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Posts: 2361
| I find that on the waters I know extremely well in terms of a casting bite, I tend to fish patterns I know produce fish, to the point where I am happy to keep casting, rather than trying something different. I am so confident of location that I usually interpret no bite as an activity indicator, not some failure in my approach. So, on my known waters I accept failure due to the fact that my confidence level is so high that I figure they can and probably will bite at any time. When I consider this it seems kind of dull, but on the other hand my mpy keeps going up as my days actually decline a little. I will add that generally I like to see them bite, so this does limit my presentation a bit.
Do you do more experimenting on new or well known waters? |
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Location: oswego, il | It depends. I might try a new tactic on a new body of water, especially if I wanted to try the new tactic and felt this was a body of water to ty it on. I am never afraid to try something different to be honest. I woll not completley abandon tried and true but trying something new is a good way to imrove oneself. |
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Posts: 1168
| Maybe I've been reading too much from the gospel of Dick Pearson but I look at confidence as an edge. On new water I'll use tactics I am confident in. On waters I am familiar with I'll experiment. The successful tactic is an edge on the unfamiliar water and the familiar water is an edge when trying new things.
On the water that I know best this past year the only time I stuck to known areas and tactics were during league nights and when I had someone in the boat with me and even then I devoted at least one drift to new areas doing known tactics or known areas doing new tactics. I got out alot by myself this year and most of those times I spent experimenting and overall it really paid off.
Maybe it was dumb luck but overall I had real good success on new water sticking to methods that put fish in the boat for me in the past. I'd like to think it was because I tried to stay disciplined in sticking to proven tactics.
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Location: The Sportsman, home, or out on the water | I have musky ADD, so versitility is not an option, its a NESSESITY. LOL
Edited by muskynightmare 12/18/2005 11:36 PM
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I move about alot fishing almost every stitch of water from 1' to the basin line. Where I need to expand horizons is past that line looking for more suspended fish. We can't motor troll here, so that's out, but I could row troll.  |
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Posts: 2361
| sworrall - 12/19/2005 7:42 AM
I move about alot fishing almost every stitch of water from 1' to the basin line. Where I need to expand horizons is past that line looking for more suspended fish. We can't motor troll here, so that's out, but I could row troll. :)
And of course you have obviously discovered muskies in all those areas from 1 feet to basin line, but I am guessing that you have found concentration areas that make you less likely to throw into 1 foot in some spots and less likely to throw to the basin line in some spots, since you and I both know all spots aren't of equal value. Hmmm, that brings us back to the theme of this post, so, how much row trolling have you done? 
I am guessing that you are saying, in a broader way, is that you have tried a bunch of stuff in a bunch of areas on your home lake, and you generally now have established what works, and where they are, and unless something radical occurs to you or is presented to you about some aspect of your fishing, you have already created your maps and presentation plans for your HOME lake? |
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Posts: 1937
Location: Black Creek, WI | It comes down to a balance of available time vs. known productive "patterns".
If I have ample time on a water I know well... and feel I've exhausted what I THINK I know... then I'll experiment. If I have less time than things to try.... I'll beat a dead horse and hope it works.
On "new" water, aren't you "experimenting" the entire time?
jlong |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I actually cover water on my home lake if things are 'off' that I don't associate with a pattern or established norm for location, especially if it 'feels' like the fish should be moving and I'm not getting any action. Moen Chain, for example. The 'norm' there is boat position just outside the weedline to 1 cast or a bit more into the weeds. The weedbeds allow for as much as 3 or 4 casting distances into shore. If I am not moving fish and think I should be, I might just go into 1.5 or 2' and cast OUT for an hour or two, a full casting distance away from where the bait would normally be landing. I might also leave the windy shore and head into slop on a calm shore, breaking another norm. In other words, I do weird things out there if I am not moving fish and think I should be. If I see a panfisherman catching fish in an area I haven't tried, I'll try that too. |
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Posts: 720
| Hi First,
I have to say if it is'nt broke don't fix it. If you are on a certain pattern on a certain lake at a certain time of year and you have confidence in it then stick to it. You know it works. I see musky fishing is a lot like deer hunting. Deer establish patterns and routes if you are lucky or skillful enough to key in on those patterns and routes than oppurtunity will rear its ugly head. The same thing applies to musky fishing. The wrench in this plan can be a number of things weather, water temps, and water clarity. You make your adjustments accordingly but maintain your fishing activties to the areas that have held musky or deer in the past. Adjustments are key maybe deeper or tighter to the cover. Changes lure size,color and speed all should be considered in the process. The one constant is genral area that you've keyed in on for season after season. Barring a major change in structure or water level fish will tend to use the same areas season after season.
