Muskie Discussion Forums

Forums | Calendars | Albums | Quotes | Language | Blogs Search | Statistics | User Listing
You are logged in as a guest. ( logon | register )
Moderators: Slamr

View previous thread :: View next thread
Jump to page : 1 2
Now viewing page 1 [30 messages per page]

Muskie Fishing -> Muskie Boats and Motors -> Starting batteries?
 
Reply New post
Message Subject: Starting batteries?
Midge
Posted 4/30/2012 7:51 PM (#556927)
Subject: Starting batteries?


What size starting batteries do you guys use? I've always gotten the smaller ones that are available.

But I've had some issues in the past with newer electronics with GPS draining the battery low when just running and gunning and not giving the battery much time to charge when the motor is running.

I know the bigger deep cycles make sense if you are using the bow mount trolling motor a lot. But am I thing properly that a larger starting battery with more cranking amps would be helpful not so much for starting but for the electronics running?

Thanks
MuskieMike
Posted 4/30/2012 8:27 PM (#556937 - in reply to #556927)
Subject: RE: Starting batteries?





Location: Des Moines IA
I am running the biggest Optima yellow Top, a series 31. I run my stereo, GPS, and 2 sonars off of it. The way I look at it is like this. If I'm out on Milles Lacs, or Lake Michigan, and the wind kicks up life threatening conditions. I #*^@ sure want my motor to start without fail. That's why I spent the extra $ on the big bad boy Optima.
Midge
Posted 4/30/2012 8:30 PM (#556938 - in reply to #556927)
Subject: RE: Starting batteries?


I just read somewhere else online that perhaps a dual purpose starting/deep cycle battery may be better than a pure starting battery if you have a lot of electronics hooked up?

Thoughts?
sworrall
Posted 4/30/2012 9:39 PM (#556961 - in reply to #556927)
Subject: Re: Starting batteries?





Posts: 32829


Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
Yep.
tcbetka
Posted 5/1/2012 6:35 AM (#556999 - in reply to #556961)
Subject: Re: Starting batteries?




Location: Green Bay, WI
That's what I am thinking of doing as well...

Jerry Newman recommended a product called Stealth, which is a charging system to recharge all the batteries on the boat from the engine alternator. So I called the factory and talked to their tech support, and explained what I wanted to do. I was thinking of adding a FOURTH battery, soley for the electronics. But instead, he recommended getting three MAXX-29 marine batteries (from Walmart actually), for like $90 each. Two of these would be for my 24-volt trolling motor, and the other would be the start battery, but then also run the electronics. He said that the extra reserve (these are like 880 cold-cranking amps as I recall) will allow the engine starts while also powering the electronics. So I think I am leaning in that direction.

TB
LarryJones
Posted 5/1/2012 7:15 AM (#557005 - in reply to #556927)
Subject: Re: Starting batteries?




Posts: 1247


Location: On the Niagara River in Buffalo, NY
I also use the Optima 8014-045-FFP yellow top Battery for my starting battery and 2 of the Optima D31M blue top Batteries for my electric trolling motor.I just purchased a new set of all 3 batteries ,cost was $585. The 1st set I purchased went 5 years before getting weak!

Capt. Larry

Edited by LarryJones 5/1/2012 7:18 AM
Midge
Posted 5/1/2012 9:32 AM (#557033 - in reply to #556927)
Subject: RE: Starting batteries?


Worral:

Are you saying yep to getting a starting battery with more cranking amps or saying yep to using a dual purpose battery?
Shep
Posted 5/1/2012 9:49 AM (#557039 - in reply to #557033)
Subject: RE: Starting batteries?





Posts: 5874


Dual Purpose. Get as big as will fit in your space. Group 29 at least. You have an Opti? Make sure it's rated at least 1000 MCA.

While others say good things about the Optima batteries, I'm not a big fan. Not a good value IMO. Cost too much initially, and I don't think they perform as good as less expensive wet-cell or gel-cell batteries. Thy may last a little longer, but certainly not long enough to justify 3 times the price.

