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Posts: 32792
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Shoeder’s RV & Marine Hodag Musky Challenge
Rule Changes for 2022
**After much research and discussion, the Shoeder’s RV & Marine Hodag Musky Challenge has made the decision to not allow the use of forward facing sonar (LiveScope or competitive brands) for the 2022 tournament. We will evaluate this rule change for upcoming years. We feel this addition to the rules for 2022 will allow for a more competitive tournament with fairness for the anglers in mind.
**Another administrative rule change for 2022 is when photographing the fish while holding it, each team must always hold the fish with the head facing the same way. (Each team may choose head facing left or right but they must all be submitted the same)
If you have any questions or concerns, please email [email protected] and [email protected] for more information.
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Facebook post. The reaction so far has been parallel with comments made here, with predictability. |
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Posts: 7010
Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | Honest question: for this tourney and the PMTT, does the Lowrance Ghost with the 360 feature count as "forward looking sonar"? |
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Posts: 53
| Displaying realtime images, technologies
including Garmin PanOptix LiveScope,
Humminbird MEGA Live, and Lowrance
Active Target exponentially improve
efficiency by removing much of the
guesswork. Moreover, missed
opportunities are less likely, as you not
only see what you're casting to, That is what it says online when you look up forward facing. I also am confused and concerned with it as I run a 360. They are vague in what they are saying. Is it live imaging products or is 360 roped into that also? |
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Posts: 359
Location: SW Ohio | Interesting that they specified the rule that the fish must be boarded the same way in all pics. That was a rule that PMTT had but wasn’t pressed lately. Most of the questions from the ER tournament we’re about the pictures and fishes direction on the word. |
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Posts: 39
| I've have been a stickler on the issue of "as resouce users do we tend to kill what we love" This observation came from a diferent notable source actually a long time ago. This notion can go far beyond musky fishing and is a good question to ponder as all resources have come under heavy pressure. With regard to tecknology, do you think the tecknology of yesterday (today for example) opens the door widely for the tecknology of the future? Got bloodied on this one awhile back but felt the need to restate the premise. Hope some serious thought occurs and we do the right thing. |
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Posts: 711
| Sorry I didn't mean to quote the poster above.
Whether you think the units are bad or you don't think they are an issue... I do think this is the right way to handle things ie: make a ruling before the event vs after.
Truthfully pretty hard to enforce without the threat of taking a lie detector test. Even then its pretty rare to hear about anyone actually having to take one.
Edited by bturg 8/3/2022 10:26 PM
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| bturg - 8/3/2022 10:22 PM
Sorry I didn't mean to quote the poster above.
Whether you think the units are bad or you don't think they are an issue... I do think this is the right way to handle things ie: make a ruling before the event vs after.
Or in the middle of the season. |
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Posts: 711
| North of 8 - 8/3/2022 10:23 PM
bturg - 8/3/2022 10:22 PM
Sorry I didn't mean to quote the poster above.
Whether you think the units are bad or you don't think they are an issue... I do think this is the right way to handle things ie: make a ruling before the event vs after.
Or in the middle of the season.
One could argue that point as well...I just find myself on the other side of it.  |
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Posts: 341
Location: Western U.P. | Regarding the second rule change above. Could someone explain the logic or reasoning to me why pics must be taken holding a fish with it's head in the same direction for this tourney? I've never heard of this, and am not seeing why this is apparently important. Just curious. Thanks.
Edited by Cedar 8/4/2022 12:36 AM
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Posts: 3518
Location: north central wisconsin | Cedar - 8/4/2022 12:34 AM
Regarding the second rule change above. Could someone explain the logic or reasoning to me why pics must be taken holding a fish with it's head in the same direction for this tourney? I've never heard of this, and am not seeing why this is apparently important. Just curious. Thanks.
While I am not certain, I'd believe this rule would mitigate potential re-registering of same fish by same team in same event.
Edited by Reef Hawg 8/4/2022 3:54 AM
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Posts: 359
Location: SW Ohio | Reef Hawg - 8/4/2022 4:52 AM
Cedar - 8/4/2022 12:34 AM
Regarding the second rule change above. Could someone explain the logic or reasoning to me why pics must be taken holding a fish with it's head in the same direction for this tourney? I've never heard of this, and am not seeing why this is apparently important. Just curious. Thanks.
While I am not certain, I'd believe this rule would mitigate potential re-registering of same fish by same team in same event.
