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Posts: 1504
Location: Oregon | This video clip was done on Oregon Public Broadcasting for ethanol and I thought some here might like to see it.
http://www.opb.org/programs/ofg |
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| Good video. That's why I don't use fuel with ethanol in my boat. |
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Location: Des Moines IA | Ethanol cost me 1400$ on my suzi, had to have the fuel regulator, fuel lines, injectors cleaned, and all the filters changed. Now I hear Iowa wants to mandate atleast 10% ethanol in all it's gas. I understand it helps our economy, but an exception needs to be made for marine motors. |
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Posts: 91
| What brands of fuel do not contain ETHONOL? |
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Posts: 307
| Everything in MN has had 10% ethanol for years and years. With the exception of a few pumps here and there designated for collector cars, off road, and marine. Everyones boat has not blown up in this state as far as I know. There is a lot of misinformation out there when it comes to ethanol. Most of it is put out by people with something to either gain or lose with its use or non use. Think big oil companies. As well as ethanol companies, but not quite to the extent of big oil.
Edited by Plunker 2/23/2010 1:52 PM
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| most stations that have 90 or 93 octane will not have ethanol in it. The price is a little more but go get your injectors or carburetors cleaned or replaced once! A little trick I learned is use sea foam at every fill up, cleans the residue out that ethanol leaves behind. |
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| The emphasis on ethanol in fuels can be seriously questioned. When you burn your food for fuel, something isn't right. I have spoken to many outboard mechanics about ethanol and I'm convinced that it simply isn't good for outboard motors. |
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Posts: 3480
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | Hi everyone,
Lots of things being stated here, but I'm not sure the whole story is out there on this...
Couple of major things with Any Ethanol Based product for your engine
1. If you let it sit in your tank, temperature changes can cause water vapor to condense, due to on-board fuel tanks needing to be vented. So...over time, the heating and cooling can create quite a bit of water in the tank, which settles to the bottom, along with any particulates carried into the tank via water vapor. This happens more with Ethanol because Alcohol attracts water.... End result: your fuel line pick-up is at the bottom of the tank...guess what is going in first?
2. The ethanol is an alcohol, which is a solvent. So..any build-up of gunk in your engine, tank, etc will eventually get broken down, little particles break off, and boom...there goes your carbs...
Now...big thing I feel that needs to be emphasized here is this: If you use ethanol in your engine, it will do just fine...so long as you don't let the gas sit there for huge amounts of time to let larger amounts of water form in your tank, AND you have your engine thoroughly decarbonized, cleaned, etc, so that all the little particulates, gel, etc. are removed before using the ethanol.
The stuff works just fine in your car...reason? You readily use the gas and refill, so everything stays nice and clean in your fuel system. In an outboard, though, not so much the case for many of us....unfortunate as that may be. If we used our equipment day in and day out, almost every day of the year, these problems would not exist.
This is a HUGE reason why many of the larger boats now have fuel-water separators on them....Definitely a good preventative measure to keep performance up on your engine. Also, most tanks being plastic on board and now portable take away any sort of rust breaking off..should be good to go there.
Change the fuel filter, change your plugs, and use the gas frequently and oxygenated gasoline will work just fine...
Alternative here in MN....
BP stations in many locations in Minnesota carry non-oxygenated gasoline (ethanol free) and is usually a 91 octane. I use this because I feel my motor runs smoother on it over oxygenated 89 octane.. That is due to higher octane, though...not the alcohol content. 91 octane is more stable burning than 89.
No matter what you use, there is a major requirement of the owner to take care of the engine. Older engines require changing out fuel lines so they have alcohol resistant lines (like in your car), that saves the breakdown in the line, and my recommendation is for storage of smaller engines is to run them dry, fog the cylinders and be done with it...if you can store it inside in a cool area of a basement, so much the better.
If you live in a winter climate, the condensation issue is not so much a factor...too cold to get condensation outside, so the tank is relatively safe. Good stabilizer keeps the octane up, but condensation should not be an issue. If anything, go squeeze the bulb a few times to keep the lines full of fuel...
Steve |
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Posts: 426
Location: Perryville, MO | Great post, Steve (spot on). But while I agree with everything you said, I find it interesting that you still aren't using ethanol. I know, your concern is the octane and not the alcohol. But still somewhat telling. Again, I really do agree with you. Maintence is everything. Alright, maintence and using the gas regularlly so that it doesn't have time to separate. But I'd still like the option to not worry about my carbs gumming up. Can't do it here in Missouri at a gas station, but I can get it from my local farmers. Now that's just crazy! Yeah, the farmers who are selling the food to be turned into gas around here, don't like running the stuff in their machinery. C'mon, that's nutty! And without sounding like an conspirist (and still supporting the farmers who I dearly love) there's better ways to make gas than corn, and that's just plain facts. BTW, sea foam is a great product and worth the money for my investment. Just my 2 cents!
