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| I was reading another post I started earlier this year(acoustic pressure wave, I had to get off of it, it got way too complicated for me and that sworrall "baits do not resemble forage", well you know how crazy that drives me) and was reading the new additions when I spied Doug Johnson's comments and he once again was riding his "location horse" and I think in his water there is great payback for the ability to sort locations...but what about us poor suckers who have tough lakes that are overpressured and everyone already knows the locations?
I know that many times I am in the seventh boat through the cove or the fifth boat across the bar. What ways have you found to cope with this and still manage to knock off fish behind the crowds? I'll show you mine if you show me yours.
You go first...[;)] |
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| Don't fret, my partner and I finished 16th in the Hodag this year. The guys who finished second, fished a cove after us and took two fish, one of which was a 48"er out of it. We had been through that bay 6 times and never raised a fish while throwing the same bait and color!
If it is time, it will happen. As hard as it is, treat every
cast like this is the one! |
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| When the water is getting pounded, I always try something different. I figure these fish are seeing the standard stuff over and over. I have a few odd crankbaits like a large flatfish, a mirror lure, a lesser used glider, even that uncle josh worm with legs. A different look and sound.
Didn't the Wiley boys do well on the PMTT this year by straying from the norm? |
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| Steve V probably has it as right as possible...the only real trick I know is persistence, and a Creature fished behind guys tossing bucktails. I have done very well with that.
Another thing to look at is the WAY the last boat through fished the water..I try to put my presentation to the fish at a different angle, if possible, and cover the water several ways before I leave.
Sure didn't mean to upset you with the Acoustic Pressure Wave thing, just telling it as I see it, backed up with logic, alittle science,and 30 plus years trying to figure that subject out, too. I never intend to put forward my ideas as iron fact, just what I have found in my search for what makes Muskies tick; I welcome the debate, and LOVE to be proven wrong, as I then learn something new!![:bigsmile:] |
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| In many many cases have I fished behind people on Pewaukee. Sometimes its 10 or more boats. The trick is to give the fish a different angle, use great boat control and keep positive. I always tell my clients, when they ask about the other boats. I tell them its only 2 boats, not 10, because the other eight dont know what they are doing.
Also, remember.. when the clock ticks.. and the window opens.. then they eat.. no matter how many boats passed over them. |
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| BY NO MEANS AM I IN THE CLASS OF THE LAST 2 FISHERMAN!This is my take,alot of where I fish is mega-pressured,easy a dozen boats by an area first and we still pull fish!Theres no magic,just boat control,timing and a better presentation then the guy before!(CONFIDENCE)Many times we will catch fish on the same bait as everyone else is throwing.In your mind and action you have to be doing it better then the other guy.I always tell myself when someone cuts in on a structure ahead of me that they are just getting the fish ready(primed)for me to stick!One other thing me and the boy just started toying with is creature fishing and for 2002season we will have a whole box dedicated to this tactic!There is just something about rubber to be more explored!This is just how I see it,just a guy and his son fishing already fished water!Good luck with it! Jeff |
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| Jason, I wish that you wouldn't make fun of me and my 7 friends in front of your clients! LOL! |
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| on my last trip we fished a small drain that connected two larger bodies of water. After the 6th or 7th pass we finally took a northern and after that takes just kept coming. I was convinced they were there but hey, why they started to bite so frequently after that one fish, I don't know. Used water can be the best if you ask me. |
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| Its always a simple equation in my boat. My partner and I don't ever think of a spot as being fished until our baits have been presented there. Kinda keeps things in perspective a little better for me. I always feel confident that I can catch a fish behind anyone. Doesn't always work but helps keep me going strong on those highly pressured areas that still hold fish.
Ler Em Go...Let Em Grow.....Mike |
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| I am not of the "my fate is predetermined" school of musky fishing. Figuring I always have free will and the ability to influence the events in a fishing day, I try and put as many things in my favor as I can control.
These are good perspectives. I would add timing to the list. Often you have a window of opportunity on lakes with lots of spots and you can, by observing hit spots that have lain dormant for 30 minutes or so, find a rested spot. This allows a pressured fish that has moved off his lie, or a fish that followed someone else's presentation, time to reposition into it's favored seat at the dinner table.
Of course sometimes the spots that get the rest are not producing fish but....
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| I absolutely never worry about 'clean water' at all here in Wisconsin. The fish may not go for me either, but if I am convinced the location is right, I get in line, and work the heck out of the area. |
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| Most of the spots on the Cave are spots where if 10 boats are in there... you can still fish with confidence. Kinkead is the same way in those small coves.[;)] |
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| Hmmmmm umph! Interesting take for Jason and Sworrall, but one I can't agree with. Kind of gets to be a "blind hog theory of musky fishing"(which in reality is partially true).
Do I then take from your comments if we are all fishing the same lake that you would yield first run to me because it makes no difference who goes thru the area first?? I think there is very much a first pass effect in most lakes, particularly with hungry fish that are ready to feed, the best kind.
As for the Cave I am not experienced enough to call myself an expert on it, but I will say that to me it shows the effects of a pressured lake in that it has the early morning-late day bite so common to pressured waters. And my experience has been that fish are picked ahead of me, not behind me, if there was no first pass effect then the two should be equal, since this would also predict that I would have no effect on productivity of the water I leave behind me.