That is the reason so the same fish can't be registered twice. Some fish will measure differently when flipped, and the markings may be different as well. With the minimal size difference of the winning team's catches, and lack of published pics, there were several comments eluding to the potential for the same fish being registered twice. This process had been part of the PMTT tournament registration meeting requirements up until this year. I'm sure it will be enforced going forward. |
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Posts: 341
Location: Western U.P. | OH Musky - 8/4/2022 4:10 AM Reef Hawg - 8/4/2022 4:52 AM Cedar - 8/4/2022 12:34 AM
Regarding the second rule change above. Could someone explain the logic or reasoning to me why pics must be taken holding a fish with it's head in the same direction for this tourney? I've never heard of this, and am not seeing why this is apparently important. Just curious. Thanks. While I am not certain, I'd believe this rule would mitigate potential re-registering of same fish by same team in same event. That is the reason so the same fish can't be registered twice. Some fish will measure differently when flipped, and the markings may be different as well. With the minimal size difference of the winning team's catches, and lack of published pics, there were several comments eluding to the potential for the same fish being registered twice. This process had been part of the PMTT tournament registration meeting requirements up until this year. I'm sure it will be enforced going forward.
Didn't think of it as a way to prevent cheating, but makes sense. Thanks guys. |
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Posts: 1184
| When it comes to fishing everybody cheats except you and I, and I'm not so sure about you! |
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Posts: 359
Location: SW Ohio | If people will cheat to win a $500 bass tournament, they sure as heck will to win, place or show in a $20,000 musky tournament. Like someone once said, if you’re not cheating, you’re not trying hard enough. Or something to that effect. Some people try harder than others. |
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Posts: 711
| The sad fact is that cheating happens at every level and species of tourney fishing. Now how do you enforce the ban on select electronics ?
Edited by bturg 8/4/2022 8:00 PM
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Posts: 20179
Location: oswego, il | It's an interesting situation and whatever the decisions.made there will be fallout. This will permeate to every tournament on every level. allow it and you can't compete without it. Can you compete with one or do you need several? What is the makeup of each tournament? Who do you alienate? It's a crossroad. |
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Posts: 711
| ToddM - 8/4/2022 8:12 PM
It's an interesting situation and whatever the decisions.made there will be fallout. This will permeate to every tournament on every level. allow it and you can't compete without it. Can you compete with one or do you need several? What is the makeup of each tournament? Who do you alienate? It's a crossroad.
I think most innovations have proven to have a shelf life and eventually it just becomes another tool in the bag. I believe this will eventually fade as it only offers a distinct advantage in certain situations (proven already on Eagle chain vs Cave Run).
Only certain personalities will take the time to fish that way and like on the high level bass tours events will won both new and old school as conditions dictate. For the non tourney people it will be a novelty for most and a serious tool for only a few. The fish will get conditioned to it as well...you can't have frontal sonar without frontal noise.
The other stuff is politics but out there for sure...IMO
Edited by bturg 8/4/2022 10:50 PM
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Posts: 1184
| These Muskies have gotten into all our soul's we think about all the time we buy more stuff then we need and the latest technology. I wonder what the unit cost is on these things. What are we really chasing? The fish? Life on the water? We are chasing these fish and the real big ones been chased and chased. I've fished with guides who have the know how all with all the tech. I like how Bob put it above "you can't have frontal sonar without frontal noise" A lot of big fish have been caught and released, with all out tools are we catching the largest fish in the system? Do they know the sound of our boats? the sound of our sonar? our voice?, know what a lures is? The best way to catch a lot of Muskies is not necessarily the way to catch the biggest of the big. What's really out there?
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| In a sign of the times, there is a story in the News section of Muskie First where a young walleye tournament angler and guide from Richfield WI talks about how he added on the water electronics education to his portfolio. He states that he is on pace to book 75 electronics how to trips this year. An example of a savvy young guy and the need for that kind of training. When I got my Ulterra with I-Pilot Link and a Mega SI/DI
Humminbird Gn4 last year, I told my kids that I had added more items to my file of equipment that is smarter than me. |
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Posts: 32792
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | bturg - 8/4/2022 10:48 PM
ToddM - 8/4/2022 8:12 PM
It's an interesting situation and whatever the decisions.made there will be fallout. This will permeate to every tournament on every level. allow it and you can't compete without it. Can you compete with one or do you need several? What is the makeup of each tournament? Who do you alienate? It's a crossroad.
I think most innovations have proven to have a shelf life and eventually it just becomes another tool in the bag. I believe this will eventually fade as it only offers a distinct advantage in certain situations (proven already on Eagle chain vs Cave Run ).
Only certain personalities will take the time to fish that way and like on the high level bass tours events will won both new and old school as conditions dictate. For the non tourney people it will be a novelty for most and a serious tool for only a few. The fish will get conditioned to it as well...you can't have frontal sonar without frontal noise.
The other stuff is politics but out there for sure...IMO
Post of the week! |
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Posts: 1759
Location: new richmond, wi. & isle, mn | chuckski - 8/5/2022 1:18 PM
The best way to catch a lot of Muskies is not necessarily the way to catch the biggest of the big. What's really out there?