Edited by hawkeye9 2/24/2010 5:52 PM
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Posts: 3480
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | Hiya,
I also run a higher compression engine, compliments of Hydrotec marine. I should preface this as well that when I know I am going to be burning a bunch of gas (like in Canada) I will fill up with 89 octane and burn through it all and never carry more than I need. If I can avoid using it, I do, just because the motor runs better on the 91...and that could very well be due to not just smoother burning, but to water collection of the oxygenated gas as well...I don't know... I just use what I find works best for my engine...91 works best for me... If it didn't exist, I'd use the 89, but I would make darn sure I use it all and not let it sit for any long period of time. I do agree with you, though, that having the choice would be great!! I know a bunch of classic car guys who would much rather run non-oxygenated gas in their "babies" so to speak...
I have tried running the E-85 gas in my wifes truck once in a while and with that stuff, it burns nice and it is cheaper, but....on a cost savings analysis, it actually cost MORE to run the E85 than regular gasoline. It just didn't give the mpg that gasoline does, so in all, I ended up filling up more (roughly 3 to 2) for the same distances traveled. It does make me wonder what kind of mpg my truck would get on regular 87 octane without Ethanol blend.
I use seafoam as well, but I usually use it as hard deep-cleaning shot to the motor....If I can get it in the carbs without making a mess I'll do that, but the pressurized items (mercury powertune) does the same thing without the mess... really brings back the power in the engine.
Steve
Edited by VMS 2/24/2010 6:51 PM
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Posts: 426
Location: Perryville, MO | Thanks, Steve I'll check out mercury powertune. Again, your post was great...I certainly appreciated it. |
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Posts: 433
Location: Cedarburg, Wisconsin | On the truck mileaage issue, when my 96 Chevy 4X4 with the 350 cid V8 was fairly new, I switched off burning crap gas with the real stuff every other tankfull if I could. I'd run the tank pretty near dry and then fill up. Kept detailed mileage notes for almost 12,000 miles. This was the results as best as I can remember: The crap gas was consistantly 1 1/2 to 2 mpg lower. I got 11 in the city vs 13 with real gas, and 13 towing vs 15 with real gas. The best I ever did was 17 on the highway with the crap gas and hit 21 with the air on in mid summer with real gas. The only thing alcohol in gas is good for is making people that make alcohol richer and keeping mechanics busy. We've been hosed again. What was that old saying about telling the big lie often enough and people will start to believe it? |
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Posts: 3480
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | Hiya,
It is well known that the oxygenated gas will not be as efficient...so a loss of mpg is not surprising as you see (I know I have been curious as to how my truck would do as well). That loss in mpg is due to alcohol not being as efficient as a fuel source...doesn't make it bad stuff, but there is a price since it does not contain the same output as real gas. If anything, I feel the changing over to the more products with alcohol in them is just a band-aid until someone out there finds a very inexpensive renewable resource that will still give people the power for their vehicles that normal fuels do. Not sure it will happen in our lifetimes, but I do feel pretty positive it will.
So...not so sure it is a "hosing" so to speak....it's a short term fix for a long-term problem.... And...being in a free market country as we are, people will get rich off of things at the expense of others...that is just the name of the game, whether we like it or not...unfortunately.
Steve |
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Posts: 15
Location: East Central WI | Some good points. Especially VMS. Are you in the gas business, a mechanic, a chemist?
I look for straight gas, but it is getting hard to find. I've used gas w/ 10% ethanol at least 50% of the time, I've added Stabil or Sea Foam during season and for storage. So far, so good. I run a 2004 225 Opti. I'll try the merc. power up, or boost, or whatever it was called. Man, those spark plugs are expensive!!! |
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Posts: 3480
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | Hiya,
Nope..none of those listed...just a simple minded mathematics teacher who is curious about things (a lifelong learner so to speak) so I do a bit of homework before jumping to conclusions. I'm one of those "motorheads" so to speak with simple carbed outboards...looking to get everything I can out of it, so researching the possibilities (in this case fuel) was part of that reasearch.
I have heard the opti plugs are quite expensive...I think I would be holding off on changing them as often as I do for my simple 90hp yamaha 2 stroke. Those plugs get changed every spring, right after it's first big run to burn out all the fogging oil. This year, it will wait just a tad longer since I didn't decarbonize last fall....so an extra run will be in order.
Steve |
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Posts: 620
Location: Seymour, WI | There is an excellent article with detailed pictures about ethanol use in outboards in this months Muskie Magazine. One of the things that caught my attension was they indicated that you should not mix ethanol gas with non ethanol gas. So you'll need to decide ahead of time which blend you are going to use an then make sure you stick with it.
Grass |
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