Thanks
Dave |
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Posts: 2361
| jlong - 12/19/2005 9:23 AM
It comes down to a balance of available time vs. known productive "patterns".
If I have ample time on a water I know well... and feel I've exhausted what I THINK I know... then I'll experiment. If I have less time than things to try.... I'll beat a dead horse and hope it works.
On "new" water, aren't you "experimenting" the entire time?
jlong
Actually you are bringing a blueprint with you to all strange water, and the tools to build your success
ie
Your arsenal of baits and retrieves(in your case, that shoulder killing 10" Jake)
Your knowledge of your target and its relationship with structure and cover
Your knowledge of potential forage and its relationship with structure and cover
Your historical clarity, temperature, wind, and seasonal data
etc
and my guess is that you are still fishing your "home waters" in your head-until lack of fish contact makes you engage in deviant musky fishing behaviours to try and contact the missing fish.
I know that on my home water, I am fishing historical patterns and fishing for historical fish, even when I am not getting bit, the fish exists in my head so strongly that I am confident that it will bite, if not sooner, then later. But, when I go someplace new the fish in my head does not have such a solid existance and begins to waver and disappear in just a few hours without a fish.
That may be why tourney fisherman dial zero on their home lakes so often during tourneys. They are fishing for "historical head fish" rather than "todays fish". If the fish are not particularly active, their historical data works against them? If there is a very active bite do the locals usually cash? I would expect them to profit from their experience in this case. Probably this is not a new thought.
I don't feel inflexible when I keep casting for my fish in the places I expect them to be. I have locked them in over a number of years and feel that on a day to day basis, I derive limited benefit from going outside of the box at this time, and am unwilling to fish certain other methods(ie trolling)just to get numbers of fish or size. Many days I might explore only 1 new element, but if they are very active, I will probably not explore anything, simply go out and catch fish. However if I go to a new lake, I have a much more open mind about ways to try and make fish contact, heck, I might even throw a 10" Jake.
What would your solution be to your angling being history bound?
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Posts: 1937
Location: Black Creek, WI | Many days I might explore only 1 new element, but if they are very active, I will probably not explore anything, simply go out and catch fish. However if I go to a new lake, I have a much more open mind about ways to try and make fish contact, heck, I might even throw a 10" Jake.
What would your solution be to your angling being history bound?
FSF, my solution is still a matter of Time Management. On a lake that you have a wealth of history... it should take you longer to exhaust all your proven spots and patterns. But.... how many similar spots do you need to work over with no fish contact before you decide that THAT pattern is a bust TODAY?
On a new lake... you are just trying to find ANY pattern that will produce. I don't really see that as being too different that fishing your HOME lake... other than on your home lake you are trying to find WHICH pattern will produce TODAY. Same thing... only different
Both situations you will go through a series of Location Progressions. Once you exhaust a variety of different locational patterns.... you might back track and go through a series of Lure Progressions. How quickly you run through these progressions may be influenced by your PAST HISTORY on home waters... but its still kinda the same excercise... isn't it?
I guess on familiar water I'll stick it out longer looking for an active fish with a search lure.... since I'll have a longer list of proven locations to check.... before hunkering down with a less efficient but highly effective presentation. But I still see that as a form of TIME MANAGEMENT. How can you get the best Return on your Investment (ROI)? Camping vs. Run&Gun???? Hmmm... where have I heard that before????
jlong |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Acronyms aside: this actually has been a popular subject matter here in different intensities for three years at least--
1) Location---right? gotta be where at least some of the fish are, or no fish CAN hit
1A) How many locations on any one given day on any one given body of water? Let's say three, just for drill
a) Weedline, classic drop off primary break
b) Rocks, classic primary break
c) Slop, a subset of factors related to weedlines and the primary bereak and proximity to good slop weeds,reeds, etc.
d) At least some Forage is available for all spots, or they wouldn't be spots
2) Presentation---gotta have on a lure. The lure has to be efficient in working the loaction. If it's too heavy, doesn't work through or over the weeds, etc., it will not be efficient. Eliminate inefficiency, fish lures that have the right depth control, speed, and contrast for the location. Library of the mind here, from experience. Two anglers? Try opposing styles that have the correct attributes. EG. Subsurface heavy weeds on the break, very close and sometimes breaking the surface. Spinnerbait and topwater. Or Suick and bucktail, if you are good with a bucktail in cover. You get the point.