I don't think the products that provide charging from the boat motor alternating are really a good application for muskie anglers, who run and gunn all day. Big motor is just not running long enough to make a difference.

I always keep a set of jumper cables in my boat, with a plug for the the rear trolling motor recetacle on one end. They don't have to be a big set either. I bought a small set, in a bag from Fleet Farm. Cut off one end, and attached the TM plug. Put back in the bag, and it's in the glove box. The one time I had an issue with my cranking battery going low was caused by a faulty charger. Simple matter to plug in the jumper cables, and start the motor, compared to swapping out a trolling motor battery on the lake.

Edited by Shep 5/1/2012 9:58 AM
gregk9
Posted 5/1/2012 11:42 AM (#557082 - in reply to #557039)
Subject: RE: Starting batteries?





Posts: 790


Location: North Central IL USA
Shep - 5/1/2012 9:49 AM

I bought a small set, in a bag from Fleet Farm. Cut off one end, and attached the TM plug. Put back in the bag, and it's in the glove box. The one time I had an issue with my cranking battery going low was caused by a faulty charger. Simple matter to plug in the jumper cables, and start the motor, compared to swapping out a trolling motor battery on the lake.


That's a darn good idea!!!
Jerry Newman
Posted 5/1/2012 12:24 PM (#557097 - in reply to #557039)
Subject: RE: Starting batteries?




Location: 31
Shep - 5/1/2012 9:49 AM
While others say good things about the Optima batteries, I'm not a big fan. Not a good value IMO. Cost too much initially, and I don't think they perform as good as less expensive wet-cell or gel-cell batteries. Thy may last a little longer, but certainly not long enough to justify 3 times the price.

I don't think the products that provide charging from the boat motor alternating are really a good application for muskie anglers, who run and gunn all day. Big motor is just not running long enough to make a difference.


OPTIMA/GEL: I'm definitely a gel-cell battery believer, I think they outlast and outperform equally sized wet cells. I'll be the first to admit that the cost sucks initially, but the longevity and not having to worry about spilling battery acid or checking the fluid level deal is worth it to me.

STEALTH: I do agree that in certain applications the big motor is not running long enough to make a difference charging from the boat motor(s) for casting only situations on smaller lakes for instance. However, if you troll and cast equal amounts (or run and gun on systems like LOTW) that Stealth charger does everything it says it will... and then some.

Not only are your batteries charging throughout the day so you have more available power if needed, the batteries themselves last longer because you're not having to charge them back up from a totally discharged state... it basically maintains them. Think of it like this... when you plug your charger in and it jumps to that maximum charge rate every night, it's way hard on those batteries, you can even feel your batteries getting hot sometimes.

BTW, giving credit where credit is due... Joel Mellot (Luke Chine Walker) turned me on to Steath in 2003, Thanks Joe!


tcbetka
Posted 5/1/2012 12:43 PM (#557104 - in reply to #556927)
Subject: Re: Starting batteries?




Location: Green Bay, WI
The Stealth tech support fellow told me that there are people using their product with MAXX-29 marine batteries from Walmart, and getting 6-8 years (or more) on them! It's because of what Jerry says: Lead-acid batteries that do not discharge as completely, won't "sulfonate" as quickly. I once had a battery last over 10 years in a pickup truck; but in all likelihood we aren't going to get nearly that around these parts--cause we're not using the boat often enough. Unless you take all your batteries out of the boat when it's in Winter storage, and then place them on a trickle charger, they are going to discharge. So 5-6 years is likely all the time you're going to get on these things, and if the Stealth charging system gives me that with batteries costing one-third as much (and keep ALL of them charged all the time to boot), then that's worth a lot right there.

TB
LarryJones
Posted 5/1/2012 1:53 PM (#557128 - in reply to #556927)
Subject: Re: Starting batteries?




Posts: 1247


Location: On the Niagara River in Buffalo, NY
Tom,I use the Stay-N-Charge! http://www.stayncharge.com/products.php?cat=7 Capt. Larry
Jerry Newman
Posted 5/1/2012 5:29 PM (#557182 - in reply to #557128)
Subject: Re: Starting batteries?




