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Posts: 1451
Location: Kronenwetter, WI | Hi--
Totaled my trailer last day out.
Ranger Trail 2005 for 619.
Insurance is looking for a used trailer rather than flipping for a new one. New costs $6300.00.
What is standard practice? Insurance Co. search for used? Insurance flip for new?
Just curious b/c I found out the guy who wrote the policy only insured the trailer for $2,000. Replacement of trailer is $6,300. The total for the rig, of course, was a bit over 40K$...but the paperwork from the dealer did not break down value of boat/motor/trailer....so the insurance guy made up numbers....INCORRECTLY!
SO...anyone ever total out a trailer before? How'd insurance take care of that?
Thanks, |
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Posts: 462
Location: Syracuse, Indiana | Get your policy out and read it. This will control your resolution and rights. Do you have replacement coverage or merely a fixed loss?
Get your agent involved, the one who wrote the policy. He may have liability for any differential (and coverage for it).
Get your attorney involved.
It doesn't sound like you had a new trailer, so I doubt your policy provides for you to receive a new trailer. That said, if you have replacement coverage, and you are offered a specific dollar figure, I suggest you politely ask where you can get the replacement trailer for the amount offered.
Good luck. |
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Location: Athens, Ohio | When I had a deer strike my boat trailer, it boogered up the axle (of course, the one with the brake set on it!). My ins. co. would only pay a de-valued price for the new axle, saying my old one was 10 years old so they depreciated it. That's likely the situation you are in. They covered about half the cost of replacement, but now I have a new axle and a bunch of spare parts from the old one. One topic you may wish to discuss is what becomes of the wrecked one? You may be able to salvage tires, wheels, bearings and all that. m |
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Posts: 2089
| I would think that an 05' would be new enough to qualify for replacement cost vs. actual cash value. From your description, it sounds like the Agent kinda messed up. That's why Agents carry E/O insurance(errors and ommissions).Tell your Agent to ante up his deductible and get you a new trailer! Steve |
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Posts: 114
Location: New London, Wisconsin | A couple things, my opinion only. A boat, trailer, snowmobile or ATV are rarely insured for replacement cost unless your policy state as such. If your total your '05 F-150 you would not expect a '08 in the garage to replace it. I also agree the agent should not have guessed on the trailer value BUT, you, as the insured, must not have reviewed your policy to make sure you had enough coverage on all your schedule items. It is something you need to look at at each renewal. I check NADA on all my "toys" (snowmo, ATV and boat) and lower the values because in the event of a total loss, you will be reimbured market value (NADA, Blue Book and local classified adds are used to come up with the settle ment amount). If your current agent isn't discussing this with you you need to do it yourself. You may want to look for another agent if you feel your's is not earning their keep. Again, I 'm speaking about situations where you are adding riders to your homeowners policy to cover "toys".
Good Luck
Labs
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Posts: 3479
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | I know after I had my first encounter with some granite that my original insurance policy was not a replacement policy...they were going to only allot me a fair market value for the price of what my lower unit would be if it was in working condition. I got a bunch of run-around on it too..
I switched companies...I am now with Boat US and have the whole rig insured as a full replacement in the case of it being totaled. It costs a bit more, but if I do total it, I get the same amount of money as when I purchased it.
Definitely is worth knowing all the numbers and how it works....ASSUME NOTHING!!
Steve |
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Posts: 1451
Location: Kronenwetter, WI | Thanks for sharing your experiences. They want a few weeks to see if they can find a trailer....for my red 05 619...I guess if they can find one used and it's in good condition, I'll be fine with that....
The question I posed to my agent was WHAT IF YOU CANNOT FIND A USED TRAILER?...He hemmed and hawed a bit and I interupted him by pointing out that I have been a long-time customer who has brought additional business to his agency...namely my mom, my mom-in-law, my aunt and uncle, and a family friend...I pointed out that I've never missed a premium payment.
I indicated that my position is going to be that I'm not liable for the difference and that I would expect to be taken care of. I'm giving them a few weeks to locate a trailer.....
I'm hopeful things don't turn sour....I'd hate to have to lawyer up.
Trying to remain optomistic, |
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Posts: 114
Location: New London, Wisconsin | Cowboy---I 'm not trying to be a smart*** but you signed the application for this insurance policy, right??? The time to question values of your personal property is at the time on policy inception not at the time of the loss. I doubt a lawyer will be able to do anything unless your agent forged your signature on your application. Now, a good agent would sit down with you to review your policies and make sure you are covered properly. I hope it all works out for you in the end. By sharing this experience you may have saved someone else the same type of trouble.
Merry Christmas and good luck.
Labs
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| I had a spring snap on my Triton trailer while I was driving that took out my fender and caused some other damage to the trailer. My insurance company totaled out the trailer and paid me the value of a new one.
