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Location: Athens, Ohio | Hey, folks, I'm still new to this, so please help me out. I've heard a number of times that vertical holds on muskies, especially big ones, for photos is a NO NO, that you can dislocate a jaw or cause internal organ damage. My question is, have you or anyone you know actually lost (killed) or hurt a fish this way, or is this all just urban legend? thanks, m |
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Posts: 1310
Location: Washington, PA | I don't know of anyone that has any proof, but I would say it's more common sense than anything. |
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Posts: 1764
Location: Ogden, Ut | mikie,
It's real, and can be a problem. The hard part about quantifying it is that in either case (jaw damage/internal organ damage) the mortality is delayed. So whereas the fish may swim away 'fine', the death is seldom, if ever seen. The sheer weight of the fish is sometimes enough to damage the articulation points on a jaw, compromising the ability of the fish to feed effectively. Similarly, a muskies internal organs are subjuct to damage merely by being unsupported when out of the water. While in the water, the organs really don't need much support as they are nearly neutrally buoyant. It generally only pertains to larger fish however.
K. |
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Posts: 4266
| Check out some vertical hold photos and you sometimes see bleeding out of their "vent". As was mentioned before, water is needed to support a muskie's weight. Take away the water and hold them vertically, and all of their guts get affected by gravity and start to push downward. It can't be good for them interally at all.
Beav |
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Posts: 117
Location: champaign, illinois | I brought this up on another board during a similar discussion...
Just about the only way to get a NETTED muskie out of the net and into the boat for a photo is to pull it out vertically. Now the question arises, since vertical hold is bad, isn't it worse to take a fish from horizontally (neutrally bouyant) in the water to a rapid accelerated vertical (though brief) hold then into the horizontal supported hold you see in pics??? Sort of like cracking the whip to me...and I see it often on muskie (TV) shows and videos.
As I see it, if we as muskie fishermen are to go to the "next level", in the water photos (hand on tail release?) or fish taken out of water in a cradle for photos is the only way to go.
Or, am I missing something???
Jay
Lake Shelbyville Muskie Club www.shelbyvillemuskie.com
and
Illinois Muskie Tournament Trail www.illmuskie.com |
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| Good points Jay. However when taking the fish out of the net vertically the bottom portion of the fish is still in the water and as the fish comes completly out one only has to simply slide his/her hand down to support the mid section of the fish! |
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Posts: 148
Location: DES MOINES, IOWA | DJS,I agree, that,s how we lift them out.We don,t lift them out with one hand, and then go vertical.Right hand on jaw, and left under belly, and lift them out, take picture, and back in water.Better control that way, especially for some of the wild ones, who are ready to explode out of your hands, if you aren,t using both hands. |
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Posts: 259
Location: Alexandria, MN | I agree also, I have released most of my fish without ever taking them out of the water. The ones that do come up for a picture are lifted with two hands and are only snapped once, good or bad, I get one picture.
I do still see on TV and on the lake, where others will lift, and some still hold, them vertical. I guess this is going to take some time, just like CPR. I would say we have seen great things from CPR, but still haven't gotten it perfect. We are still having fish 'killed' even if they are not kept.
As the lakes down south start to open, and warmup, I am looking forward to the early reports, and my own early start to the season. Finally after 22 years, I will get to go Muskie fishing before June.
Steve |
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Posts: 1939
Location: Black Creek, WI | Since we don't know for certain what is safe for the fish, all we can go on is common sense. Everyone will have their own "limits" as to how much vertical suspension a fish can tolerate. All I can say is do what YOU feel is proper. Give the fish as much support as you can and enjoy the moment.
I got caught up in the extreme release hype promoted by Muskies Inc. back in the 80's and gotta say that it really helped achieve the acceptance of C&R but it eventually got too extreme. For example, I only carried a billy club for that "special" fish that I may keep and hand landed ALL other fish. 100% water release, no net, no PHOTOS, etc. etc. all to ensure the safety of a fish. Eventually I realized that these extreme release practices were taking away from my own personal enjoyment of the sport. Therefore, I had to either change my philosophy or quit fishing for muskies. Obviously, I'm still fishing for ski.
I feel that with the awesome nets available today, you can contain a fish well before you've played it to exhaustion. You can lift them from the large hoop at a relatively horizontal angle... or at least well enough to provide two handed support. In my opinion, a few clicks of the camera and a crude measurement is minimal stress if the fish is fresh. There is no "death hang" in this practice, however there may be times when pulling the fish from the net you are getting close. Is this really a problem? Geez, I sure hope not.
jlong |
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Posts: 366
| There are some very good points here. One thing I would add is little example of physics. Human beings can handle G-forces of up to 50 G's for very brief periods of time, but as little as 2 G's over an extended period of time, such as experienced in 500-mile indy race, can cause humans to blackout and stop blood flow to the brain. Although this is a very exaggerated comparison to what a muskie will experience while being handled by you or I, the same principles still apply. The average muskie can handle the brief forces of being lifted out of the net, but extended periods of being hung from their jaws, as in posing for photos, has the potential to be quite harmful. The specific results vary from individual fish to fish, just as not all of us have the physical make-up to be Jet-fighter pilots. So muskies are not made of jello, but they're not made of steel either. Just try to support them as best as possible when handling them.
Ryan Anderson
Edited by Fishwizard 3/3/2004 5:39 PM
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Posts: 2754
Location: Mauston, Wisconsin | Ok- Here's my spin. A Muskie is a high speed acceleration specialist. This means the forces on the internal organs are probably way more than a vertical hold would inflict. However. it's always better to play it safe. I think more damage is done by improper holding methods, dropped fish, etc. Every little thing you can do to ease the transistion from free swimming to caught in the net to back into the water can't hurt. It only makes sense.I see way to many photo's of fish that have been obviously dropped in the boat. These fish have a very poor chance of ever surviving. Maybe we need to back off on the ego photo thing, i.e., like most of the real pro's recommend, i.e., Larry Ramsell, Dick Pearson, Doug Johnson & Pete Mania, release it from the net.Why do you need a photo of a 44" fish if you have caught a 50" fish. Heck no real good reason other than an inflated ego. I've been guilty in the past- but not in the future.Al Warner"All Water is Zalt Water"http://www.zaltnad.com |
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Location: Athens, Ohio | Thanks for the input. I didn't know if there was any research or studies out there on this or not. I found a copy of Pike and Muskie Magazine from a couple years ago and many of the photos of both species were vertical holds. I plan on taking a lot of fish photos this year, and with due respect to Al, my fish-ego's been stomped on so hard so far that a few 44 shots will do me right. thanks again, m |
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