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| if i can be so bold as to get away from any finger-pointing and trying to figure out who was to blame, or who's trying to spin what happened to make it look like they're the good guys and the other side's the bad guys...
irregardless of the legalities of measuring and photographing fish, the situation was a bad one. here are the bottom lines:
- will the PMTT or a different major trail hold a muskie tournament here again?
i doubt it.
- will the PMTT or a different major trail hold a muskie event on any US/Canadian border waters in the near future?
i doubt it.
- will some people choose to stay away from these waters even for non-tournament fishing out of fear of being ticketed during the CPR process?
probably.
- some people may see this as a successful effort to chase off tournaments from their home waters, but due to a combination of poor planning and/or overzealous enforcement...who's really going to lose because of this?
local businesses, on both sides of the border.
- who can put the most effective pressure on law enforcement around this issue?
local businesses, on both sides of the border...
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Posts: 221
Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
So they did use judge boats in Canada the 1st day according to the angler who was approached by MNR wardens.
If that's the case, than the PMTT shouldn't be trying to make this out to be
that Canada was unreasonable in it's actions.
JS |
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Posts: 32934
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I still want to know if it's OK to measure, photo, and release my next 53.9999" fish in Canada.
John, agreed.
lambeau, I don't think it's an issue of 'scaring off' anyone as it sounds like the MNR folks were quite reasonable, it's an issue of what needs to be done to be legal. Lots of conjecture, seems like, and little hard fact. If we can't find out what is the norm up there, then your third statement will apply to me. Darn it, I was planning on heading up to the Soo this fall for a weekend Muskie trip, too.
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| lambeau, I don't think it's an issue of 'scaring off' anyone as it sounds like the MNR folks were quite reasonable, it's an issue of what needs to be done to be legal.
there is a LOT of discretion in law enforcement.
it can be done very strictly as written or more subjectively to achieve the intent of protecting fish/ensuring successful release.
aggressive/strict enforcement, even if done politely, scares people off and can be used as a tool to accomplish that goal. if someone doesn't want tournaments around, hassling them (even politely) with rigorous enforcement of vaguely worded laws is a good way to achieve that goal.
and it begs the question, why do you suppose the officers were out in force aggressively (but politely) enforcing the laws with participants in this event?
it's the same as sucker fishing in nothern WI every fall...vague definitions of the law open to interpretation by the warden. someone calls to complain about the "trolling" going on and they make sure they know which wardens are going to respond to their call...
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Posts: 32934
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | From what I can tell, this issue was not unlike your last example.
I still want to know what the actual, reality based enforcement is. What is acceptable? I'm putting in a call to the Ontraio MNR to get a ruling. |
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | Out of season I dont believe you can take a picture of the fish in your boat, it must be released out of the net. You could get a release shot, but I dont believe you can bring the fish into your boat. In season I believe it is legal to measure and get a quick photo and release it.
Thats not really unreasonable to me. Somewhere, the exact location escapes me, you cannot do anything with an un-tagged Steelhead besides remove the hook and get it out of the net. |
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| Absolutley LEGAL, to net, unhook measur and take a picture of a sublegal.
The problem was, in the format of the tourny, the anglers had to hold on to the fish until a judge boat arrives, which could take how long????
The fact they had to wait several minutes(how many???) until a judge boat came, meant that they are now in POSSESION of a fish and not releasing it in a timely manner. Pretty cut and dry actually.
As part of MCI, we are asked to take measurments and recordings of ALL fish we catch and forward this info to the MNR, to help them establish rules and regulations for specific bodies of water. We are not fined for doing this. |
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Posts: 929
Location: Rhinelander. | I mentioned this awhile back, why does anyone want to take pictures of barely legal fish? Sure if its your 1st or 2nd,or if there is a special meaning to the catch I understand. What I don't understand is why guys feel the need to take a picture of every fish they catch. Some of these same guys complain about the way fish are handled in a tournament. Yet they handle every fish for a picture. This just does not make sense to me.
