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Location: Seattle | I'm aware that tigers(hybrids) are sterile. But have often wondered if they would still go through the general motions of spawning. Such as moving into the shallows,stagging etc.... Would they naturally be instinctive to do this?
My guess would be yes,however I'm not a biologist and have no evidence to back this up. Has anyone out there seen any evidence to support this.
I appreciate any info.
Thanks
Kevin |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | Good question. My guess is yes, but I have never witnessed Tiger muskies spawning. But according to Becker's "Fishes of Wisconsin." Tiger muskies aren't all sterile, necessarily. So are there second-generation Tiger muskies in any appreciable number? Probably not, as far as I have ever been told. But you should PM Sorno on this, as he works with those fish out west. I would bet that there isn't much he doesn't know about Tiger muskies...
TB |
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Location: Seattle | thanks for the tip. I'll give 'em a PM.
Kevin |
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Location: Ogden, Ut | kevinb - 4/3/2008 9:06 PM
I'm aware that tigers(hybrids) are sterile. But have often wondered if they would still go through the general motions of spawning. Such as moving into the shallows,stagging etc.... Would they naturally be instinctive to do this?
My guess would be yes,however I'm not a biologist and have no evidence to back this up. Has anyone out there seen any evidence to support this.
I appreciate any info.
Thanks
Kevin
Sterility is relative in the hybrid fish world. Gametes may be viable in one or both of the sexes, but the cross may or may not be. In the case of tigers, I think the male tiger has viable gametes, but they will only successfully cross back to a female northern pike (that's all from a very fuzzy memory, so it might not be right, but you get the idea). Another point to consider is that the egg may fertilize, but will not develop past a few cells.
Go through the motions? I thinks so, but I also think it's attenuated early. I have no scientific 'proof' of this other than handling a few tigers in my travels and not once ever notice the big scars, etc. that the true muskies exhibit from spawning activity. I do know that I have found them in what I consider to be likely spawning locations in the spring. Now, I don't truly know if they're in those locations because they are trying to spawn, or they are there because the locations happen to coincide with locations that perch use to spawn...my guess is that they hit those spots due to an instinctual drive to reproduce, but when they get there, they find out they're trying to 'do it' in the buffet line. 
S. |
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| sorenson - 4/4/2008 8:26 AM
...but when they get there, they find out they're trying to 'do it' in the buffet line.
S.
Never _ _ _ _ where you eat! |
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Location: Seattle | I appreciate the input. Out west here..Its a little difficult to get good information.
Here in Washington State,we only have 7 lakes stocked with Tigers(hopfully more in the future)I have recently seen muskies here moving into the shallows but any time I mention this around the northwest,a serious fire storm begins. We are still trying to educate the general public. They seem to have this idea that the muskies will attack the swimming children and all those other lame stories. haha
Talk to you guys/gals later
Thanks again
Kevin |
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| Witnessed two tigers spawning in Blue Marsh Lake near Reading Pa. Caugth the small one 34 inch. Reaction strike I think. |
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Posts: 178
| I don't know much about the reproductive physiology of hybrid muskellunge; but I have an observation to share regarding their behavior. We sampled the Chippewa Flowage near Hayward, WI with fyke nets in spring of 2006 and again in spring of 2008. Each time we captured more than 100 adult fish -- the largest 51 inches and 41 pounds. Even though WDNR does not stock hybrid muskellunge, we expected to see a few natural hybrids because anglers catch them frequently and send their photos to the local newspaper (Sawyer County Record) for all to see. Some folks even complain about catching too many hybrid muskies in the Flowage -- fearful it indicates there are too many northern pike. Despite frequent appearance in the angler catch, we did not capture a single hybrid muskellunge during our 2006 and 2008 fyke netting surveys, which are timed to coincide with the peak in muskellunge spawning activity at ~50 F. I am not sure what this means, but the probability of a tiger muskellunge mating with a purebred muskellunge in the Chippewa Flowage seems very low, given our observation that they do not seem to be in the same place at the same time.
By the way, the Flowage is about to freeze. We put the fear of steel shot into the last few straggling mallards early this morning as the snow fell. Time to break out the orange clothing...
