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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | Guys, this is can be a heated subject or not. I've been in plenty of discussions that got off on the wrong foot concerning this subject with MOMC but in the end everyone wants what is best for this fishery. MOMC has improved dramatically over the years, not all fish over the minimum are taken to the scale they use radios and everyone is informed what the best fish is and all others are released. Many/all of the fish taken to the scales are transported in livewells then weighed and released. Is this best for the fish? NO, everyone knows and recognizes that. Will the Michigan DNR and the Ministries ban tournaments? NO. Could we work with them to ban weigh in tournaments? NO again, since that would basically be saying that for a tournament your license is no good and you can't harvest a fish if you're in a tournament. Would it help to increase the size limit to 48 or 50 inches when these tournaments already have a self imposed 50 inch or higher limit for taking fish to the scale? Obviously NO.
There is still room for improvement but this is not likely to come from the OMNR or MI-DNR. This will come from continued education and level headed discussions not bashing the MOMC or HPYC. You see, I agree with many of you that this is wrong but it is legal. There are great examples being used in Minnesota of how a release tournament could be run without judge boats. These tournaments might consider this if it was explained how well this type of tournament is run and that it nearly eliminates any possible cheating.
I also don't buy into the claim made by Richard that these tournaments are responsible for killing fish all over the lake. As mentioned above, delayed mortality is a bigger concern. Mis-handled muskies are dying by the thousands each year on St Clair at the hands of the average perch, bass, walleye and muskie angler. MOMC and HPYC tournaments probably kill 20-30 fish over a year. Fish handling out there on big boats is terrible and goes something like this:
Fish netted and dumped on the deck of a boat... stepped on to hold them down... unhooked... camera found... photo taken... fish torpedoed back into the water. All this while the boat is still going 4.2 - 5 mph. Educating people that this is likely killing 10-20% of these fish and they should consider making changes to their release methods is a greater benefit to the fishery than stopping these tournaments.
Education is key and the only way to assure that we'll have a world class fishery for the next generation.
Will Schultz, President
Michigan Muskie Alliance
Edited by Will Schultz 8/30/2007 11:44 AM
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Posts: 8863
| Will,
How does the average musky fishing schmuck educate the people who are doing this without alienating them?
We can complain here, and it might make us feel better, but I doubt it will cause anything positive to happen. Education is the key, no doubt about that. It's how all of us here got to the point where we are today. But HOW?
We can;t just scoop up the floaters, wrap them in a box, and deliver them to the people responsibile for their demise along with a note that says "see what you have done?"
Or can we?  |
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | esoxaddict - 8/30/2007 1:24 PM
Will,
How does the average musky fishing schmuck educate the people who are doing this without alienating them?
That's the million dollar question isn't it.... How do you reach "Joe Angler" with the message? If I had the perfect answer it would already be happening. |
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| I do not fish tournaments, but as I recall, Paul Hartman's are considered by the vast majority of Muskie tournament fishermen to be the absolute best way to go. A photo of the fish on a color-coded bump board, and it's back in the lake. I believe his tournaments also give back a ton of money to the fishery. Is there any way a guy could get a detailed description of his rules and regulations and somehow discuss it with the MOMC? Might do a little good.
Muskies Inc. had catch & release brochures at one time. Maybe they still do, I'm not sure, but what about passing out some type of literature at the boat launches? Maybe cook up some burgers and brats for people coming off the lake and offer them free and include a brochure? I gotta believe there is some good that can be done to help bridge the gap between the parties in question if people choose to make the effort.
Of course there's always that remote possibility that I actually have no idea about what I'm talking about.  Good day gentlemen. |
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | Derrys - It's been done, well... except for the burgers and brats. The reason I chimed in was to make everyone aware that communication has not been an issue concerning the tournaments.
The greater problem seems to be that feelings get in the way of facts and science...
Edited by Will Schultz 8/30/2007 1:02 PM
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Posts: 8863
| Will Schultz - 8/30/2007 12:52 PM
...
The greater problem seems to be that feelings get in the way of facts and science...
