cold water period, when the preferred temperature range is not available, they tend to seek the warmest water available. In the warm water period, they spread out more, which tells me that once the temperature preference is met other factors (e.g. forage, DO, current, spawning) probably begin to take on more importance. In the cold water period, the Melton muskies congregated in the warmest water section of the lake. So, in the cold water period, finding the warmest temperature seems to take precedent above the other basic needs? Just wondering how we anglers correlate this info into more fish in the boat. B. Edited by BrianF. 2/18/2015 1:59 PM | ||
| jlong |
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Posts: 1937 Location: Black Creek, WI | Wow, great read! Thanks for sharing FlyPiker! It seems to confirm that muskies will relocate to stay in their preferred water temperature of 22.4 Deg. C (72.3 Deg. F) and prefer STABILITY in water temperatures. As seasons progress, different areas and structures of the watershed will provide that for them. This certainly agrees with my angling experiences. | ||
| jlong |
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Posts: 1937 Location: Black Creek, WI | Brian... note that the fish avoided the high current areas. These areas of the system were cooler on average and had more daily temperature fluctuations. Thus, I suspect that if we as anglers treat ALL current equally... our results will be sporatic. Gotta look for the "right" current... which in this case is water with a stable temperature... and ideally of the right temperature (72.3 Deg. F). | ||
| BrianF. |
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Posts: 284 Location: Eagan, MN | Good points, J. What I think needs to be highlighted is how artificial the cold-water environment is on Melton Hill, with the power plant discharge pumping out warm water during the normally cold water period. Still, studying how the muskies respond in that environment I think only helps to shed light on how important temperature is to these creatures when in natural lakes, rivers, or reservoirs not having a warm-water discharge. Actually, I should probably say the importance of 'comfort' vs. temperature, which leads me to another thread. B. | ||
| Reef Hawg |
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Posts: 3518 Location: north central wisconsin | Good read. Having been fishing systems with warm water influences and cold water inlets since a child, these areas always seem to be seasonal fish 'pens', especially during extremes. Half the fish population of one huge fishery used to run miles in fall for thermal reasons almost exclusively. Now that the lions share of the thermal draw is gone, the same portion of the fish no longer show up. That brings me to my question with regards to these isolated thermals: Is there imprinting once a fish finds/stumbles upon these places(are the same fish returning?)? From how far away can a fish detect and more importantly, be drawn to one of these 'zones'? For example, a cool water inlet on lotw that is otherwise featureless, holds fish only during the spawn then during heat. What are the factors that determine the return if they're coming from a distance further than they can feel it? Is it a revolving door area being refreshed with new fish, or does the same set of fish that utilize this area, return each year? I know I'm referenceing the more obvious artificial and small natural spots, but can we expand it to the large natural systems? Do the same fish find comfort in the same areas each year when the need is greatest(coldest and warmest periods) and do they show up based on the 'memory', the pull of the comfort, or the push from the extreme? Edited by Reef Hawg 2/18/2015 9:34 PM | ||
| jlong |
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Posts: 1937 Location: Black Creek, WI | Reef Hawg - 2/18/2015 9:24 PM Do the same fish find comfort in the same areas each year when the need is greatest(coldest and warmest periods) and do they show up based on the 'memory', the pull of the comfort, or the push from the extreme? Good questions, Jason. Wish I could answer them. For now, I'm keeping it simple and assuming they find these "micro habitats" by avoiding the extremes. | ||
| Chemi |
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jlong - 1/30/2015 3:19 PM This sounds exactly like what Buck Perry called a "migration route" between the feeding area and the "sanctuary". Kind of a rest area on the turnpike.BrianF, The rockpile in your example may have been a DickP "Holding Pen" type situation. A spot they hung up on as they traveled between two destinations (weedbed for oxygen/digestion/recovery and basin for feeding). Once one of the two destinations were eliminated... the fish no longer traveled the route that put fish in the holding pen (rock pile). | |||
| Travis A. |
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Posts: 157 Location: Lincoln, NE | Thanks for the link FlyPiker, some very good information in there. Here are some thoughts and analysis: It appears that the bigger muskies have less tolerance/preference to the upper limit of comfortable temperature range. This would lead one to believe that they would be the first muskies to leave a good shallow spot once it heats up going from spring into summer or as summer progresses and head out into the main lake basin in search of cooler waters. Applying this theory one could also make the assumption that the bigger muskies might be the first ones to move out of the cooler waters of the basin back into warmer waters of the shallows in the spring, or during other times that they switch temperature locations. This could be part of the reason why they are so elusive. They are always slightly ahead of the pattern. This could be why the big ones sometimes get caught on the "wrong spot" or opposite location of the rest of the population of muskies. The exception to the rule with the Okaboji muskies was when they stayed in the water temperature waters of shallow bays with vegetation. They stayed in the warmer water of the weeds pushing the threshold of their upper limit of water temperature tolerance even though there was cooler water available nearby. This got me thinking about my home waters that I fish and comparing the one end of the lake with the hot rock bite next to the main lake basin vs the big weedbed bite on the other end of the lake. We have also caught numerous muskies in the weedbed area later into the summer whereas the rock spot absolutely shut off before the summer got too hot. Now why would they stay in the warmer shallows with weeds available but not on the rocks in the warmer shallows? This got me thinking. Perhaps the weeds offer more benefits to the musky. The