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Muskie Fishing -> General Discussion -> Vertical Hold
 
Message Subject: Vertical Hold
FishFinder87
Posted 6/13/2014 2:08 AM (#715373)
Subject: Vertical Hold





I see a lot of "big-name" musky fishermen on several websites who constantly advocate the importance of proper musky handling and to always keep the fish horizontal in pictures, handle for as little as time possible, and release.. However, lately I've seen many of these same people vertically holding trophy northern pike.. Unless they are being pickled, wouldn't these fish suffer the same problems as a musky handled and released that way? I'm not trying to push any buttons, but am just curious.. Just because it's 'only a pike', does that fish's fate no longer matter? I've seen at least a dozen 30-50 inch pike held vertically in pics over the last month by people that would have a fit if they saw the same pics of muskies being held that way.
FYGR8
Posted 6/13/2014 5:12 AM (#715376 - in reply to #715373)
Subject: RE: Vertical Hold





I agree! Just saw a pic on Facebook recently that brought that same thought to mind. I am sure there is a good excuse as to why with pike it does not matter.
ToddM
Posted 6/13/2014 8:43 AM (#715406 - in reply to #715373)
Subject: Re: Vertical Hold





Posts: 18064


Location: oswego, il
Vertical holds are not good. Vertical holds while holding a tiny fish for a picture should get the death penalty.;-)
Minnows 2 Muskies
Posted 6/13/2014 8:57 AM (#715411 - in reply to #715373)
Subject: Re: Vertical Hold




Posts: 65


Location: Garrison, Mn
Can someone comment on why holding the fish vertical is bad. I'm ignorant on the issue. People ask me and I say b/c that is just why they say. Why is this bad? Blood flow? Thanks in advance
horsehunter
Posted 6/13/2014 9:12 AM (#715416 - in reply to #715373)
Subject: Re: Vertical Hold




Location: Eastern Ontario
Let me pick you up by the ear.
bryantukkah
Posted 6/13/2014 9:44 AM (#715425 - in reply to #715416)
Subject: Re: Vertical Hold




Posts: 295


horsehunter - 6/13/2014 10:12 AM

Let me pick you up by the ear.


Let me drag you across the floor by 3 treble hooks lodged in your head.
samuwenn
Posted 6/13/2014 10:51 AM (#715443 - in reply to #715373)
Subject: Re: Vertical Hold





Posts: 163


Location: NoDak
Dislocates and breaks there jaws after they weigh more than 12 pounds or so
FishFinder87
Posted 6/13/2014 10:53 AM (#715445 - in reply to #715373)
Subject: Re: Vertical Hold





Vertically holding the fish can injure the jaw, skeletal vertebrae, and internal organs.. Think about it- you are holding 25+ pounds by a piece of cartilage that was not meant to support all that weight.. Would not be much different than holding you by your jaw and spending a couple minutes hanging that way taking pictures..it would hurt. But, if you were laid down sideways and properly supported, no harm done. I am no expert however, and would imagine others will chime in... Though my problem is more with the fact that some "professionals" jump on peoples' backs and call them out for stuff (often without knowing the full story), yet have no problem posting pictures of them or their clients doing the same exact thing with a different species.. I just feel that a trophy pike deserves the same treatment that a trophy musky does.. but I may be in the minority- that's why I posted the question.. to hear other peoples' thoughts.


Edited by FishFinder87 6/13/2014 10:59 AM
jaultman
Posted 6/13/2014 10:54 AM (#715446 - in reply to #715411)
Subject: Re: Vertical Hold




Posts: 1828


Minnows 2 Muskies - 6/13/2014 8:57 AM

Can someone comment on why holding the fish vertical is bad. I'm ignorant on the issue. People ask me and I say b/c that is just why they say. Why is this bad? Blood flow? Thanks in advance


It's just that the whole weight of the fish must be carried by the spine. Fish, in water, are not really subject to their weight, so they are not constructed with means to hold their body weight with any individual muscle group or skeletal structural group. It's especially unnatural for them to be hanging vertically by the gill.

A human being lifted off the ground by the ear is a bad example. A human being lifted off the ground by the jaw is a better example, maybe even fair.
ToddM
Posted 6/13/2014 11:09 AM (#715454 - in reply to #715373)
Subject: Re: Vertical Hold





Posts: 18064


Location: oswego, il
How about by their jaw and run a 400 yard dash while holding their breath and yours? Now who wants to hold a small fish?!

