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| Message Subject: But who really uses swallow rigs? | |||
MuskyTime |
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Posts: 331 Location: Stevens Point, Wisconsin | In reading the post about better educating people on the effects of swallow sucker rigs I offer a separate question? What percentage of single hook swallow rig fishermen are actually sport fishing? I'm under the assumption that those who use these rigs do so with the intent to keep the fish they catch. If my assumption is correct than what good will education do? If their intention is to harvest a fish they will use whatever means necessary to do so. In my opinion the only way to solve fish mortality due to these rigs, is to completely illuminate single hook swallow rigs all together. Education will only affect sport fishermen IMHO and that is a very small population of fishermen......or are there more sport fishermen out there than I realize that are using these rigs? Ed Edited by MuskyTime 10/2/2006 8:59 AM | ||
| pete_k |
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| The myth of the hooks being dissolved by the fish is why kill rigs are still used. | |||
| esoxaddict |
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Posts: 8831 | This is just opinion Ed, but who I think it is are the guys who don't have a lot of experience, maybe never fished suckers before. They decide on the way to the lake "Hey, we should get some suckers!" So they find the closest bait shop walk in and ask for "sucker rigs"... Never rigged one, never used one, follow instructions on package... Then when they catch a fish they look at each other and say "I always heard hooks dissolve in a few days if fish swallow them anyway. Besides -- it's the toughest fish in the lake, it will be fine" After a few times of doing this, and catching fish, maybe somebody tells them about quickstrike rigs. They might even buy one. But inevitably they wil go back to their kill rigs because "that's the way we always did it and we caught a lot of fish and they all swam away"... | ||
| BNelson |
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Location: Contrarian Island | I saw something I didn't want to see this weekend...so I see a large orange bobber 75 feet off shore...sure enough, guy has the rod propped up in the back of the boat...where is the angler? huh, nowhere to be seen...guess he was maybe watching it from the house...think that was a quick strike? gimme a break. whatever was going to hit that sucker was going to be dead, 30", 35", 45" ...whatever..dead...they should be outlawed like Ed says....education will get you nowhere with a certain percentage of the angling population. | ||
| Pete Stoltman |
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Posts: 663 | My experience in dealing with people looking for single hook rigs in the shop has been mostly with "old timers" or as someone else mentioned a casual fisherman who decides that it's "musky season" so he should soak a sucker while he's fishing for his intende catch of walleye or crappies. Most of these folks are unaware of the stuff that we have been talking about and researching for years. A good amount of them intend to kill any "keepers" they get either for the wall or consumption. I had a long conversation a week ago with an elderly couple who wanted a single hook rig. It took quite a lot of non-confrontational discussion and explanation before they finally decided they would give one of those quickset rigs a try. As the old gentleman told me, he was taught how to musky fish by his father who said that whenever a musky grabbed a sucker he would light up a fresh cigar and then not set the hook until the cigar was finished. There is still a lot of education that needs to be done. | ||
| MuskyTime |
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Posts: 331 Location: Stevens Point, Wisconsin | Pete, Nice to see your post, if anyone would know how popular these rigs are, it would be someone that works in a bait shop. Sounds like there is enough people that use these rigs for "sport fishing"; At least more than I thought were out there. Education I hope changed the ways of the elderly couple Pete served, so it certainly can take an important roll in reducing the use of these kill rigs. We can only hope that the effect Pete had on that couple will have a ripple effect and they educate others in their circle. I of course know how important education is in changing the minds of those who use these rigs, just wish they were made illegal. One thought Pete…. What about educating bait shop owners from selling these rigs all together? (Not directed at any specific bait shop) By illuminating the drug so to speak you illuminate the user. I have a hard time believing a shop owner would loose his shirt by not offering these rigs. If someone specifically asked for a rig that would be a great opportunity to educate them and sell a quick strike rig. Ed | ||
| Kingfisher |
