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Posts: 177
Location: Cohasset, MN | And how about F8 to hook-up ratio ? Just curious what the "norm" is. I've yet to convert an F8. I'm estimating at least 30:1 (in my case) for fish seen versus fish caught. Probably higher. I can only get on the water about 10 weekends a year and spend most of that time on one lake. I feel like I'm seeing a decent amount of fish (doing something right ?) with very few strikes (doing something wrong ?). Am I even in the ball park ? |
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Posts: 1938
Location: Black Creek, WI | Wow, neat question.... not sure of my answer... but I suspect it changes pending the lure, lake, season, etc. And... I bet the ratio is pretty poor..... heck.. poorer than anyone would want to admit.
Jerks are probably my lowest percentage for sure. Lots of boatside strikes with a "death hang" but very few from an actual Figure 8.
Cranks ain't bad, but the boatside dance usually steals the show here too... but cranks can produce on the high outside turn of the 8 quite well. Follow to strike ratio? Who knows??? I plan to stick 'em further from the boat with these types of baits.
Topwater? Depends on the type. Walk the dog.... same deal as jerks for me. Slow wobblers..... fair but not expected to hook up on the 8. Tail baits.... usually will "feed it to 'em" before boatside... but you have a decent shot on the 8 if they aggressively engage the bait.
Blade Baits (bucktails and spinnerbaits) rock for figure8 fishing and when conditions are right... I fish them with the INTENT of scoring on the Figure8. Results seem to change year on year (2006 sucked for me, 2005 was fair and 2004 was phenomenal). If the fish engage the bait and CHASE prior to boatside... your hook-up ratio can be very high.... and if done intentionally... can be higher than the main retrieve. The key... in my opinion... is to build the "excitement factor" leading into the figure8 and have them fully engage the lure. If you can achieve that.... the Figure8 is almost a guarantee. Unfortunately.... the fish have a mind of their own and you can't always get them to "nose up" on the bait, despite all your "tricks". But... it CAN be effective enough that I will actually fish with blade baits with the intent of hooking up in the Figure8... and consider strikes further from the boat a "bonus" or "easy" fish.
God I hope 2007 is more like 2004.... as I really MISSED the Figure8 action this year.  |
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| Of the 43 fish I've seen this year personally, I've triggered 7 at the boat, in a figure 8. A couple of horses...but my biggest fish have hit out. For a week and a half, and my 4th trip of the year, while fishing Eagle, we found that almost all of the fish we caught were in figure 8's...and we were boating 2-3 per day, and seeing 8-10...these figures were somewhat skewed simply for the fact that something was going on that made these fish eat "at the boat."
My hook-up ratio of 43:7, is much lower compared to the trip we had on Eagle for that week and a half...8:2 or 10:3. I would say a 25-30% hook-up ratio would be accurate.
The thing I've found, is that figure 8ing is an art. If you don't feel you're sticking as many fish in the Figure 8, try to remember a few things when trying to trigger fish boatside.
1.) Insure your Figure 8 is in 3 dimensions.
a.) Speed changes...speed on the inside turn, slow on the outside turn
b.) Depth changes...go down when turning back into the boat (fish doesn't see the boat!), bring the bait almost to the surface going away from the boat
c.) Direction changes...in a correct Figure 8, you'll be changing directions 4 different times
2.) Always turn away from the boat on your first turn...never go out, and then turn into the boat. You want to be leading the fish away from the boat as much as possible.
3.) Keep your cool.
4.) Don't put your thumb on the spool.
jtroop,
If you try and do these things, it might help trigger a few more of those follows. The lakes you're fishing may not be susceptible to figure 8's as well. So, don't be too hard on yourself, if you're not hooking up with a bunch of fish...like JLong said, it is truly about the body of water, time of year, and about 30 other factors that play into getting fish to eat in a figure 8.
Just my 2 cents worth!!