Edited by ToddM 6/13/2014 11:10 AM
muskyrat
Posted 6/13/2014 12:01 PM (#715464 - in reply to #715454)
Subject: Re: Vertical Hold




Posts: 455


The main reason not to do it is everybody will ream you out. The idea that any verticaly held big fish will die has been proven wrong many times over but there really is no reason not to just play it safe. A guy Named Steve Rusterberg tagged a bunch of 50" fish held them vertical and recaptured them. I have had similar results although not intentional. A few fish that ended up trying to jump out of my hands and so forth I had to hold the jaw rather than let them flop on the floor. Recaptured those fish myself. In most cases the fish will be ok. I`m not saying it`s ok to do it just that if you slip up pulling a fish out of the net or livewell it most likely will be fine. No need to stress out thinking you killed it.
sworrall
Posted 6/13/2014 2:15 PM (#715481 - in reply to #715373)
Subject: Re: Vertical Hold





Posts: 31613


Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
I eat those Pike. We have a very nice cooler full of Pike fillets onboard now. So rest easy, I beat them over the head and filleted them.
Minnows 2 Muskies
Posted 6/13/2014 2:21 PM (#715482 - in reply to #715373)
Subject: Re: Vertical Hold




Posts: 65


Location: Garrison, Mn
Thanks for the info, I'm 100% self taught when it comes to fishing, so I never knew why people said don't hold them vertical. I just knew it as something you don't do, makes total sense now. I'm not a big photo or measurement guy so most of my fish I let them shake loose at the boat. The ones I've photographed I grabbed them by the jaw and brought them vertically into to boat before holding horizontally for the photo. I have a deep V so I'm not sure that I could bring one horizontally out of the water. What are others doing?, same as me or do they have some special technique.
Brozz88
Posted 6/13/2014 2:37 PM (#715483 - in reply to #715482)
Subject: Re: Vertical Hold




Posts: 216


Well you start by pulling it outa the net or water by the jaw and as soon as you can get a hand under the belly to support it you do so. Horizontal as quick as you can is defiantly better on the fish, Regardless if it's been tried and fish were recaught and lived it can't be good for a big fish.smaller fish I don't think it puts as much pressure on them cuz they don't weigh as much.pics look much better horizontal also, better estimate at actuall size and they look more natural and alive not a hanging dead looking fish
FishFinder87
Posted 6/13/2014 2:51 PM (#715487 - in reply to #715373)
Subject: Re: Vertical Hold





sworrall, this wasn't really directed at you personally..and I have no problem if people are legally harvesting them.. I just think its hypocritical of a couple others that get pretty bent out of shape when people keep or mishandle a musky or even keep a limit of walleye for the table but then have no problem posting pics of trophy pike held vertically.. I'm not going to call anyone out individually on it, just wanted to know if I was the only one who noticed that.. and clearly I am not.

Edited by FishFinder87 6/13/2014 2:52 PM
MuskyKarma
Posted 6/13/2014 3:20 PM (#715492 - in reply to #715373)
Subject: Re: Vertical Hold





Posts: 164


Location: Metro, MN
There is a difference between a pike and a musky for mortality. Many people, including myself eat the occasional pike. I hold pike vertical all the time and they always take off splashing my face when released. I will never hold a muskie vertical because for some reason they are more susceptible to stress/holds. Those reasons I don't really know or feel like getting into though.

Now all pike 40+ I would hold horizontally though



Edited by MuskyKarma 6/13/2014 3:30 PM
VMS
Posted 6/13/2014 3:30 PM (#715496 - in reply to #715492)
Subject: Re: Vertical Hold





Posts: 3315


Location: Oakdale, Minnesota
MuskyKarma - 6/13/2014 3:20 PM

There is a difference between a pike and a musky for mortality. Many people, including myself eat the occasional pike. I hold pike vertical all the time and they always take off splashing my face when released. I will never hold a muskie vertical because for some reason they are more susceptible to stress/holds. Those reasons I don't really know or feel like getting into though


I'd really like to hear your reasoning on how a muskie would be any more susceptible to stress/holds than a northern... They are both part of the same basic group of fish...

Steve
MuskyKarma
Posted 6/13/2014 4:04 PM (#715504 - in reply to #715496)
Subject: Re: Vertical Hold





Posts: 164


Location: Metro, MN
I don't know as all pike I've ever held vertically are all 30" class range or less and have always taken off with extreme aggression, more so than a 30" class muskie. Maybe there isn't much of a difference and I would never hold a 40-50" class trophy pike vertically, but it never comes to mind holding techniques for a smaller pike.