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Posts: 1106 Location: Muskegon Michigan | Educating shop owners good Idea. If you outlaw single hooks you have to outlaw treble hooks and circle hooks as well. You guys who think its the rig baffle me. Over here in Michigan guys have been killing pike with treble hooks for 40 years by letting them swallow the rig. How many time must I say this . There is no such thing as a Kill rig. They are all kill rigs and they are all quick set rigs. If there are instructions on the packaging telling an angler to let a fish swallow this hook then you have a case for having your D.N.R. have that language removed from said products. Quick setting is an action not a product. Actions require education to change them. Your answer to single hooks is quick strike rigs with treble hooks and Im telling you that trebles have been killing sub legal pike over here for 40 years. Wake up. Its not the rigs its the people using them. There is no other way than education to stop this killing from happening. You guys should force warnings to be put on "all" hook rigs like they do with cigarettes. Example: Tests have proven that hooks swallowed by all fish cause death in most instances . We the Department of Fisheries recomend quick setting methods to protect sublegal s of all species. Put this on the packages instead of instructions to let them swallow it. These warnings should be added to your booklets that are issued along with fishing licenses. Is this so hard to get a hold of??? We are in the same battle over here but over here its treble hooks that are being swallowed. Should we ban treble hook sucker rigs??? absolutly not!! My goal is to have in the 2008 Michigan regulations a warning regarding fish mortality due to ingested hooks(all hooks). Kingfisher | ||
| Pete Stoltman |
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Posts: 663 | Thanks Ed. The old couple was kind of funny. The guy finally agreed to try the quickset but told me if he lost a fish he was going to come back and give me heck for it. I told him that if he lost one I'd take him out and show him how to use it right. We both laughed and it ended up being a good experience for all concerned. As for shops carrying single hook rigs that's another story altogether. I find a lot of general purpose bait shops that really don't cater to musky fishermen much but figure they have to carry some musky stuff during the season are the guys who keep those on hand. Frankly, I don't know if talking to a shop owner would change his mind about stocking kill rigs or not. I guess it's worth a try. My whole key to attempting to educate people about kill rigs is to do it in a non-confrontational way. You can convert some like the old couple and others will continue to use them. At best you might give them something to think about and "plant a seed". | ||
| Kingfisher |
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Posts: 1106 Location: Muskegon Michigan | One other very dangerous fact, P.E.T.A. is watching you all right now. They want all live bait fishing banned. They want all hooks banned and if you guys cant settle this issue in Wisconsin and keep all hooks legal. They will have scored a huge victory in thier quest to eliminate sport fishing with hooks. We as sportfishermen can not afford to give them one stinking inch!!!! Get warnings put on the packaging of every live bait rig sold single and treble . Have these warnings placed in regulation booklets that are issued to everyone purchasing a license. If you get this done swallow tactics will fade away and we can all put this issue away for good. Kingfisher | ||
| Pete Stoltman |
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Posts: 663 | You raise some good points Kingfisher. I tend to use the term "kill-rigs" to emphasize the intention of that set-up. Yes, a quick-set can kill a fish if used improperly however the design and concept is to use as an immediate hooksetting technique. I think the name "quickset" that most of the manufacturers use gives a clear indication of how that rig is supposed to be used. I don't think many people would deny that the concept behind the traditional single hook sucker rig is to allow the musky to swallow the bait and then hook them in the guts. Whether you agree or disagree with the intention of this technique the method and intended result is pretty clearcut. | ||
| MRoberts |
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Posts: 714 Location: Rhinelander, WI | I hate to bring this topic back to the top as it has been beat to death. But the question asked in this thread is very relevant, plus I recently heard a very interesting story directly related to this. I have a good friend who I am slowly converting into a musky fisherman. He works at the Chicago Mercantile Exchange and commutes to his home in Rhinelander on the weekends. Any way he was talking to a gentleman who also works at the Merc. The guy was telling him about his weekend trip up north musky fishing. They where fishing north eastern Wisconsin. Eagle River, Bolder, Minocqua area, I am not sure but hope to find out. They had a group of 12 guys, 6 boats all fishing with nothing but suckers. All using single hook swallow rigs. This was the first time on the trip for this guy and his partner, they went into a bait shop and where told that since they weren’t experienced the single hook rig would probably work best for them. The dealer told them to just cut the leader and the fish would be fine. My friend has since educated him and the guy felt very bad and couldn’t believe that the baitshop owner didn’t know better and misinformed them in such a bad way. My guess is the baitshop owner doesn’t know any better because that is what he has always done and he doesn’t read musky publications. Luckily the group struck out on this trip but apparently they average 4 to 5 fish a year, all on single hooks. If education is going to be the key an active campaign by musky clubs is needed, brochures in every bait shop throughout musky country and signs at landings. At the very least. Nail A Pig! Mike | ||
| Pete Stoltman |