Donnie  ;-)
Edited by Donnie3737 10/13/2006 7:08 AM
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Posts: 1316
Location: Madison, WI | "4) Don't put your thumb on the spool" What's that mean?
I've come the conclusion that I'm too ugly to figure 8. Every time I have a fish follow it darts underneath the boat after seeing me!! |
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Location: Contrarian Island | I'll chime in after these two masters of the 8...
I think like JLong has said, you can read the fish...I have a pretty good feeling of which fish that are following are going to hit in the 8, and I'm right most of the time. You can just see it in their eyes sort of..I had a hot 47" come in on Monona for league one nite I knew was going to hit as I had made the comment after I caught it, that fish looked mean! Now not all fish I think are going to hit do, and some I don't think are going to flip the switch and do hit...but more times than not once you have hundreds and hundreds of follows you can start to see the reaction of the fish and know which will hit and which won't...I didn't keep track of the # of follows I've had this season so far..I'm guessing it is in the 350 range at this point, maybe more...I've probably had about 7- 10% of those actually hit in the 8...or attempt to...I think like JLong said, it all depends on the mood of the fish, the weather, etc...was on a lake a couple times this year they would not commit into the 8 one trip, and on the next trip they were going bonkers on the figure 8 and we had multiple fish in the net all on the 8.
Some lakes are tougher than other to get them to eat..in fact some lakes I have caught quite a few fish I don't think I have one on the 8! Why is that? who knows..maybe just a bit more boat shy or conditioned if you will....blade baits seem to be better for getting fish to hit in the 8, this year spinnerbaits and bucktails have been on fire for fig 8 hits...and some awesome ones at nite!
After fishing with quite a few different fishermen over the years of all skill levels I would agree with all of Donnies "Do's". In fact he even preached to me one day on Eagle and it still sticks in my head about take the first turn AWAY from the boat as Donnie so nicely put it that day
Here are some of the sure fire "don't"s for not executing it properly...
* don't slow the bait down when you see the fish behind your lure..if anything try to take it away from them
*don't stop the bait when you see a fish behind it, unless you are going for the suicidal topwater hit or you think it's gonna hit it on a pause...blade baits, keep em moving !
*sudden movements are a no no, try to stay smooth with all your body movements and try to limit how much you do move
*don't make small turns with larger fish..big fish need room to turn
Pretty much Donnie and JLong covered it..this year has been awesome for figure 8's so it just goes to show some guys can have an off year and some guys can have a great year...fishing different waters and areas is probably the reason...
I would think if you can convert 10-25% consistently in the 8 you are doing pretty well....
Edited by MSKY HNR 10/13/2006 8:14 AM
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Location: Altoona, IA | What do you mean by never make the first turn toward the boat? The way I see it the bait is coming in toward the boat, then you start your 8, L, Circle or whatever, making a turn near the boat and (for me) the first turn in the L the bait is running parallel to the boat for a while. What do I need to do differently to turn the bait away form the boat to start? |
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Posts: 8828
| Here's what I do: (I think -- I have to do it in real life to be sure)
Since the boat is usually moving forward I don't worry as much about the length of the 8 as I do the depth (get as far out from the boat as possible)
Honestly I've never had much luck getting fish to commit, until I tried speeding up into the first turn. The speed up/slow down/change depths part is really (to me anyway) what happens naturally based on the fact that you can't possibly get the tip down in the water as far on the outside turns as you can on the inside, and the fact that it's easier to speed up pulling the bait towards your body than it is going away from it.
A lot of guys will freespool, I personally don't trust myself doing that. The drag is there for a reason, right?
Edited by esoxaddict 10/13/2006 10:55 AM
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 My 8.JPG (11KB - 95 downloads)
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Location: Altoona, IA | EA, the drawing and description is just about what I do, what was/is throwing me for a loop is the the statement "Always turn away from the boat on your first turn". Am I reading to much into this? To me your first turn is always going to be at the boat. |
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| That is AWESOME EA. It's a great tip on its own and the graphic is terrific. |
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| Brad,
AWESOME Don'ts...I'll agree with them all. The biggest no-no I've learned, is smooth/slow moves!! Great points!!