Location: 31
LarryJones - 5/1/2012 1:53 PM

Tom,I use the Stay-N-Charge! http://www.stayncharge.com/products.php?cat=7 Capt. Larry


That looks like a nice set-up too Larry, I really like the tow and charge option.
tcbetka
Posted 5/1/2012 5:31 PM (#557184 - in reply to #557182)
Subject: Re: Starting batteries?




Location: Green Bay, WI
Yes, I think it looks great as well.

I need to go get my boat so I can get started on it, lol. We are dealing with a couple issues here though, and they've been holding me back some. Need to get started on that stuff though...

TB
Shep
Posted 5/2/2012 7:49 AM (#557289 - in reply to #557184)
Subject: Re: Starting batteries?





Posts: 5874


"Unless you take all your batteries out of the boat when it's in Winter storage, and then place them on a trickle charger, they are going to discharge."

This is simply not true. In fact, the cold temps slow down the rate of self discharge, assuming a fully charged battery, and no drain on it. Before I had this house, I kept my boats outside in the winter. Fully charge the battery, disconnect the cables, and put it to bed for the winter. Come back 3 months later, and the batteries were nearly fully charged. Kept them plugged in during the summer after every trip, and I have had batteries last over 5 years.

Also, Optima are not Gel-Cell batteries. They are AGM, Absorbed Glass Mat, and the electrolyte is Sulfuric acid and water, same as a wet-cell lead-acid battery. They are still considered "wet-cell" technology. They are good batteries, and have some positive features over the traditional batteries I use. But, IMO, they don't offer the same value to me.
gregk9
Posted 5/2/2012 10:09 AM (#557341 - in reply to #556999)
Subject: Re: Starting batteries?





Posts: 790


Location: North Central IL USA
tcbetka - 5/1/2012 6:35 AM

But instead, he recommended getting three MAXX-29 marine batteries (from Walmart actually), for like $90 each. Two of these would be for my 24-volt trolling motor, and the other would be the start battery, but then also run the electronics. He said that the extra reserve (these are like 880 cold-cranking amps as I recall) will allow the engine starts while also powering the electronics. So I think I am leaning in that direction.

TB


But are these dual purpose batteries? The info on the walmart web site is kinda vague.
Shep
Posted 5/2/2012 10:36 AM (#557348 - in reply to #557341)
Subject: Re: Starting batteries?





Posts: 5874


The label on the picture shows 29DC for Deep Cycle. I'd have to go to the Walmart and see if they had a 29DP for Dual Purpose. Website doesn't list it.

I have attached a nice spreadsheet comparison of many marine batteries for your reading pleasure. Interesting that there is no dedicated cranking batteries listed?

Edited by Shep 5/2/2012 10:43 AM




Attachments
----------------
Attachments 2011-Battery-Comparison-Chart.pdf (11KB - 353 downloads)
tcbetka
Posted 5/2/2012 10:36 AM (#557349 - in reply to #557341)
Subject: Re: Starting batteries?




Location: Green Bay, WI
There are different types of MAXX-29 batteries, apparently. Some are start, and some are deep-cycle. You want the deep-cycle.

TB
Shep
Posted 5/2/2012 10:40 AM (#557350 - in reply to #557349)
Subject: Re: Starting batteries?





Posts: 5874


tcbetka - 5/2/2012 10:36 AM

There are different types of MAXX-29 batteries, apparently. Some are start, and some are deep-cycle. You want the deep-cycle.

TB


for your trolling motor batteries. I'd not use a DC for a main motor cranking battery. Not good for them. DP, yes. DC, no.

Of course, this all depends on the size of the main motor, too. If it's any Opti or similar, then you need a DP or cranking battery with 1000MCA.
tcbetka
Posted 5/2/2012 10:46 AM (#557353 - in reply to #557350)
Subject: Re: Starting batteries?




Location: Green Bay, WI
Shep - 5/2/2012 10:40 AM

for your trolling motor batteries. I'd not use a DC for a main motor cranking battery. Not good for them. DP, yes. DC, no.