Some folks are just plain better at selecting the location for the conditions that will score first, it's experience and library of the mind, plus a bit of good old common sense. Not much of that left in fishing anymore, near everything muskie angling related these days has to be somehow catagorized outside of common sense in an article or a video, which is supremely irritating for me.
3) Time on the water/sky conditions: How long are you going to be fishing?
a) What water can you effectively cover? Select areas that will give you a 'barometer' of activity in the timeframe you have to be on the water; based on your library- of -the- mind subset of conditions/activity/location information stored from experience.
b) Is it bright and sunny with little wind or windy and sunny or cloudy and windy or cloudy and still....select a piece of water that allows the muskies the comfort they seek for the conditions you are fishing, use a presentation that is effecient for that water, and cover the water carefully, at the speed you CAN without missing large sections. Library of the mind on familiar waters, obvious stuff from the contour map on new.
c) Use your sonar to stay on the road, don't crash through the guardrail all the time, or you are not eliminating water and patterns. No fish? Hit location number 2, whichever your choice in the rotation that might be. Eliminate that water and efficient presentation. No fish? Go to number three. No fish? If there's time, it's thinking out of the box time. the fish HAVE to be one or all of those places, right? OK, they didn't go. Why?
4) Acknowledge failure to this point, change your approach. Let's say next in the rotation for me is the slop. I fished it last time outside edge in. This time, I might go plumb smack down the middle,casting both ways. If I can reach the edge from the inside, I might go very shallow and fish out. Presentation is totally different- same location- maybe different results.
a) Do same with location 2
b) Do same with location 3---still no fish?
5) BREAK THE MOLD----or, if you think the fish simply are not 'going' which is the probability, do what you did over again, until you run out of time.
a) Breaking the mold---go somewhere you NEVER fish. Say a sand break that drops suddenly into 30' from 4'. A back bay that has never drawn your interest. Whatever, just move to a new piece of water. Pick the proper presentation for efficiency, and repeat the steps eliminating water again. Once you have eliminated that water, if you indeed move fish or catch them, now you have FOUR locations on that water for the next trip. When you run out of places to go, and have covered the lake or river completely using all presentations at your disposal, you can comfortably say you 'know' that water. There it is in the library of the mind, stored away, so if you encounter similar water elsewehre, there's a good chanceyou have an effective presentation already well practicied for that water. And so on.
What if the fish are truly just 'off'? Well, that's the one thing there is nothing to be done about, enjoy the day anyway,it beats working.
I cover the PWT and FLW Walleye trails for WalleyeFIRST, and watch some of the best walleye anglers in the world compete on waters many of them have NEVER fished for a prize package worth $65000 to $80000. Some will find the crankbait bite, others the jig bite, others the rig bite, etc, and it's a good bet some (not all, not most---some) will know ALL the available loactions and adapt their own special subset presentation to those locations they are able to in the week or so of 'practice' they have pre-event. The trick is to then read conditions on Day one and go to the Location where the most active/largest/slot/(even THAT is part of the decision) fish will be. What if there are 23 boats there already? Maybe not a big deal, because you have a specialized presentation the rest might not have, and in you go and hold a clinic. Maybe it IS a big deal, nothing to be done special there and it's luck of the draw and your boat's top end speed that determines who will get on that bite early. Then what? Location 2. Not so different than what we muskie guys try to do, really, just alot more pressure applied.
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Posts: 2361
| "it's experience and library of the mind, plus a bit of good old common sense. Not much of that left in fishing anymore, near everything muskie angling related these days has to be somehow catagorized outside of common sense in an article or a video, which is supremely irritating for me. " S. Worall
Sounds good, hey, maybe you could do an article or a video on it!;)
Of course Steve you realize that some anglers have extensive libraries of these fishing articles, and even computerized bookmarking systems so they can draw on all the articles covering these special categories outside of common sense, and then access their reference system so they can quote these various sages. It almost makes me feel guilty that I sold off 28 years worth of mags in the last two years, no telling how much I have handicapped myself by doing that. Probably cost me several big ones this year. |
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Location: Black Creek, WI | sworrall - 12/19/2005 5:41 PM
Some folks are just plain better at selecting the location for the conditions that will score first, it's experience and library of the mind, plus a bit of good old common sense.