Esoxaddict has the correct diagram....what some do, is to make a 90 degree turn, which is right, but they do it 4 feet awat from the boat, and then turn the bait "into" the boat....come all the way to the boat, and THEN TURN OUT!
Nice discussion....Donnie 
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Posts: 572
| great diagram and tips.
Something you might consider is when slowing down on turn 2, merely bring the bait right back over the muskie's head. You might be surprised how many muskies will nip at the bait and get caught while the muskie is headed away from boat. If he nips it, he will have his weight coming down on the lure which should help in the hook set. I believe this gives the best place to get the best hook set in a figure 8.
If the muskie doesn't strike, merely push the lure back away from boat toward the original
figure 8 so the muskie can continue the follow. |
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Posts: 1636
| Does anyone eles open the spool up and use there thumb to hold the line when they do a figure 8 and set the hook on a fish?
I have done that since I can remember and will not change. Works fine for me.
Do you perform the same figure 8 each time? The diagram is great if you are a believer in performing perfect figure 8's. I would much rather do it based on the fish. For instance... which direction you will start your figure 8 or whatever move your going to do. If the fish is hot, I have found that a figure 8 is not neccessary, but anything you can do that might look like the bait is trying to get away from the muskie will work. If the fish is slow, then a figure 8 is a must, but before hand speed up the bait to see if you can get the fish to speed up. If they do, they almost always hit on the L. If the water is murky and you can only see the following fish for a short period of time, go to what the picture or diagram if you will, illustrates for you. The fish can't really give you any hints as to what you should do so its best to stick with the basics.
I think I have a hard time describing what I would do in situations on the computer. I hope someone can make some sense with what I'm trying to say.
Edited by Reelwise 10/13/2006 12:31 PM
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| I think that is personal preference as far as the open spool or not...I personally don't open the spool as I don't feel confident I can always get a good hookset without the spool slipping..some guys do open the spool and seem to do fine that way....
I leave it shut, and would rather let the drag do it's thing...as I don't crank my drag all the way down |
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Posts: 8828
| Bob, that makes sense.
Do you find that if you do that and the fish doesn't go for it that they swim off before you have a chance to bring the bait back into their line of sight?
I can't imagine having prey swim right at them is something muskies encounter in real life very often.
Jtroop -- I never answered your question:
My hook up ratio right now is:
1:so many I've lost count.
And it's for the reasons Brad and Donnie illustrated above -- making sudden movements and spooking the fish before I go into the 8, and doing those nice slow figure 8's so the fish can catch the lure. They can catch that lure no matter how fast you reel it or figure 8 it.
I'd say I lost maybe 2 or three to stopping the lure, 2 or three to taking the lure out of the water, at least a dozen to boring the fish to death with a nice slow 8, and a good 20 to scaring the crap out of them before I even made the first turn. |
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Posts: 1636
| Woops. to answer the original question, I would have to say I get less than half of the fish I see follow to hit. Some days they will not hit no matter what you do. Those are usually the days where I see a lot more fish, when they won't hit... go figure. The days when the fish will follow and commit seem to be the days where you see less follows, more often than not... meaning, less follows but can also mean less follows but more fish hitting without following period, or you just dont notice it. |
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Posts: 1938
Location: Black Creek, WI | I think Donnie cleared up the "1st turn" confusion. I guess if we use EA's excellent diagram.... I'd consider what EA labeled as turn 2 to actually be turn 1..... as that is the first place I'd expect to get bit.