Go to nada.com and figure out what your boat is worth (boat,motor,trailer) and than compare that to what you have it insured for. If the nada value of the boat is equal or lesser than the amount you have it insured for the trailer should be covered no matter what.
easier yet, if you dont have the trailer titled than you can say that the actual value of the trailer is included in the boat value and the insurance guy made a mistake by stating a value for the trailer.
Either way, good luck! |
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | Unfortunately Labs is right, you signed the app and therefore agreed to the amount of insurance, even if the agent screwed up. Your policy probably reads something like this in the event of a total loss to your trailer...
Pay the lowest of:
- The replacement cost of your trailer.
- The amount actually spent for necessary
repair or replacement of your
trailer.
- The Amount of Insurance shown on
the Declarations Page.
So, in most cases they will try to find a used trailer. However in your circumstance finding a trailer that matches your boat will probably be tough. In which case they won't pay more than the amount of insurance stated on the policy.
You could sue the agent for the difference but it will be your word against his. Again, because you signed the application how can you prove that the agent didn't explian and review the coverages and limits.
Tough sistuation for sure, I hope they find a trailer for you. |
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Posts: 1451
Location: Kronenwetter, WI | Didn't sign off on anything as it was added to our homeowner's policy which was preexisting. I trusted the company researched the values of the boat/motor/trailer and divided up the 43$K correctly. Only after the loss did I find out is was not correctly divided up.
Talked to an attorney today and there may be some negligence on the part of the company to reasonably research and provide for accurate coverage on the individual items.
Anybody got a red Ranger Trail for an 05 619 or know of one someplace?
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Posts: 2089
| Your Agent has E and O. You don't want to pay an Attorney do you??? For all the "shoppers" of insurance, let this be a lesson to ya'! I guess it all comes down to the agent and the company(ies) they represent. Shop with care! Steve
Edited by Steve Jonesi 12/20/2007 4:02 PM
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | Cowboyhannah - 12/20/2007 4:49 PM
Didn't sign off on anything as it was added to our homeowner's policy which was preexisting. I trusted the company researched the values of the boat/motor/trailer and divided up the 43$K correctly. Only after the loss did I find out is was not correctly divided up.
There you go. If it wasn't a stand alone policy and you gave them the amount of the total purchase and the agent did not confirm the amount of insurance on the trailer it is his fault. In this case they are going to be liable for the entire loss. We're talking a relatively small amount of money for a insurance company in this situation and they will likely avoid any litigation in favor of keeping a customer. If you don't agree with their settlement do not accept it and then weigh your options. As Jonesi mentioned the agent carries E&O (errors and omisions) professional liability insurance for this type of circumstance.
I would highly recommend a stand alone boatowners policy to everyone. It will give you better coverage and any claim will not count against your homeowners policy. |
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Posts: 1451
Location: Kronenwetter, WI | Okay---
Just spoke with the rep. for Wis. Mutual and things may be looking up....I rethought the situation and laid it on him as such:
I have been carrying and paying premiums for 43K on the entire rig the whole time. The trailer was underinsured at 2K but the motor was overinsured at 18K. Had the motor been totaled, I would never have expected to be paid out 18K. This is really a readjustment issue. Get the numbers right and pay out accordingly...Like I said I was carrying 43K in insurance and PAYING premiums on that much.
I told the guy and he hemmed and hawed. When I suggested that I was sure somebody in administration at their Madison home office would have the authority to make that happen, he inicated that there may be another source for funds and he would call me back as soon as he looks into that other source. I got the feeling he did not want the brass in Madison aware of this situation.
The saga continues......will keep you updated....tune in same bat time, same bat channel!!!!!! |
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| sounds like a crock to me...if it were me I'd be looking for another insurance agent and company...also, this is a good lesson for all of us...have our stuff insured correctly from the start...I created an excel spreadsheet with everything on / in my boat, values, all my rods/reels, etc etc...total fishing inventory and sent it to my insurance agent to keep a copy and put one on my hard drive.
make sure you have everything insured right from the start and you won't be in this type of situation...to me it sounds like your agent is not going to bat for you...I'd kick him to the curb...my 2 cents. |
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Posts: 2323
Location: Stevens Point, WI | Ok, I talked with my dad, who is a StateFarm Insurance agent. I had him read over this thread and here is what he said. He called claims department and discussed with a claims adjuster about this issue. Claims said by law they would have to go by what is on the application. However, if StateFarm were covering this, they would submit a coverage question to their supervisor and since it is apparent the agent failed in properly assessing the value of the trailer either the company would cover the additional cost up to the value of a 2005 trailer, just like how a total loss on a car is handled. But, if the policy states replacement cost coverage, DO NOT expect to total out your 1975 Ranger boat and have the insurance company buy you a new one. The thing my dad encourages everyone to do is visit your agent yearly and go over all your insurance policies---protect yourself!