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Posts: 663 | Mike, thanks for relating that story. If you find out what shop that was please pm me or send an e-mail. I have a feeling there are some shop owners who DO know better but tell guys to use the single hook rigs because they'd rather have a guy tell everyone about the great advice they got from the shop. Actually I would agree that for an inexperienced angler it's almost a sure bet if they let a fish swallow a sucker for half an hour plus and then let er rip. Too bad. I have some suspicions about who some of these shopowners are but would be interested if confirmed. | ||
| randy t |
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| I was in Reeds in Brainard and they still have kill rigs for sell, right next to the musky gear. I looked up a sells man and inquired about them and he didn't think that it was a big deal. Great store but what a disapointment, I've always thought that Jeff Arnold. the owner was a very pro muskies and muskies inc type of guy. The bait stores in Hayward took them off the shelves a couple of years ago. Come on Reeds lets get with the times. | |||
| Kingfisher |
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Posts: 1106 Location: Muskegon Michigan | We got guys over here in Michigan who just sell the treble hook and a separate braided steel leader. They sell guys a couple of tip ups and tell them to let the fish take the bait and run with it. When the fish stops and turns the sucker then let the fish run with it again count to 50 and set the hook. Of course this results in gut hooked walleyes,pike and Muskies. I really think its all about the instructions on the packages. the study that was done on the swallowed hooks needs to be brought out into the open every where. But I stress that the message should be that any hook swallowed be it single,double or treble will cause death in most cases . This applies to every species of fish out there from Blue gills to sturgeon. Brook trout have been fed hooks for as long as I can remember. Tip ups with trebles and your single hook sucker rigs. All hooks are guilty of killing fish equally and that is why outlawing one type is absolute nonsense . This issue affects fish of all species all over the country and should be exposed and attacked as such. It should be done to protect SUB LEGAL FISH OF ALL SPECIES. In the name of conservation,preserving the resources for the future a real effort to educate the general public as to the danger of allowing fish to ingest hooks is needed. Any attempt to single out one type of hook or lure will accomplish nothing but give the enemy(peta) a victory. You and I will never stop every fish from swallowing lures and hooks as they manage to eat Jack pots and take weagles too deep. I had a hard time last week with a bull dawg that got taken way to deep almost killed a nice 40 inch Musky. If someone had not educated me 20 years ago that long handled pliers and jaw spreaders were needed when fishing for Pike and Muskie I would have killed that fish. I was educated to the fact that quick setting worms while brook trout fishing saved a ton of under sized Brookies and the same with my single treble hook tip up rigs. Why is it hard to believe that education works? Im living proof and so are all of you. Quit whining and spread the word. Tell someone who needs to be told like your relatives who still feed hooks to bluegills and pike. Show some guy the right way to use a single hook or show him a better rig that will help them catch a fish. Kingfisher | ||
| guts |
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Posts: 556 | esoxaddict - 10/2/2006 10:58 AM good point and i know alot of people do this even me sometimes that somebody tell you something that may be right but you don't beleave what they say the ncome a few months later you find out he was right or you may not same with the o they will desolve it thing catch my drift? gutsThis is just opinion Ed, but who I think it is are the guys who don't have a lot of experience, maybe never fished suckers before. They decide on the way to the lake "Hey, we should get some suckers!" So they find the closest bait shop walk in and ask for "sucker rigs"... Never rigged one, never used one, follow instructions on package... Then when they catch a fish they look at each other and say "I always heard hooks dissolve in a few days if fish swallow them anyway. Besides -- it's the toughest fish in the lake, it will be fine" After a few times of doing this, and catching fish, maybe somebody tells them about quickstrike rigs. They might even buy one. But inevitably they wil go back to their kill rigs because "that's the way we always did it and we caught a lot of fish and they all swam away"... | ||
| bnelson |
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| Kingfisher I think your points are valid but I have to say I strongly disagree education will work with everyone. There are certain people who will continue to use kill rigs regardless of any education they may get on how it could kill the fish. That is how their grandfather did it, that is how their dad did it and noone will tell them otherwise...sorry but I think you are living in a dream world if you think just education will win the battle on kill/swallow rigs... It would be much easier I think to try and get all the baits stores we can to just plain stop selling them...sure a guy can make his own but it would go a long way in stopping the guy that goes up musky fishing 2 x a year and in the fall says to his buddies, "hey we should throw out a sucker" and they grab a swallow rig...those guys are not on the net, not reading musky mags and they will not ever get any message we may send on the issue...just my 2 cents. | |||
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