Edited by MuskyKarma 6/13/2014 4:05 PM
Landry
Posted 6/13/2014 4:06 PM (#715505 - in reply to #715373)
Subject: Re: Vertical Hold




Posts: 1001


I have felt steelheads vertebrae pop on vert holds. I get my spine adjusted to. It feels great.
I think the whole vertical hold thing is waaaay overstated. Mind you I think a horizontal hold is obvious less harmful or stressful and I choose that method.
Time out of the water is likely a more damaging factor or variable in fish survival.
sworrall
Posted 6/13/2014 4:06 PM (#715506 - in reply to #715373)
Subject: Re: Vertical Hold





Posts: 31613


Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
Just saying, I eat 'em. And they are yummy!
FishFinder87
Posted 6/13/2014 4:58 PM (#715512 - in reply to #715506)
Subject: Re: Vertical Hold





I eat pike as well.. and I have no problem with others doing so.. My only beef is when people publicly call out individuals for holding a musky wrong or legally taking a meal of walleye, but then post pics themselves of trophy pike being held improperly.. Just seems hypocritical is all. Do trophy pike not deserve the same respect as trophy muskies? And again, I'm not expert.. but I don't really buy that it is any less hard on a pike then it would be a musky.. I'm not sure how bad it is on either, but I would sure think if it hurts one, it would hurt them both. I do feel that pike are a lot more prevalent, easy to find, and have more resilient populations and fisheries in the midwest then muskies.. so I'm not against keeping some for a meal.. But is it not hypocritical to post pics of oneself and their clients holding trophy pike vertically, then publicly shame others for doing the exact same thing with muskies or for keeping a limit of walleye? And again, I'm not trying to call anyone out individually here, just curious what people think. It sounds like I'm not the only one who has noticed some of the recent pics from people who some would consider ambassadors of our sport. I just felt it was worth a discussion and some food for thought is all.
sworrall
Posted 6/13/2014 9:54 PM (#715555 - in reply to #715373)
Subject: Re: Vertical Hold





Posts: 31613


Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
Any 'trophy' Pike I release gets the same 'respect' as a Muskie, but that is personal. Totally depends on the waters I am fishing. Can't speak for whomever else.

Generally, no, Pike do not generate the same respect from many anglers or this probably would be called PikeFIRST. Why? You listed some of the reasons. Hypocritical? I would not choose that word, but that's me. Keeping a limit of Walleye? Really, some muskie guy is blasting folks for keeping Walleye? Again, depends on the water.

Some areas it's a good idea to limit your catch, not catch (and keep) your limit, others, like Lake of the Woods, MN, keeping some saugers and 'eyes is not an issue at all and a slot limit is in place to protect the big girls.

Ask the same question of some of the top Pike anglers over the big pond.

We just came from Devils Lake, where the DNR is nearly begging folks to harvest Pike; there are far too many....and they are NICE, averaging over 5 pounds. On any given day, 50 Pike per angler fishing for walleyes with Flickershads and quite a few in the class some folks would call 'trophy'. We boated about 30 in 4 hours and were not even close to the best Pike waters in the system.

If I caught a 44 there, back it would go because I just wouldn't be able to harvest a hog like that.


FishFinder87
Posted 6/14/2014 2:48 AM (#715575 - in reply to #715373)
Subject: Re: Vertical Hold





My post is not about you or any posts you have made Steve. And I'm not going to give specifics, call out people, or even give out bodies of water that may suggest who I am talking about... just speaking in general... and It seems I am not the only one who has picked up on what I'm referring to.. And yes, have seen a couple guys bashing people for keeping limits of walleye for the table and also for holding muskies wrong, only to post pics themselves of vertically held pike... I don't have a problem with a pike being vertically held if legally kept for the dinner plate- I just don't think it is fair for them to then publicly bash others who legally keep other species that they don't guide for or publicly target. Just wanted to see if I was the only one who felt that way, and clearly I am not. As you mentioned you would throw back a 44, you seem to agree that 'trophy' pike should be returned to the water.. And if you agree with that, I don't think it is a stretch to assume you would agree that proper handling and release techniques should be used
sworrall
Posted 6/14/2014 9:46 AM (#715598 - in reply to #715373)
Subject: Re: Vertical Hold





Posts: 31613


Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
Who your post is about only you know. The rest of us are left to postulate in general, I guess.

Yep, should not be a stretch at all. As I said, Any 'trophy' Pike I release gets the same 'respect' as a Muskie, but that is personal.

Not fair? I get you think someone is not giving Pike the respect you feel they deserve. I guess the walleye limit thing bothers you too, not sure why.

From personal experience I don't think a short vertical hold will mortally wound a 28" Pike. I do think it may a 44" Pike, gravity being what it is.
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