Edited by Merckid 12/21/2007 2:50 PM
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Posts: 1451
Location: Kronenwetter, WI | Thanks, TJ. Tell your dad thanks, too. I'm waiting to see what solution Wi Mutal comes up with for me. Tryin' to keep the faith.
I'm about to board the Norwegian Majesty here in Charleston, SC. We're headed to Key West, Cozamel, then Grand Caymen. The kids are pretty excited, but I think I am more than they are. Hopefully I'll be able to get the Packer game on board. May try to talk the wifee into doing a fishing excursion with Key Limey while in the keys.
Anyway, thanks to everyone for all their thoughts....my wife keeps looking over at me and saying, "You're thinking about the insurance thing again, aren't you?" I always lie and tell her, "Not at all".
Edited by Cowboyhannah 12/22/2007 6:58 AM
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Posts: 73
Location: Indiana | I was a claims adjuster for about five years....so I have lots of battle wounds. Most of the time though, it's not the adjuster's fault. It's typically just people not being aware of what cover ages they are purchasing. Insurance doesn't just replace things...unless it's specifically intended to. And most of the time, it's either this or that...whichever is less. The problem is explaining this to a customer who has in good faith paid money, but never understood what they were paying for. Not the adjuster's fault...but they typically are the bearers of bad news.
I'm guessing your agent was estimating the $2000 value for rates purposes only. I could be wrong of course. But this is the first thing to find out...if there is a $2,000 limit for the trailer, that would show up on your declarations page. That is the first page of the policy that states all of the coverages and the costs for each coverage. Look at this. If there is specific coverage for the trailer, it will be singled out. Also, it will say"....actual cash value...replacement cost...repairs...whichever is less...UP TO THE LIMIT OF $2000". If it doesn't say the limit part, chances are the 2000 bucks the agent said was only for rates and not for the policy coverage itself. Of course, if it does list the limit of $2,000...that is definitely something you should be aware of when you are signing the policy. Limits are important...always look at them. If nothing else, look at those.
Also, boat trailers aren't always the easiest things to value. The NADA online thingamajig only gives a generic value. Insurance companies will dig a little deeper when valuing a vehicle. They will typically find others in the area that are for sale with the same options. They will then take those figures and compare it to the condition your trailer was in (above/below average, new tires, etc) and come up with a value. This can take some time, so be patient. If you press them for an offer, they will likely give you a lower one than you would expect. The best bet is to use the same time they're taking to do some research yourself to know what you're looking at.
They will likely offer you the ACV (actual cash value) which would be basically what a trailer similar to yours would sell for in your area. Not the price of a new one. Unless of course it's a replacement cost coverage, which it doesn't sound like. So 6500 for a new one. Three model years old. 10,000 miles on the trailer. some rust spots. similar ones selling for 4000. you're looking at an ACV of about 4000 give or take based on condition. If you want to keep the old trailer for spare parts, that cost would come out of the 4000...so if the wrecked trailer is worth 200 bucks if one were to want to buy it as is...you would get 3800.
The best option is to be friendly to the adjuster. Your agent typically has little say in what gets paid. They are agents. They sell the policy. That is just about it. Ultimately the adjuster and their immediate supervisor only will be the people that will be able to help you. If you are cooperative with them, they will be with you. If you are hostile to them, they won't work as hard to help you...it's basic human nature. The agent though is not the adjuster. Don't make enemies where they are not necessary. Adjusters get threats on a daily basis too. Verbal and physical and the "I'm going to talk to the CEO". Hell, we had locked doors and crap like that in our office. It happens so often it doesn't phase them or their managers. And it will never get past them.
My suggestion is to first understand what coverages you have and what limits you have. Then realize that they are coming up with a value to offer you, and you should be doing the same thing. Then negotiate with them. They'll have a margin to play with...see if you can get a couple hundred more bucks from it. Point out the condition...new tires or bearings...have receipts. Present your case and settle. But keep in mind...unfortunately you'll probably have to shell out some $$ from your own pocket if you want to get a new trailer that matches your boat. You’ll get some of that back when you sell it though.
Hopefully that helps a bit…
Halfpint
PM me if you have any questions
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| Being in the ins biz, I can tell you that if your agent "assumed" a figure for the trailer without your consent, or explicit intructions, he is on the hook for the mistake IF the company does not bend and settle your claim to your satisfaction.
Many times, personal lines companies will make an exception "in good faith" to prevent the bad publicity of having an angry ex-policyholder spewing ill will everywhere about their company.