Just a note* hmmmm
The same guy that flipped the pmtt on its head holds the new MN state record. |
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Posts: 711
| chuckski - 8/5/2022 1:18 PM
These Muskies have gotten into all our soul's we think about all the time we buy more stuff then we need and the latest technology. I wonder what the unit cost is on these things. What are we really chasing? The fish? Life on the water? We are chasing these fish and the real big ones been chased and chased. I've fished with guides who have the know how all with all the tech. I like how Bob put it above "you can't have frontal sonar without frontal noise" A lot of big fish have been caught and released, with all out tools are we catching the largest fish in the system? Do they know the sound of our boats? the sound of our sonar? our voice?, know what a lures is? The best way to catch a lot of Muskies is not necessarily the way to catch the biggest of the big. What's really out there?
I think sound on pressured fish is a big deal. My theory is any sound they hear will either move them up or down on the aggressive part of their behavior. So less negative noise makes them more aggressive - while MORE sounds perceived as negative makes them less. WE LIKE aggressive behavior it makes them easier to catch ! |
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Posts: 711
| jchiggins - 8/5/2022 9:03 PM
chuckski - 8/5/2022 1:18 PM
The best way to catch a lot of Muskies is not necessarily the way to catch the biggest of the big. What's really out there?
Just a note* hmmmm
The same guy that flipped the pmtt on its head holds the new MN state record.
I think it has shown to be super effective at either one depending on the body of water/time or year as well as the focused objective of numbers versus super fish.
It also shows the versatility of the two anglers involved as well, they obviously know how to reach to chosen objective. Don't know either one but the proof is right in front of you. They obviously have talent ,drive and determination because that's what it takes to do what they are doing. It's not easy to do and they already have, hat's off to them I say. |
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Posts: 1759
Location: new richmond, wi. & isle, mn | bturg - 8/5/2022 9:39 PM
jchiggins - 8/5/2022 9:03 PM
chuckski - 8/5/2022 1:18 PM
The best way to catch a lot of Muskies is not necessarily the way to catch the biggest of the big. What's really out there?
Just a note* hmmmm
The same guy that flipped the pmtt on its head holds the new MN state record.
I think it has shown to be super effective at either one depending on the body of water/time or year as well as the focused objective of numbers versus super fish.
It also shows the versatility of the two anglers involved as well, they obviously know how to reach to chosen objective. Don't know either one but the proof is right in front of you. They obviously have talent ,drive and determination because that's what it takes to do what they are doing. It's not easy to do and they already have, hat's off to them I say.
and resources if they didn't have unbridled passion in what they are doing.
A new chapter begins...... And like yourself, I've seen quite a few chapters of this obsession.
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Posts: 1184
| It's common knowledge that Miles Lacs is the place to be in November for a giants a couple years ago a guy got two 50 pounders in a day. A few years before that Hamernick, Ronnestrand, and Tauchen all had 50 pounders in there boat on the same day and it was opening to Deer season and everyone else was hunting. The point i'm trying to make is that for the last fifty years (and dad longer) we come up from out west and get a week or two to fish and the best we've done is pound class release. We like fishing for the big ones. But we never been the guys you oh 40 here 50 pounder there (you know the guys in camp talking fish who never seen a 30 incher) we did see a fish in the big waters that would go 58" and year later a 58 1/2" was caught out of season by a Walleye in 38 feet of water within a fish like that home range. Before I was born my dad would see bigger fish in the smaller sized lakes in Wisconsin. Are these fish there? Let's face it, they watered down the gene pool, they may get hit by a spear or a boat, with catch and release some trophy waters have turned into numbers waters.
Large fish (Muskies) are rare in smaller waters but I think if you look and fish the right lakes and places in the lake and be stealthy you can get a giant. And if you have the money for a big boat and electronics that helps. I've talked to some guides over the years and off the cuff they talk of some giants in lakes they should not be in. And if you watched the film "Hooked" with Dick Sleight and he talks of Banana Lake and seeing world records. A nameless friend and famous guide whispered in my ear told me the lake and if you look at it, it's a lake my dad would call "a frog pond" |
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Posts: 57
| A big boat and fancy electronics????? If my memory serves me Tom Gelb caught two giants from a small row troller powered by ash sails(oars) . The new electronics have narrowed the gap between experienced and novice’s in short order , there’s no argument there . The question becomes do you loose intuition when you rely on it to much ? Time will tell , but ask a twenty something which direction east is sometime….. I kid , kind of . |
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Posts: 1184
| Tom got a lot of press out of two giants but he released a third fish twice two years a part that was almost as big plus several trophies. I've posted that there "sometimes the best way to catch a giant is doing something different" Iwas thinking of Tom Gelb but also if anybody read the boat "In Pursuit Of Giant Bass" by the late Bill Murphy. Biil Murphy was Southern Califorian Bass fishermen who caught lots of teen sized (pounds) Bass in high pressured water in the lake around San Diego CA.
(out of a 16 foot row boat) I have aging mom, covid, 5 dollar gallon gas, Limited income because forced early retirement due to a head injury. With some luck get myself back on the water, I've bought some things to try and modified some things and have lots of off beat thing to try all in the search a giant Muskie living in pressured water. My idea of fun! |
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