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Posts: 786
Location: Minnesota | I know I have learned my lesson with owning a bait company. I started my business to make a few bucks to pay for some extra fishign tackle....lol $3k to start and only $1k made so far with more $$$ dumping back in all the time. I have about 700 metal lure lips left and hence 700 baits left to make. After that I will sell Grunt Muskie Lures website/plans/ and all. I do make money, but my big baits cost over $10 to make and they don't fly off the small assembly line I have... I also tried to keep the price around $40 but I shoudl have pushed it to $50... Oh well I will keep on truckin until I sell 700 more... That should break me even plus a thousand or so for the 300+hours of work at that time.
James
http://www.gruntmuskielures.com
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Posts: 663
| Don't know if that figure of 9000 is accurate or not but it shows where the mindset of the greater fishing industry is. As much as we are passionate about our sport we are a tiny piece of the pie. They can pump out a couple bajillion Rattle Traps or something else and be reasonably confident that every mom and pop bait shop and hardware store will snap them up. Not so much with musky baits. |
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Posts: 1530
| musky bait manufacturing does have a ceiling. also geograhics. some areas cast others troll. making baits is a way of life for some. the great thing is small manufatures can do custom work for individuals needs.. i have been painting for 2 decades and believe me i have met some very intresting musky nuts over the years. would we do it all over again,,,you betcha. its been a ride. |
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Posts: 786
Location: Minnesota | Re: 9000 baits.
If you are selling 9000 baits, wow! I do realize if Rapala sells 9000 baits they dump that lure.... I think they do not realize the pike buyers would account for a lot more than the muskie buyers if the bait was the right style/size. JMO
Edited by Grunt Lures 2/17/2007 9:33 AM
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Posts: 1916
Location: Greenfield, WI | The indicater that I use to tell if a sports show is successful and, as a famous person once said, "peeps" are buying, is the number of people walking around with new muskie rods in their hands. If you see alot of new rods, there typically are a good number of baits being sold as well.
Mr. Worrall, your posts on "Muskie Show Economics" should count as Continuing Education Credits for Business Degree holders.
One thing that Bill Schwartz of Slammer Crankbaits does every year at the shows is to offer custom show colors that aren't available at stores or internet outlets. In that way he isn't directly competing with the retailers. It is important for every vendor to be profitable in some degree. Even though the shows typically are as enjoyable for vendors as it is for show customers, (there are so many great people of all walks of life at the shows) if a vendor cannot cover or exceed costs, it makes no sense to be there to sell.
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Posts: 551
Location: Columbus, Georgia | I have read and re-read this thread a few times now. It has assisted me in looking at some of the great issues and aspects detailed here in new and different ways.
The fact that we all want to purchase what's new and exciting is something that everyone would probably agree is not possible, so we all try to put the brakes on ourselves and try to keep it reel (real).
But yesterday I was surfing some of my tried-and-true online resources and realized that there are proven yet lesser-costing baits in all categories. That is to say; whether it be spinnerbaits, topwaters, jerkbaits, or whatever .... there are manufacturers out there that produce baits that are known to catch fish while still being retailed at lower prices.
I am not implying anything negative whatsoever about other tackle producers. I just realized that while Musky fishing is an expensive sport, one can still fish baits under any conditions, without having to own dozens (or hundreds) within each category. I guess I am as guilty as anyone else of owning more baits that could possibly be thrown by a small army of Musky Hunters.
So, in looking at the extreme disproportions reflected in this straw poll about why guys were not buying (as much) at the Milwaukee Show ... I surely don't feel that anyone is being "left out" of our sport because they cannot afford (or do not choose) to purchase everything in sight.
This "migration of attitude" is very good for me. If I had not had the opportunity to read the detailed thoughts and convictions of a bunch of dedicated and sincere guys who love this sport .... I'd keep looking at things through my own glasses.
Craig
Edited by cjrich 2/17/2007 12:48 PM
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| I see "Stuff is just TOO expensive!" is number 1 in the rankings.
IMO, surf eBay about once/week. You will find a LOT of good baits for 1/2 price including shipping. For instance, I have 19 Suicks from eBay so far. A few needed paint and all now are good as new! Some interesting baits new and used can be picked up for cheap. Just my opinion. I still buy a lot of new but try to buy from the basement/small builders when I do. That is for msukie and pike tackle. My bass/walleye/crappie are all Cabelas/Bass Pro bought. |
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Posts: 1270
| In regards to Pete's post about manufactures selling products that they want dealers to carry. I can't believe that they would do this, if I was a dealer and one of my suppliers was undercutting me at a show that I was at or even selling for the same price that would be the last order they ever get.