Also.... I think the "straight away" run is very important and usually overlooked since the most strikes seem to happen on the turns. EA's diagram should have longer runs between the outside and inside turns, in my opinion. That stretch is where the fish usually need to RE-Engage the lure. Usually I will make some bold moves on that outside turn.... making too sharp of a corner for the fish to stay ON the bait. If they don't eat.... they typically need to veer off and come back to the bait... which is what the "straight away" is for. That is where you need to "read the fish" and do what is necessary to get them to "nose up" on the bait again before you enter your next turn. And... its been my experience that probably 75% of the strikes come in the 1st two turns. Yah... sometimes a fish will completely disengage the lure and come screaming back in seemingly out of nowhere.... but usually your chances for a bite get less and less with the more turns you make.... especially if you don't let them re-engage before your next turn. Once you start bringing your bait back AT the fish (lure and fish traveling in opposite directions).... the game is pretty much over.... unless you got yourself a "suicidal fish".
Donnie and Brad offer some great tips.... however I favor FREESPOOL whenever performing an 8. This may be personal preference.... especially if you run a loose(r) drag. But for those guys still locking their drag down.... I think freespool is essential.
Minimizing body movement is always a plus... but gosh darn... there a lot of fish that spook simply due to the presence of the boat (not your movement) and then there are those fish we all love... that wouldn't spook even if you did a cannonball off the front deck!
Its those "late arrivals" that are still frustrating to me. More frustrating than those "slow and low" lookers. When a fish has already engaged your lure as it approaches the boat... your chances for success are the highest.... but for whatever reason... those hard-chargers that come in late (they are very interested in your lure but are still trying to locate it - kinda like hunting down a target that they haven't locked onto yet).... sometimes not showing themselves until you are starting your L-turn.... are the most difficult for me to convert. I guess in those situations I may still "flinch" as the fish kinda catches you off-guard and you are trying to "recover" from the lead-in to your next cast.... but usually those fish won't ever engage the lure. They may hang around for a little while if they didn't bolt from your flinch... but they seem to be the most difficult to convert. And its frustrating becuase their interest level seems so high... you feel like you missed a legit opportunity. Can anyone help me here?????
And... Brad mentioned that 2007 was an excellent season for him and Figure8's while my 8 success sucked..... goes to show that each fish is unique. I had a great year on Blade Baits... but most fish just whacked them further out from the boat. I stuck 'em before ever getting a chance to do a figure8. Good problem to have, I guess. But.... when you are addicted to the adrenaline rush of hooking a fish "up close and personal" on the figure8... it kinda sucks. |
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Posts: 8828
| Jlong,
I know what you mean about the straightaways. I tried to get at that when I mentioned that the boat is usually moving forward -- the actual distance you cover left to right (front of the boat to back) is a lot more than what it looks like on paper. Imagine extending your arms straight out and pulling them straight back again. You just made the shape of an i but the lure actually is making an s in the water as the boat's movement is carrying the lure forward at the same time.
So the straightaway following what you're calling turn 2 actually covers less water than the one coming back the other way unless the boat is not moving forward
For guys like you who can actually read the fish and react in time, the 8 is probably never the same twice. For me I probably do it pretty much the same every time unless there's a fish, in which case I'm at about 50% "let's trigger this fish" and 50% "oh sh*t, oh sh*t"
and as for the late arrivals? I don't know if you bring them in casting or of you're drifting over their head when you do the 8 and that's what brings them up, but the only thing I can think of is a few more 8's might have done the trick.
But how much time do you spend figure 8'ing before you blew through the spot and missed a few potentially productive casts?
Edited by esoxaddict 10/13/2006 2:00 PM
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| JLong,
The old debate continues...LOL !!! For the simple fact that the average length of fish I catch is somewhere in the 46+" category (means I'm catching a few 50"ers in the process), and 25% of those are in figure 8's, I don't think I'm capable of keeping my thumb from getting buried under the thumbar! OUCH!!!!!!!!!!! 
As far as the "late followers," I have fixed this issue...and actually learned from my son Weston! He does a Figure 16 or 24 EVERY SINGLE CAST! His catch ratio on Figure 8's is better than 40%....he is incredible! Colton has learned to do it just as well!!