weeds offer shade, cover/security, more oxygen, and baitfish. The rocks offer some solar heat to warm up the water in the springtime so they are a hotspot then. That same warming effect could probably be the reason why baitfish come into the rocky area also. So it's good early on. There is warm water and baitfish. But then once the temps get higher as summer goes on the warming effect isn't needed. The baitfish don't need it then either so they leave. So what's left for benefits? Nothing. Result: Rock muskies head out into the basin earlier. Now the weeds are in less comfortable water but still offer 4 benefits compared to the rock water. It doesn't mean the muskies on that half of the lake like warm water better. I think they stay DESPITE the water temperature because there is just too much else to offer to leave the area. Maybe they slip off a little ways and check back in depending on weather but I doubt they pickup camp and head to the other end of the lake. So this kind of explains why the rocks are good in the cold and can be good early in the year and again in fall. Plus in the fall when the weeds die off there goes the oxygen and there goes the baitfish so back to the rocks they go. Now I'm not saying I have it all figured out but it does tie together a lot of the questions I've had about where did they go and why did they leave one area so soon when it was such a great bite a few weeks before. My ultimate goal is to try and pattern them throughout the seasons and stay on top of them. The first part of doing this is being able to leave a spot that was hot but isn't producing now, rather than wasting all day on that spot hoping. Now I can use this information to try and figure out where they are going next and cut them off and migrate with them. So when the whole crowd is pounding that spot that was on fire 2 weeks ago but is a ghost town today, I can be over on that spot that looks like nothing that's really a travel route to their next seasonal hotspot. If these theories are right I can save a lot of time by not fishing waters that don't hold fish and instead be on the spots that do when the fish turn on. Any thoughts on this? | ||
| Sidejack |
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Posts: 1084 Location: Aurora | An additional factor in favor of their preference for weeds despite water temp could be better water quality. Weeds = more surface area = increased colonization of beneficial microorganisms = better water | ||
| jlong |
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Posts: 1937 Location: Black Creek, WI | The Fall cool down is beginning. Who is watching their temp gauges and making decisions based on it? Anyone finding new successes after "digesting" all the theories shared on this thread and trying something new? Would be nice to know if any of our winternet discussions help put more/bigger fish in the boat for some of you. | ||
| jaultman |
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Posts: 1828 | Haven't been out in 9 days, but... Saturday before last, had classic pre-frontal conditions. Water temp was about 76. found a couple fish but not much. Slight cold front came through, air temps dropped 10 deg for the next couple days and water temp fell to 72-73 by Tuesday. Tuesday, found a bunch of fish on the same (shallow) spots and caught a few of them. Tuesday was also pre-frontal as another small high pressure system landed. Not saying those fish suddenly showed up and got so active based on water temp alone. | ||
| ulbian |
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Posts: 1168 | Over the past few years I've been paying much closer attention the when fish really pack up into the shallows and pay attention to other things that might be a tip-off (besides temp) that it is about to occur. It's remained fairly consistent that once water temps surpass that 72-73 mark you can find fish holding shallow when water temps are cooling down. Once that sun pops up and water starts warming they leave. The past few years this has opened up many more skinny water opportunities besides just this late summer/early fall cool down. Earlier in the summer the windows are not very big and might only be 30-45 minutes but as more extreme temp fluctuations occur these windows get bigger. It does mean that you will have to be on the water before sunrise. Once the sun gets above the trees on the horizon she shuts down. As the summer progresses into "early fall"" that window opens more and more until a more significant temp drop like we've had over the past few days. That opens the window up to an all day type of deal for a few days or a couple of weeks. So....this isn't just something that you have to wait for to happen in late August/early September. These cooling shallow water opportunities can start showing up as early as June. It just depends on what your water temp range and fluctuations are. | ||
| jlong |
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Posts: 1937 Location: Black Creek, WI | Agreed. It occurs all year long. However, the fall seasonal cool down is the most predictable... as it ALWAYS cools down in the fall.  | ||
| BrianF. |
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Posts: 284 Location: Eagan, MN | So, fish hold in skinny water in the early a.m. as the sun begins to warm the shallows. For me, this shallow movement seems to peak a couple of hours after sunrise and last until the noon hour or just beyond. As the day wears on into afternoon, something seems to change. No more fish contacts or the aggressiveness is just not there. Any one else notice this transition later in the day?? If so, what do you think is going on?? How do you anticipate this transition and proactively change your approach to stay on active fish?? Brian | ||
| jlong |
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Posts: 1937 Location: Black Creek, WI | Not sure why I'm answering BrianF... as we have discussed this theory at length together in the past. In simple terms... I think comfort AFTER (cool nights, cold front, big winds, etc.) and feeding locations during stability. This could be a daily transition from shallow (morning) to deep(er) in the evening. Also, comfort zones may not always be shallower, especially if there is wind increasing mixing of the water column. I think fish get into a cycle of FEED and RECOVERY. They may be recovering from feeding (optimize their metabolism in preparation for their next meal) or to recover from environmental changes... in this case... water temperature changes (even a 1/2 degree can be significant). Just like there are seasonal movements... there are daily movements as well. Understanding what drives those movements is the tricky part. | ||
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