Now when there are 3 retailers at the same show selling the same product it makes it a little more difficult but still doable. The manufacture brings enough baits to supply all the retailers and if a retailer runs out then they fill the order right at the show. When a consumer comes to the manufactures booth and asks where he can buy the bait from the manufacture tells the consumer all the retailers carrying there baits.
For a manufacture to sell against a retailer is a very short sighted thing to do. Now they will have to go to all the shows because the retailers will not be supporting them at the shows or bringing baits to the shows. They will also probably re-think how many of the baits they stock in there store. This will end up hurting the bait manufacture in the long run. |
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Posts: 551
Location: Columbus, Georgia | There are a few different ways to look at the issue that reelman has detailed. I agree that if the retailers are at the show, they should re-stock on-site. The manufacturer should have runners to re-supply the retailers when they run low on items. In this variant we would see the manufacturers showcasing new items, explaining all aspects of their baits, getting to know the guys that are ultimately throwing their baits, and getting exposure and conducting overall PR.... but they would not be selling. One could say that it's not fair for the retailer to have to compete with a manufacturer at a show.
However; there is a completely different way to conceptualize this whole dynamic. One can begin with the premise that the show is not about the retail store that guys can purchase lures from any day of the week either online or in the store. The show is about "baits," and the people that produce them. One can also go under the assumption that the big retail outlets have no business at all at these shows. There are small bait producers (and enough has been discussed about this all week long since the Milwaukee Show) who have it hard enough staying in business. They sell their baits for half-price/wholesale to the few big retail outlets, and now they have a show where they can actually meet the guys throwing their baits and have a few days and the opportunity to make full price on their baits. Except they can't really do that, Because Rollie & Helens, or Thorne Bros., or Smokeys is there with the same line of stuff that guys can purchase any day of the week online or at their store if they live within relative driving distance.
Considering the above variant #1, one can say that the retailer would then be getting squeezed (yeah ... for a few days out of the entire year in a market that so few large retailers virtually control). Yet so much has been said here, and in defense of, about the guy who is trying to make a living crafting baits. Well, here is his chance, but he can't get ahead because those retailers are there and he's getting beat by wholesaling his stuff when he has one of the few opportunities of the year to retail face-to-face. Yes, many manufacturers will sell directly to the public. One can say that's OK too.
So presented here is a decent position championing the bait manufacturer. Telling the retailers that they have to "sit this one out" would surely not put them out of business. One can as well present a solid defense for the retailers being at the shows.
It appears that some would believe that there is some degree of conflict of interest going on when producers and retailers are both selling at the shows. Some others might also have an understanding as to why things work well (and fairly) the way they are.
I don't really know enough about the "behind the scenes" considerations at the shows. I just throw the baits, but I would be interested to know what those in the know think about the variants presented in this post, and reelman's preceding post.
Craig
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| A zing
Edited by Sponge 4/30/2007 6:41 AM
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| I budget my money at the show.So if I spend $5.00 to park and $10 to get in and another $10 for the honey.tHATS ALREADY $25.00 LESS Im spending on lures.I alsom look for deals or custom stuff at the shows not what I can get at my local store. |
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Posts: 351
| Really an interesting thread.
I started building baits years ago. I started building bucktails and safety-pin style spinner baits for musky. Two years ago, I began building hardbaits, including crankbaits, jerkbaits, twitchbaits, and have built a few prototype jerkbaits, which have been extremely successful for me on our local waters.
If I ever sell any of my baits, and I haven't yet, it will be likely only to buy more equipment to build or buy more supplies. As of now, I have not intentions of doing that.
From the beginning, I decided that I would not sell my baits openly for a variety of reasons:
1. Doing anything as a business is vastly different than doing it as a hobby for friends, family, and/or yourself. I used to LOVE photography...ate, slept, and breathed it as a hobby. Decided to do it as a "side business" and I hated it. I hardly ever pick up a camera for pleasure shooting anymore. I learned from that.
2. I cannot afford to work for the profit margins involved in a hardbait. If you account for buying a bench sander, a grinder, a bandsaw, rotary tools and bits, a compressor and quality airbrush, all the paints, solvents, clears, etc, etc, you may not live long enough to break even.:)
3. People are people. Some are tough to deal with; others have unreasonable expectations of any given product or supplier. 95% of people out there are fun to deal with; the other 5% are the ones that would take the fun out of building for "profit" for me at least.
4. I don't wish to spend time off the water (fishing) to work on back orders and custom colors.
5. I don't wish to make a "line" of baits, and thus be relegated to repititive assembly style work.
But don't get confused. I'm NOT complaining. It's just that having been in business for over 31 years in a field far detached from bait-building/selling, I understand the basic format for commerce and it simply does not jive with selling baits to the tune of only hundreds or even a few thousand a year.
I also knew from the beginning that most people naturally don't want to pay over a certain number of dollars for something they'll tie on a string and throw into a body of water which can hold rock and stumps. That only makes sense.