Dave Neuswanger
Fisheries Team Leader, Upper Chippewa Basin
Wisconsin DNR, Hayward |
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| interesting, Dave, thanks for sharing.
did you catch many/any northern pike in the nets along with the muskies?
it'd be interesting to know whether the tigers are up shallow along with the pike (earlier in the spring) if they aren't there later with the true muskies...
Edited by lambeau 11/12/2008 2:01 PM
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Posts: 178
| lambeau - 11/12/2008 2:00 PM
interesting, Dave, thanks for sharing.
did you catch many/any northern pike in the nets along with the muskies?
it'd be interesting to know whether the tigers are up shallow along with the pike (earlier in the spring) if they aren't there later with the true muskies...
Mike, we did catch northern pike in the nets with the muskies. On the west side of the Flowage in 2006, we captured 3 pike for every muskie. These were not the biggest pike in the lake (most of which presumably spawned a little earlier, at ice-out), but many if not most of the pike in our "muskie nets" were sexually mature fish of intermediate size (18-24 inches). Some of them may have been spawning for the first time.
Dave |
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| Check out the Wingra dam in Madison, late April, early May. The vast majority of muskie there are tigers in Spawn. Not that they will be viable, some may be. They definitely go thru the motions. They have open wounds from grabbing each other. Once they are done, they find themselves surrounded by food. Bluegills, baby bass, shiners, etc,etc. |
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| FishFearMe the vast majority of those fish are not tigers. few are but the majority of the fish are pures. sorry but you are ill informed. maybe because a lot of the pure muskie have bars? |
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| I got that info from a dnr biologist On Fish Hatchery road. I was a youngster in 85-to 90 when they were put in monona, some are spilled over into the creek from the lake. Do a little research at the main office, ask a few questions. They are happy to talk to people about the history of stocking the mad chain w/ tigers. Stocking archives are available if you know who to talk to. |
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| anyone who's been to the spillway and knows the difference between a true and a tiger will tell you that the vast majority of the fish there during the spring run are true muskies. heck, do a search on this site and you'll see posts every spring with pictures of fish jumping the barrier...always true muskies.
as for stocking archives? you don't have to "know who to talk to"...lol...all the records of stocking from 1972-2007 in the entire state are available to anyone who wants to look at them online...
http://infotrek.er.usgs.gov/doc/wdnr_biology/Public_Stocking/StateM...
good numbers of tigers were stocked in Monona many/most years between 1976-1990. (all dead by now.) much smaller numbers were stocked in 1998 (154), 2000 (250), 2001 (2350), and 2003 (275).
Waubesa is about like Monona, with goodly numbers up until 1990. (all dead by now.) then smaller numbers in 1998 (154), 1999 (184), 2000 (2000), 2001 (1650), and 2003 (274).
Wingra has not gotten any tigers since 1990, though some definitely get into it by swimming upstream.
by contrast, true muskies have been stocked in all the lakes pretty much every year, far far outnumbering any tigers that are being stocked. the sheer numbers of fish are another reason that true muskies outnumber the incidental tiger seen at the spillway in the spring.
you get some pretty "barred" muskies in Madison, not to be confused with tigers.
Edited by lambeau 12/17/2008 10:39 PM
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Location: Madison WI | I have to agree with lambeau on this one, but I must point out that there are more tigers in wingra creek in the spring then anyone wants to admit. I saw at least 10 this year. Below is a pic that my buddy took that I figured I would post. I am just trying to confirm that the fish on the left is a tiger. I will say I did see a tiger tanker down there this year.
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| Judging by the picture, it would appear that the fish on the left is a tiger. Tell tale sign being the visible bars and dots on it's back. Pretty cool aerial view and side-by-side comparison of what looks to be a tiger and true strain. |
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| kevin
If Im not mistaken quite a few of your tigers came from Minnesota DNR I know they sent a bunch out there a few years back I think in a swap for salmon/trout??? You might drop the Minn DNR an email,,,,here in the twin cities we have one of the biggest stocked tiger fisheries,,the fish range quite a bit in the spring when the waters high and they can get in creeks and even city drainpipes there are some lakes that have big tigers in that people dont know have them
Edited by happy hooker 12/31/2008 9:36 AM
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