If you cannot get this taken care of with the company, contact your state's Department of Insurance and file a complaint and ask them for advice. I can say, with high confidence, that if you file an E&O claim against your agent that is legitimate, you will prevail. This type of thing happens ALL the time and most agents will try to buffalo you into thinking that it is your fault. Bottom line, if you were led to believe that you were properly insured, your agent represented that you were, AND he made up an incorrect figure, he IS on the hook. All states' insurance codes overwhelmingly favor you, the insured. This type of stuff scares the heck out of me as an agent. I've heard of really bad E7O issues that cost millions to settle. While not a small issue to you, this is a small E&O issue and should be resolved easily.
If you have any further questions, I'll try to help. You can e-mail me at [email protected] AND if anyone needs restaurant or tavern insurance in IL I can help! 
Bryan |
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Posts: 73
Location: Indiana | Oh yea....totally forgot about that. Insurance Dept complaints are definately an option if you feel you have been misled or mistreated. They do get back to the adjuster and agent alike...and can really be a big deal of they have gotten complaints in the past.
I'm still thinking this...it sounds more like the issue they are dealing with isn't the limit of 2000 bucks, but the issue of finding a value for the trailer you own before it was wrecked (ACV). The trailer is prob easily worth over 2000....so if that was they case they would have prob already paid to that limit and been done with it. Adjusters have to close claims and that would have been an easy one if the limit was that low. Keep in mind, they most likely are determining the ACV...which will be considerably less than the replacement cost....so again, it will cost you out of pocket to get a new trailer to match. but again, when you sell the boat, you'll be able to sell it for more. |
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Posts: 1451
Location: Kronenwetter, WI | Ahhhh...the drama continues....
Spoke with Mazanet Marine (Place I bought rig from) and they faxed me the correct breakdown of the b/m/trialer...in case you are interested it came out as 22K for the hull, 13.5K for the motor, and 6.946K for the trailer. So I have the correct values from the dealer.
Today I spoke with the adjuster for the central wisconsin area for Wisconsin Mutual, Brad Netzer. I offered to fax him these numbers, he said no thank you. He indicated he will not exceed the $2000 payout on the trailer even though the motor was over insured at 18K.
I thanked him for his time and am proceeding to fill out a complaint form with the Wisconsin Office of the Commissioner of Insurance. Also plan to call Wisconsin Mutual's home office in madision to speak with a supervisor when they reopen on Wednesday.
We'll likely wind up in court over this...I hope I get a judge who sees it my way....
Anyone who is purchasing a new boat from a dealer, MAKE SURE THE INVOICE SHOWS THE VALUE OF BOAT/MOTOR/TRAILER SEPERATELY. |
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Posts: 1451
Location: Kronenwetter, WI | Update! Just got off the phone with the president of the company. He asked me to fax over the original bill of sale---that does NOT include value breakdowns of b/m/t---as well as the fax I got from the dealer on Monday that DOES show the accurate values.
Sounds like he is going to direct the home office claims supervisor to grant the regional adjustor to approve the payout on the trailer.
Basically the president said, well...you've been paying on 42$K I don't see why we cant just put in the correct values proceed accordingly.
Just waiting for a confirmation call now.
Edited by Cowboyhannah 1/2/2008 11:12 AM
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Posts: 2323
Location: Stevens Point, WI | That's good news Rick! Hope everything works out. Sometimes is just takes the right person to get the job done. You definitely had good grounds on why they should be paying for the trailer. |
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Posts: 1451
Location: Kronenwetter, WI | Whooooo-Hooooooo!!!!!! Got the confirmation call from the supervisor of claims....They're resetting the #'s as they should've been and are directing the adjuster to PAY OUT! New trailer should be ordered this week.
PLEASE review your policy coverage amounts as well as the value of the items covered to be certain you have proper protection...we're going to schedule a meeting to cover EVERYTHING with our agent to make sure we're covered...car, truck, home, cabin, boat/motor/trailer, personal posessions---baits, rods, reels, etc...
Thanks to Halfpint, Illinois Insurance Guy, and TJ's dad for their insight into the workings of the system.
NIGHTMARE OVER!
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Posts: 32880
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Glad to see this worked out for you! |
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Posts: 5
| Cowboy, I've been there but with a different insurance company. Bringing your issue to a public forum appears to have helped your situation, congratulations.
My suggestion to all is to check the insurance companies you are with, or considering, with the NAIC database. NAIC stands for National Association of Insurance Commissioners. Here is a link:
http://www.naic.org/cis/index.do
What you want to look for is the "Complaint Ratio." I'm no rocket scientist, but it makes sense to me to know how many complaints (like yours) insurance companies are receiving. I'm sure most insurance complaints don't make the pages of Muskie First and other message boards, but they should show up here.
1. Click on Link
2. Type in Company name
3. Click on Complaint Ratio Report
4. Click on Create Report
Look at the score and see the chart below. If your company is way off on the right side of chart (more complaints than average), you may want to ask some serious questions about the company that is covering your hard earned assets.
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