I also knew that, while people truly "appreciate" art, our appreciation of art is usually disconnected from our wallets. I'm the same way. It may please my eye, but food, clothing, and shelter, and the other necessities of life will always have a higher priority. We remain cautious about spending that which we may need for otherr things.
Lastly, I'd like to comment on the quality of work out there and the process of "becoming a musky fisherman.
Someone above outlined the steps we all go through, buying the basics, then buying what we've heard is the "hot bait," etc, etc. That was a very accurate outline. I did the same things for musky fishing, pretty much.
If I knew then, what I know now, I'd buying NOTHING BUT custom hardbaits from the guy that are making baits on the websites that I hang out on (which discuss and display the work of bait builders). I'd gladly pay the prices they are now asking. I'd get higher quality and the baits would last much longer and catch the same if not more decent fish. The great bait builders put their hearts and souls into the baits they make. Many are truly a form of art, but again, the product's mission is to be flung into nasty rocky, stumpy, deep waters.
One of my running jokes with my friends is, "You can buy a musky bait for about $13 or you can make your own for about $25."
But you need to examine the baits and think...One of the commercially made baits which has been successful for me is the Monster Shad. About $9, right? The problem that I noticed is that the bait gets torn up rather easily in my opinion. So if I could buy a bait in a similar configuration for about $20 and it lasted for many seasons, would it be worth it to you? It would seem to be worth it to me, which is why I've spent thousands on equipment and supplies to build my own...that and the satisfaction of catching fish on my own baits. I have almost nothing in my arsenal now that I did not build. I've spent a ton of money and countless hours learning how to do it right.
It's the way it is and it's not going to change. Each person has to decide how to make their way through the process and spend what he can afford to enjoy the insanity of musky fishing. Such a small percentage of the total fishing population to "market" quality rods, reels, baits, etc, is a huge factor in any analysis of "profit/loss" over longer periods of time.
The good news for musky nuts is that bait building is getting better as time goes on. The custom builders are talking to each other and sharing ideas, processes, new materials, even templates and sources for supplies, machinery, and equipment. The baits have gotten better just in the 18 months or so that I've hung out at the bait-building websites.
The results will benefit all. More fish per hour is the likely result. Baits will last longer (if they're not eaten by a deep stump). Less stress because of higher quality rods, reels, line, boats, you name it.
Expensive? Yep. Worth it? Let me tell you about 48 incher that I caught. I was trolling and when I hooked her, she came up and tail-danced across the water, showing her beautiful bronze coloration in the afternoon sun, and all of a sudden...
 
Edited by fatfingers 2/18/2007 11:24 AM
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Posts: 476
Location: WI | Craig-well put thoughts. I see both sides of the fence here. I would hate to see the manufactuers not be at the show because the retailers are taking care of the promotion of their products. That is why I thought selling CUSTOM colors and selling at RETAIL, is a good way for them to still pay for their booth. I'm all for the retailers too, they support the manufacturers all year round, but they too would benefit from having the manufacturers promoting their products at the show as they get the sales the REST of the year. The retailers do a good job showing all of the "stuff" that they sell, a manufacturer at a booth can break it down to the choices, techniques, and specialities of their lure.
Fatfingers-Good point about custom guys too. I think if I send a picture of a nice fish that I caught on one of their baits they'd be a lot happier about it than a large manufacturer.
Pete-you asked about ideas for marketing and promotions from the retailers. I think some people already said things about having a "Buy 5 Get 1 Free" special or market a specific lure and have a raffle for a free guide trip from all of those purchases. I would think that there are lots of ideas to come up with to get more sales.
As a sales man, I find this topic quite interesting...more input?
GotOne |
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Posts: 381
| Too Busy to go!
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Posts: 1299
Location: Hayward, Wisconsin | Interesting discussion. Personally I don't think that the bait makers OR the retailers have anything to worry about...buying lures IS part and parcel of the muskie game. Likely for most, the preeminent thing.
To give but one small example, I once had a guide client show up for his day on the water. The first question he asked was could he bring all of his tackle boxes. When he opened his vehicle, there were three LARGE Lakewood tackle boxes and one medium size...all were FULL to the max! And this guy had yet to catch his FIRST legal muskie!! Long story short, he brought all four boxes and fished with about six lures all day...and yes, he did catch his first muskie, a nice 37 incher.
This scene is repeated over and over by a vast majority of the guys that fish with me, so do not despair, lure sales will NEVER cease!
Muskie regards,
Larry Ramsell
www.larryramsell.com |
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Posts: 359
Location: Wauwatosa, Wisconsin | thank you for your posting, fatfingers! You da bomb! Well said. Well done. I'd like to meet you some day. Meanwhile, i have added you to my "HEROES" list. |
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Posts: 351
| Thanks for the kind words, Greg. |
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