Donnie ;-) |
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Posts: 19
| Awesome tips. I have personally witnessed bn stick two muskies on back to back casts both on figure 8's. Bn really knows his stuff. One thing that I did learn from bn is that the longer rods he uses aids in an effective figure 8. I just purchased an 8ft rod because of that very reason. I think bn uses 8.5ft rods. He is on top of his game. My questions is how many of you once you see a fish that turns off before the figure 8 do many figure 8's or stop after a few. I have had 4 times this year where a fish turned off and seemed not to hot on the bait and I went into the figure 8, deep and shallow and on my 6th or 7th figure 8 had the muskie just slam the bait. If was as if the muskie was still there but below the bait? sure wakes you up on the 7th turn when he comes out from below the boat. I am not as experienced as alot of you guys but it sure opened my eyes with regards to not giving up on a fish after only a few figure 8's. Just wondering if anybody else has had the same experience. |
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| *don't make small turns with larger fish..big fish need room to turn.
i've had quite a few newer or first-time muskie fishermen in my boat the last couple years, and they tend to pick up on the figure-8 idea quickly since they haven't yet developed the bad habits (like me...) of doing a lazy-L or just firing off another cast!
the two biggest errors i see them making:
- performing "small" figure-8s with tight turns that end up being more like just swishing the bait back and forth a bit at boatside.
- not reeling the line up up all the way, resulting in the lure "cutting off" the turns of the figure-8, resulting again in too small or tight turns.
i encourage them to go as wide as possible in the turns and make sure to reel up so that the leader is just barely short of the tip of the rod.
long rods help a lot!
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Posts: 1938
Location: Black Creek, WI | Donnie.... I don't understand where the fear of jamming your thumb under the thumbar comes from. I've been freespooling since I was a kid (small hands) and have never had my thumb want to follow the spool. The spool should slide/slip under your thumb... just like a drag system. Only difference is that you can FEEL how much line is being played out... whereas when the drag feeds line you have no idea when or how much..... unless maybe you leave your "clicker" on? heh heh I know... it will always be an endless debate on that subject.... as its all personal preference. You trust your drag and I don't. You have a fear of pain (heh heh) and THINK your thumb will get jammed, and I don't. Thus, we each have different preferences. Both methods obviously work just fine.
EA..... man your boat much be cruisin' most the time (ha ha). I guess when I have a fish engaged on my bait.... everything else in the world is negligible and I focus on just the fish and my bait. If the wind is blowing my boat at 10 MPH... I don't care... as all I'm monitoring is the distance between the fish and my bait.... and how it may be changing.... and I adjust as needed to try and get the fish to move up on the lure. Whether the boat is moving or at a complete stand-still... it doesn't really matter as long as you just watch the fish and your bait.
Oh... and Donnie.... so you are saying I'd probably convert more of those "late arrivals" if I extend my lazy L-turn into several laps of an 8 after every cast? Makes sense... but what about the arguement that making more casts is a better investment than those "blind" figure 8's? My "justification" for a lazy L-turn (but I watch like a hawk for fish to show themselves at that point) is that I have a better chance of boating a fish that has engaged the lure prior to boatside.... reducing the value of "blind 8's". Perhaps that is a misconception? |
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Posts: 572
| esoxaddict,
yes, a lot of fish swim off before the bait is back into their sight. However, I figure those fish were probably going to loose interest anyway. Besides, the hooking power of really setting the hooks while the fish is pointed away from the boat helps in catching the fish.
I wonder how many muskies hit (and are caught) after the first figure 8. That's the ones that you see follow. I'll take my chances on bringing the bait back over the muskie's head.
Of course, emphasis should be made on what to do before the lure reaches the boat, which is another item. Depending on the mood and lure, I like to pause or rip the lure when it is about 10 feet from the boat. I even like to pause a top water bait for a second when I see a muskie following it.