Wow... that quote could become LEGENDARY.
I think common sense is overlooked all too often. One thing I've noticed is that newcomers to the sport that are overwhelmed with the vast quantities of information available.... forget about using plain old common sense. They ask questions.... with the expectation of a definitive answer.
Is this how you are supposed to work this lure?
How deep should we be fishing?
Is this too fast of a retrieve?
Its sunny out, what color should I be using?
Shouldn't we be fishing the windy shoreline?
Etc. Etc.
Sure... experience gives you confidence in relying on YOUR OWN common sense... but NOONE has all the answers. Even the best sticks out there can't answer those questions and must wet a line... rely on trial and error.... to answer them.
So... FSF.... if you honestly believe that your experience can tell you exactly what spot and what pattern will produce on any given day... and then you beat the snot out of that pattern relentlessly without "testing" some other potential patterns.... I'd suggest when you do finally score... it was a self-fulfilling prophecy. Don't get me wrong... I start every day with a strong hunch for what I feel will produce and give it a fair shot... but I think SWORRAL outlined a great process for avoiding the "beat a dead horse" syndrome. His summation is very close to how I approach every day on the water.
jlong |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | FSF,
Some folks will miss what I think you actually were saying, so I'll clarify; Library of the Mind is not just what one has read, bookmarked or catagorized, it's all the information stored in the grey matter from time on the water and all other sources of information, like this thread. The important thing here is recognizing that the information IS there, and accessing it instead of freaking out and 'doing the crappie' when the fish are not going. I'm pretty much agreeing with much of what's been said, I guess. The reference to the competitive walleye events is important, though. If you ever are near one of those, it's worth a couple hours to attend a weigh in. Those guys are intense, and as good as they come at ripping apart a body of water and finding fish. Yet even the best of the best have tough THREE DAY events where NO ONE does really well, because the 'bite' was off for whatever reasons. If 120 Pros and 120 Co Anglers don't catch many, then it's tough out there... |
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Location: Warroad, Mn | FSF:
I actually think it's almost exactly opposite of what you say (sounds like a lively discussion in the boat this winter). I feel that
familiarity is somewhat synonymous with experience, or perhaps time on the water.
In my experience the more time on the water you have the more likely you are to do something different if something isn't working. The more experience you have the more likely you are to try different things, and different locations. At least I know that I do. 40 years ago I would stick to my "milk run" religiously, and if nothing happened I would guess they weren't biting today.
Now if I spend an hour or two on the "milk run" and nothing is happening, by golly, I try something different. Sometimes what I try different is something that worked at one time, and is still in the "grey matter", (usually presentations). Some times what I try is something that's close to what worked, but never really tried before (usually areas). This is also what I would consider a function of experience. And finely if nothing is happening with all this I'll do somethings I've never tried before, and call it a learning experience, which goes into the memory bank, to be used again.
There very few days that I don't try some new spot, or a new presentation of some sort.
I have a real advantage in that I fish on the LOTWs and the spots are almost endless. I've been fishing LOTWs for 40 years and still discover many new spots (some great) every year that I've never tried before.
I'll bet a lot of this is due to the type and size of the lakes you fish. There are only so many good spots regardless of where you look, once you find most of them it's hard to find more, again a function of time on the water. The more good spots you know the less there are to find!
Bet we'll talk about this some more!
Doug Johnson
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| LOL, probably not so much, I was just mulling my fishing method over in my head a little, and if it would have sucked on any regular basis I am guessing I would have dipped, just wondered where most people continue to experiment, home or away.
I still think there is a lot of discussion left in, "People that fish alone are more tied to their baits than others"
I mull that one over every so often...I think I have my definitive reply ready. |
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Location: Warroad, Mn | FSF:
You know that last statement is probably more true that you think. One of the things a guide gets to do is to fish with lots of different folks. Many of them are d**m good fishermen. It's a poor guide who doesn't learn from his clients and visa versa!
Doug Johnson |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | That seals it, I have to get down there and spend a few hours in the boat with you guys, just to listen to the debate.....
Won't be too long now, the 2060 Walkthrough is in the finishing shop tomorrow... |
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Posts: 2361
| dougj - 12/20/2005 9:07 PM
FSF:
You know that last statement is probably more true that you think. One of the things a guide gets to do is to fish with lots of different folks. Many of them are d**m good fishermen. It's a poor guide who doesn't learn from his clients and visa versa!
Doug Johnson
There are a lot of interesting things involved in that statement. |
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