Of course, this all depends on the size of the main motor, too. If it's any Opti or similar, then you need a DP or cranking battery with 1000MCA.



That's the point...the Stealth guy is telling me that you CAN use a deep-cycle battery for starting, as long as it's correctly rated. So your 1000 cranking amp example should work well, according to their tech support guy. He told me that many of their customers are using these MAXX-29 deep-cycle Walmart batteries for start batteries. I think he said they have about 880 cold cranking amps.

Your mileage may vary, but apparently there are a number of people just exactly what we're talking about...with excellent results.

TB
Slamr
Posted 5/2/2012 11:07 AM (#557359 - in reply to #556927)
Subject: RE: Starting batteries?





Posts: 7012


Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/automotive-batteries-marine-batteries/s-...
attery&viewItems=25&autoRedirect=true&redirectType=CAT_REC_PRED


Just sayin...

Andrew Golden
Manager, Talent Acquisition
Sears Holdings
gregk9
Posted 5/2/2012 11:15 AM (#557365 - in reply to #557353)
Subject: Re: Starting batteries?





Posts: 790


Location: North Central IL USA
tcbetka - 5/2/2012 10:46 AM




That's the point...the Stealth guy is telling me that you CAN use a deep-cycle battery for starting, as long as it's correctly rated.


TB


So that's a CCA number that's relative to your outboard size?
MuskieMike
Posted 5/2/2012 11:16 AM (#557366 - in reply to #556927)
Subject: RE: Starting batteries?





Location: Des Moines IA
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_SPM5885176507P?prdNo=22&bl...

And I thought Optimas were expensive. 650$ for a single battery? Wow .....
tcbetka
Posted 5/2/2012 11:21 AM (#557367 - in reply to #557289)
Subject: Re: Starting batteries?




Location: Green Bay, WI
Shep - 5/2/2012 7:49 AM

"Unless you take all your batteries out of the boat when it's in Winter storage, and then place them on a trickle charger, they are going to discharge."

This is simply not true. In fact, the cold temps slow down the rate of self discharge, assuming a fully charged battery, and no drain on it. Before I had this house, I kept my boats outside in the winter. Fully charge the battery, disconnect the cables, and put it to bed for the winter. Come back 3 months later, and the batteries were nearly fully charged. Kept them plugged in during the summer after every trip, and I have had batteries last over 5 years.

SNIP...




Actually, I somewhat beg to differ. As far as I know, unless stored at absolute zero all batteries discharge to some degree. While you are correct that the rate of self-discharge is lower in colder temps, they will still self-discharge when cold. And whether or not the degree of discharge results in excess sulphation or not is debatable, and probably dependent upon the age and general condition of the battery going in to the storage period.

But the other thing to worry about though with keeping these things cold (as in below-freezing temps), is freezing. In my experience, unless you keep an eye on the level of electrolyte in the battery, you risk it freezing and breaking the plastic case. Of course this is much less likely to happen when the battery has a charge, so I'll agree that providing you can completely isolate the battery from the system, then this would less likely.

Here are a couple references on lead-acid batteries.

http://www.mpoweruk.com/leadacid.htm
http://www.thebatteryterminal.com/TechTalk_Batteries_on_Concrete.ht...

TB
gregk9
Posted 5/2/2012 11:21 AM (#557368 - in reply to #557366)
Subject: RE: Starting batteries?





Posts: 790


Location: North Central IL USA
MuskieMike - 5/2/2012 11:16 AM

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_SPM5885176507P?prdNo=22&bl...

And I thought Optimas were expensive. 650$ for a single battery? Wow .....


Not for me! Not in this lifetime.
Shep
Posted 5/2/2012 11:22 AM (#557369 - in reply to #557359)
Subject: RE: Starting batteries?





Posts: 5874


Called the Walmart and asked the guy to read the label. maxx-29DC, rated at 875ca, 675cca, and 125ah from the label.

No go for my Opti. They may work, but why risk it? Where have I heard that before?

Edited by Shep 5/2/2012 11:24 AM
tcbetka
Posted 5/2/2012 11:24 AM (#557370 - in reply to #557365)
Subject: Re: Starting batteries?