I wonder who came up with the idea of doing a figure 8. What a great idea. |
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Posts: 177
Location: Cohasset, MN | Thanks for the info. Great diagram - kind of a crazy mini-roller coaster ride for the lure. I know I've been guilty of making the first turn away from the boat and then coming in the rest of the way for the 8. I'm probably also guilty of trying to keep the bait purposely at the same depth. Some things to work on, huh ? |
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Posts: 620
Location: Seymour, WI | One thing I'll add is that I get a lot more fish to go into the 8 if the transition from cast to 8 is so smooth that the fish don't even notice it.
If your bait is coming in perpendicular to the boat, I find that lots of fish spook at the boat when a sharp L turn is made. But if you can get bait running almost parallel to the boat as the lure comes in, the fish just naturally follow it into the 8, and then you've got em.
Grass, |
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Location: Contrarian Island | I had a very late arrival this weekend that was kind of comical....fishing a shallow lake that had a pretty good algae bloom, and no it wasn't turnover, I was throwing a walleye orange mag dawg, brought the bait in, did a full figure 8 as I figured I better with that dirty water...so get done, and I bent over to adjust the footpedal and had the dawg sitting there right at the waters surface just barely in the water....all of a sudden, swoooosh! big swirl right at my bait...didn't see the fish...so I say to Dan, did you SEE that! he's like no, but I heard it...so I take the bait, into a full figure 8 again.....fish comes up from below the boat and smokes the dawg....44"er or so, set the hook but had an awkward angle to really give her the berries...fish comes up head shaking, mouth wide open right at the boat, and throws the bait back at us...i just sat there and laughed..
I did some figure 8's while opening the spool and I have come to the conclusion I don't like it...i don't feel i will get enough good leverage for the spool not to slip under my thumb to really get a good hookset...for those like JLong that do it that way do you lose quite a few fish that don't get hooked good...
Figure 8 fish are addicting but I still say nite fish takes the cake!
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Posts: 1938
Location: Black Creek, WI | Brad.... I've had whacky encounters like that too... but not regular enough to make me think a full figure8 after every cast is worth the investment. Everyone will have their own personal preference... and if you have the discipline to do a full 8 every time... all the power to ya. It certainly can't be a BAD investment.
As far as being in freespool during a hookset..... you can LOCK the spool very easily with your thumb. In fact, I bet my thumb is stronger than my drag as far as literally locking the spool tight so no line feeds out. For example.... I lost my favorite TripleD this fall by getting snagged on a deep log crib. Its a long story... but I broke my Lure Retriever in the process and had to ultimately sacrifice the bait. Instead of cutting my line... I tried pulling the lure free hoping that the hooks would let loose rather than my line breaking. To spare the torque on the gears and anti-reverse... I put the reel in freespool... turned the trolling motor on high, and headed out to sea. No line was given... and I hardly had to put any pressure on the spool with my thumb. Eventually the Tuff Line won and I either had to do "the cleat trick" or take a swim...... or intentionally feed some line with my thumb. I fed line with my thumb to avoid taking a swim and then used the cleat in order to break the line. So.... my point is.... if you don't want a fish to take line... your thumb/freespool is more than capable to prevent it... even with a Joe Bucher, across your shoulders, power hookset during a Figure8.... which, in my opinion.... is not necessary. With the up-close and personal nature of a figure8 strike... usually you are pulling the lure back against the grain... placing the hooks nicely in the corner of the mouth... where a lot of power and force isn't necessary to bury the hooks.
So.... I'm not saying freespooling is for everyone... I'm just trying to avoid any misconceptions about it. If some people are not using freespool for the mis-belief that they cannot control the line well enough ie. lock the spool or loosen it enough... I feel they may be missing an opportunity.... so don't rule it out until you've tried it yourself and make your OWN opinion. As Brad stated... its not for him.... and thats OK. For me... its the only way to go. |
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