Pfeiff |
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| We got home and made a call to canada to clear the netting thing up. We were told that the Conservation license was the problem. With that license you are allowed no musky period. You may net the fish to remove the hooks but it must be released at that time. To bring it into the boat to measure it would be against the law because you are allowed 0 muskies with conservation license. With a sportsmans license I can net and bring the fish into the boat for a measurement to see if it is legal. If it is undersize it must be released at that time to keep it for pictures would be to take control of a sub legal fish. To hold it and wait for a judge would be in violation and I am not allowed to take a picture of the sub fish. With the conservation license it would ot matter if the fish was 60in. because you are not allowed to measure it.The book says you may fish for musky but you may not take control of one. |
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| To all,as Will mentioned "Gain Intent" either a conservation license or reg license a sub legal fish penned in a net waiting for a judge boat is considered possession
The Con license may have been an issue also
a quick photo and immediate release is at the discretion of the CO,if he views excessive handling you could be charged,In most cases they overlook it.There is no gain intent involved,again its at the discretion of the officers witnessing the situation
Steve W,if the walleye tourney did such weigh fish after verifying slot and fish were under slot size,They exposed themselves to fish and game violations,the CO simply overlooked it
Its Ironic,because its not your way its wrong,respect thy neighbor and their ways,there wont be a problem
TKS John S,Will and Woodie for seeing things as they are
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| Call me a rebel and a law breaker but I still envision myself buying a conservsation license and measuring and taking photos of sub-legal Canadian fish. Will the rest of you now be buying a regular license? |
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| "fish for muskies but not take control of one" Please tell me how to safely release a muskie without taking control of it! Dumbest thing I have ever heard of. |
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Posts: 929
Location: Rhinelander. | guest I agree. once you have them in the net thats pretty muc being in control of them. Maybe control is a bad choice of words.
Pfeiff |
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Posts: 221
Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
I think control refers to measuring and pictures as stated in an earlier post.
Unhooking in the net and immediately releasing in water is the "legal" procedure when you have a conservation liscense.
JS |
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Posts: 32934
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | marc,
'Steve W,if the walleye tourney did such weigh fish after verifying slot and fish were under slot size,They exposed themselves to fish and game violations,the CO simply overlooked it'
The Pros were measuring walleyes on the water during the event using a bump board to see IF fish were undersize at the Can/AM, and weighing over-slots and making a decision as to whether they would keep the walleye or not. That was exactly my point.
They all had seasonal licenses, though. Since I posted that comment it's become clear the problem was contestants with Conservation Licences holding fish and contestants intending to hold Sub Legals with ANY license waiting for a judge boat, accelerating the issue with the perceived intent of the PMTT to send the field out 'targeting' sub legal fish.
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| After all the discussion and clarification I can see a big difference between catching an undersized muskie, photo and release for your personal satisfaction. And holding a tounament and using undersize fish for the purpose monetary gain. Apparantly Canada doesnt want their muskie resource being used so someone can win money. I understand the purpose of the canadian regs and would say if you have a muskie tourney in canada you better not be taking photos of undersize fish and you need a reg license. You may not agree with the law but you should follow it. |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | yup ... i caught a 50-something sub-legal musky in canada and didn't take the picture ... d'ooooohhhhhhh ... flop, splash, crap!!! |
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Posts: 240
| I had a conversation with Mark Robins of Ontario Ministry of Natural resources on the subject of taking a picture of Sub legal Muskies. As it is written in the Books, you can not take pictures of Sub legal fish as you would be deemed in possession of that fish. Having said that, Mark points out that there probably has not been anyone charged with taking a picture of a sub-legal muskie. They have given their Officers some discretion on the matter. Their primary concern is the safe handling and release of the Muskie. This is very hard to legislate in the rules as that would create huge gray areas. They have this rule as a tool to use on anglers that are not safely handling and releasing a muskie in a timely matter.
So from what I was told, if you are handling a muskie and taking a picture in a fast and timely matter that facilitates the safe release of the fish, you will not be bothered and ticketed by an Ontario MNR officer. If everyone does there job and has the fish out of the water for no more then 30 seconds for quick picture, all is good.
Regards
Cory Toker
Edited by Cory Toker 9/19/2008 5:09 PM
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Posts: 929
Location: Rhinelander. | Do you think him saying that would stand up in court if another warden issued the ticket? I would not chance it. I also think that on lakes where your allowed to keep fish it could lead to more kept fish?
Pfeiff |
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Posts: 240
| Not sure what you mean about other lakes and kept fish? What he said was that having the regulations the way it is gives them a tool to use if they have to. He also said no one to his knowledge has ever been charged in possession of a sub legal fish while taking a picture and releasing the fish. It is there as a tool for when someone badly mishandles a fish and keeps it out of water and in the boat for to long.
Cory
P.S check your pm |
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