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| Firstsixfeet, I can think right off the top of my head two times we have been burned by not being first through a spot. Both could have been avoided. I let pops run the front and he sometimes does not make himself aware of oncoming and overtaking boats and the spots we are fishing. He fishes more straight retrieve stuff and I fish more erratic so it works out better that he is in front. Basically not getting to the spot on the spot before the other boat does even though you are well ahead of them. |
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| I believe that most of the time it doesn't matter who is first or second or tenth even. There are sometimes when your first cast or pass will get you a fish but thats far from the norm. I am sure location is the most important factor in muskie fishing but even if you are fishing a spot with 10 other boats there is but that short period of time when the fish will eat and who knows who the lucky person will be. I mean you can be the only guy on the lake and catch nothing on your first couple of passes and do get one or two on your third. Look at it this way when I troll in the fall I don't always catch fish the first pass sometimes it's the 6th pass at the end of the day that scores the big fatty like yesterday.[:sun:] |
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| OK I believe there is an advantage in being the first boat on a spot that day. I even believe in an advantage in fishing in a lake the first week of opener before the fish see alot of baits. I'd even go as far as believing in some advantage of being the person fishing out of the front of the boat. However, I'm sure a few of the fish I have caught on unpressured water would have bite a 2X4 moving in front of them. I feel catching a fish behind someone is a more valuable fish in that it reflects my fishing abilities. |
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| I probably should have clarified my examples a little better. Both times mentioned were at first light under prime conditions. That 2x4 theory would come into play there. In one instance the musky was caught by a bass fisherman.
I have moved and caught fish when I could have been the 50th boat through the area. My waters get pounded thoroughly which is why my first post I offered to throw them something they have not seen. Lots of other good examples besides mine too. |
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| This is a great thread. Can't believe I missed it last year. As fishing pressure increases, we all must consider how to deal with it.
I have similar beliefs as FSF. I want to believe (but can't really prove) I have SOME control over my destiny and can improve my chances at boating a musky. Obviously we'd all like to take advantage of the "easy" fish that seem to readily hit the first lure (of any kind) tossed near them. This is where mastering location (which isn't just knowing the spot... but knowing when it will be most effective) really shines. Get better at putting yourself in the right place at the right time... and your success rate will improve regardless of lure selection.
Unfortunately, there is a lot of competition out there fighting to be on the same spot at the same time. If this is the case... find a new spot or learn to adapt. Sometimes there are secondary spots that can be just as productive but not as obvious to the average fisherman. Find these, and you won't need to fight the crowds on the popular spots. Same lake. Same fish. Just catch them at a different time and place.
You can catch fish through attrition (pound a proven spot over and over and over and over and over until it is finally the right time) or you can learn to find fish inbetween those well-known windows. To try and explain why you caught a fish from a specific spot 5 minutes after another boat just fished it is very complicated. These situations simply could be FATE.... or perhaps you offered something just different enough to get a response... or perhaps the fish finally moved onto the spot where it was supposed to be... or ?????????
Wish I knew.....
jlong |
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| This is a great topic and a guy could learn alot from reading some of the replies. I will apologize in advance if I sound like I'm repeating some points that have already been adressed, but I'll give my two cents worth also on pressured waters. I must be hanging around Jlong too much that I believe in alot what he has said also(or because we fish very similar circumstances on Sconie lakes). he,he,he
I'm a firm believer that there's a biological clock in many living organisms that trigger certain responses such as feeding, resting, and moving. That timing and location go hand in hand, and presentation also is an element that will definitely up the odds in your favor. Too frequently I've noticed feeding patterns that coincide with other anglers observations. It seems that the feeding time is usually locked in a certain time frame. I feel there's major feeding periods and minor feeding windows but that's a whole new topic. Never-the-less the being in the right place at the right time has some merit to it, but also does a proper presentation.
I've seen days that fish in the main basin of the lake are going like gang busters, while on some days the weed fish are really on the prowl. It appears that the fish are always moving and gravitating to certain areas. Sometimes those areas are popular, well-known spots while others are secondary areas that many people miss(Jlong already touched on this).
I believe that good spots will always remain good areas because many fish usually utilize the area. There's always new fish moving up on the structure. Weather, lighting conditions, and moon are factors that can work either for or against us. It's knowing through experience and intuition that will put you on fish. I usually don't become too concerned whether a few boats have just worked a certain area or pulled out a fish. I'll still throw a few casts, and make sure that I'm throwing a change up in contrast of what the other boat has done.
Now in contradiction to what I have just said about throwing a change up. I think everyone has a certain signature that they impart on a bait due to everyone's unique nature. This may be the winning combination in provoking a strike or calling a hot fish to the bait. So if you're dead set on tossing a bucktail because it's the hot pattern as of late. And you have noticed that the boats that have worked the spot were also throwing bucktails don't abandon what has been working. Just become more creative in your retrieve and be aware where your bait is in relation to the bottom.
Stike zones, I feel are a smaller piece of the puzzle that many anglers might neglect. It's not so much trying to be on the right place at the right time, but making sure that the correct bait is placed in the strike zone. Knowing how to read a fish's body posture and the activity on the water can help you decide the size that the strike zone is. If your getting lazy follows that hold way back on a bait than the strike zone may be very narrow. If the fish is nipping and flaring as it screams on your bait than the stike zone is much larger. By working a bait that enters the stike zone most effectively and hangs longer in the stike zone will determine success.
In closing, no doubt pressure on waters create more challenges, but by following sound mechanics in technique, location and sometimes just good intuition you'll score. It's time on the water, observing what is happening around you, and perservance that will pay off. As humans we all want the answers, but there's times when having all the answers still don't promise a fish in the boat. I often see life as a game in which certain odds can be achieve by performing certain acts. Up your odds by choosing the right location with the correct presentation. Who knows you may be lucky boat number 7 that gets the beast off the beaten path.
catch ya later,
Krappie |
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| Saw Jason Smith's post this morning and felt it was easier to revive this one rather than re-write the entire book. |
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| Don't forget the bank fishermen in the equation; worse case scenario would be to have someone like Carl Lewis to start musky fishing, and run from spot to spot sore mouthing "your" fish! What then???? [:blackeye:] |
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