So what you're saying is we're on common ground... |
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| Paul Hartman's are considered by the vast majority of Muskie tournament fishermen to be the absolute best way to go. A photo of the fish on a color-coded bump board, and it's back in the lake. I believe his tournaments also give back a ton of money to the fishery. Is there any way a guy could get a detailed description of his rules and regulations and somehow discuss it with the MOMC? Might do a little good.
rules:
http://www.mnmuskietournament.com/cassrules.html
sample pics:
http://www.mnmuskietournament.com/vermilresults.html
http://www.mnmuskietournament.com/mlacsresults.html
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| Wow, even better than I thought. I've never met Paul, but I commend him for putting on the kind of tournament that he does. Thanks Michael for posting that. |
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Posts: 1530
| hi guys the bump board and back in the water would be the dream of the muskies canada guys. we have a can am challenge yearly. the rules are a measurment a scale sample for the mnbr and release.. wills thoughts and how those tournies are run is an absolute way to enhance the future. unfortunately we are not there yet for some. i hope these thoughts are implemmented |
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Posts: 64
Location: st clair shores, MI | lambeau, the paul hartman color coded jig method is an outstanding way to run a tourny.If someone could supply me with a color coded jig i would be willing to present this system at the next genral MOMC membership meeting and work on trying to get this kind of a system going on St Clair.I would have to figure out what it would cost to set this system up and run this every month.And with the number of boats that fish each tourny, the large size of the St Clair and how many fish are caught how do you work the judge boatsThe only thing that worrys me is the judge boat part because i along with many others out here have had 20 fish days and if i was to get into fish i would need a pesonal judge boat.Even if we could get half the tournaments out here to go this system it would be better.But again how will the judge boats work on a 26000 sq mile lake? |
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| Have a guest judge in each boat? I'm sure there would be a way. Sell them on the program first, and you could decide that later. |
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| the measuring boards are Dunwright bump boards, available through most major retailers or direct from Dunwright. my guess is that Dunwright or some other bump-board maker would be willing to give a discount to a tourney organizer making a large purchase such as this would require. of course, as tourney participants buy the boards, you'd recoup the costs.
Paul Hartman has a supply of them available at the tournament so that every boat gets one - you either buy one for yourself to keep and re-use in subsequent tournies (this is what i did last year) or use one of his (with a returnable deposit). he simply color-coded every other inch at the top end for ease of reading. he also rounds everything up to the next nearest half-inch.
one thing that should start being done for people using their own bump boards is for the judges to inspect the bump board at the start of the tourney. it would be very easy to change the scale on your board so it read an extra inch longer and that's not something judges would notice in the pictures.
as for judge boats? Paul divides the water into zones and places judge boats in different areas so they're nearby any potential catches. Vermilion and Mille Lacs are huge bodies of water too, and his system seems to work fine out there. one important aspect: once you've called the catch in, you are allowed to continue fishing while the judge boat comes to find you; it sounds like this would be important on St. Clair too.
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| If I read the rules correctly, then unlike many judge boat tournaments, the judge boats in Paul's tournaments come to inspect your PHOTO and maybe your boat, and NOT the fish itself, which should be swimming away nicely long before they arrive. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks. |
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | agarofalo - 8/30/2007 9:31 PM
with the number of boats that fish each tourny, the large size of the St Clair and how many fish are caught how do you work the judge boatsThe only thing that worrys me is the judge boat part because i along with many others out here have had 20 fish days and if i was to get into fish i would need a pesonal judge boat.Even if we could get half the tournaments out here to go this system it would be better.But again how will the judge boats work on a 26000 sq mile lake?
agarofalo - if you're serious about taking this to MOMC I will buy a Dunwright board for you to take to a meeting. I'll put the color tape on it and send it to you. I live too far away in GR to drive over for a meeting but I would be happy to do this if it gets the ball rolling. PM me if you're interested.
If the tournament had a 45 or even 48" minimum it would cut down on the number of times a judgeboat would need to be used. Mille Lacs is about 1/2 the size of St Clair and they make it work there. Why not St Clair?
As far as cost goes, as Lambeau mentioned there could be a deposit for people that use the "official" bump board. It's a one time cost on the boards for the tournament provider. The anglers would simply pick up their bumpboard at the captains meeting. This is also another way to eliminate cheating instead of allowing someone to purchase the board. On each board put a number that must appear in the photo, then you'll know the board is the "official" board that was given to them at the captains meeting. You can contact Dunwright about pricing in large quantities - http://www.dunwrighttackle.com/accessories.shtml
Derrys - The fish is not witnessed by the judge boat, the photo is witnessed. The judge boat also makes sure the fish isn't still in the livewell.
Edited by Will Schultz 8/31/2007 12:56 AM
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Posts: 1430
Location: Eastern Ontario | Wow guys thats some great thinking, if I remember right the Dunright boards are like $30-40 so not that expensive. I also believe the organisation needs to keep the board and hand out at every touirnament to keep them legit as well as adding a sticker or something diferent for every tourney. Cheep digital cameras can also ne handed out at the captains meetings so you know for sure those fish are caught that day. |
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