Location: Green Bay, WI
gregk9 - 5/2/2012 11:15 AM
So that's a CCA number that's relative to your outboard size?



Well, his point was that anything over about 800 CCA was adequate. Keep in mind that I have not tried this myself, and am only reporting what I was told by this gentleman. He seemed extremely knowledgeable however, so I have absolutely no reason to doubt what he told me...especially since he (apparently) has may customers doing exactly that.

I would encourage anyone interested to simply give them a call. They have a toll-free number listed here:

http://www.stealth1charging.com/


TB

EDIT: I should add that their product is quite expensive, at about $675 or so for my application. But for what it does and for the tech support they provide, it might be well worth it. I haven't made the final decision yet.

Edited by tcbetka 5/2/2012 11:28 AM
tcbetka
Posted 5/2/2012 11:32 AM (#557373 - in reply to #557369)
Subject: RE: Starting batteries?




Location: Green Bay, WI
Shep - 5/2/2012 11:22 AM

Called the Walmart and asked the guy to read the label. maxx-29DC, rated at 875ca, 675cca, and 125ah from the label.

No go for my Opti. They may work, but why risk it? Where have I heard that before?


What size Opti needs that 1000CCA Shep? Reason I ask is that I just bought a 17 foot Lund with a 115-Opti. I have no idea which battery they have in the boat now as I haven't yet picked it up. But I was thinking of changing to a larger battery to power the electronics I just bought.

What size Optimax do you run? (And how do you like it, by the way?)

TB
Shep
Posted 5/2/2012 12:39 PM (#557397 - in reply to #557373)
Subject: RE: Starting batteries?





Posts: 5874


Tom,

MCA is the appropriate rating to apply. CA is the same, rated at 32 d F.

CCA is about 20-25% less than MCA. Rated at 0d F.

I know my Opti's all required 1000 MCA. 135HP to 200HP. Can't say about the 115. Should be in the manual. Or ask your dealer.

Point is, the Maxx 29DC has 875MCA, and only 675 CCA. Would not meet requirement for my motors.

I have a 200 Opti at present. Been a great motor for 4+ years. Very easy on oil, and fuel if I keep it off WOT! 3rd Opti since 2002, and never had an issue with either of them. I have been in boats with the 90 and the 115 Opti, and they are really nice motors. You will be pleased with your choice.

Edited by Shep 5/2/2012 12:43 PM
Reef Hawg
Posted 5/2/2012 5:41 PM (#557470 - in reply to #556927)
Subject: RE: Starting batteries?




Posts: 3518


Location: north central wisconsin
I read all the techy jargon I could get my hands on 15 years ago or so, related to storage/longevity in batteries when I was having alot issues. The issues were related to how I was treating my batteries. My first revelation was 12-13 years ago, when I realized my developed no memory, purchased my first on-board charger, and began plugging in every time I got home. That portion of the longevity problem solved.

It was about then that I lalso earned it best to keep my batteries in cold storage instead of bringing them in over winter(central WI). Cold storage has added years to the life of my batteries, because I simply walk out to the garage and plug them in twice per winter now. Unless the battery is quite old, it never takes more than a couple minutes to read full charge, so the discharge is negligable compared to keeping them in the heat on trickle and constant wear. I also switched to Dekka Marine Master batteries about 12 years ago and my TM batteries now last over 4 years per set, and up to 6 or more on the starting side. Battery life comes down to care and charging, but also the amount of use/abuse given(charge cycles etc) and the Dekkas take an unbeleivable amount of abuse for the money. I was quite unhappy with the set/s of Walmart yellow Maxx's i ran for a few years(lost batteries while out of town and had to buy in a pinch), losing cells prematurely on 3 of 4. Probably just bad luck, but back on the Dekkas and satisfaction.

Edited by Reef Hawg 5/2/2012 5:52 PM
Jump to page : 1 2
Now viewing page 1 [30 messages per page]
Reply New post
Jump to forum :
Search this forum
Printer friendly version
E-mail a link to this thread

(Delete all cookies set by this site)