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| Message Subject: What should the PMTT do about Snipping | |||
Junkman |
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Posts: 1220 | Maybe off topic (?) but the practice of using “friends” and even asking a guy in a bait shop is a violation in some fishing circuits as is pre-fishing beyond a strict few days prior. The sport evolves, the rules evolves. The PGA recently penalized a competitor for merely drawing dots on his club with white-out! They will figure this out. | ||
| Ogandrews |
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Posts: 205 Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota | I picked up a livescope this spring and have been using it all season. I think that people that haven’t used one have a skewed perception of how effective they are. In the part of the year where the open water bite is really going strong than it is very effective, although if the fish are right by the surface like they are sometimes in Minnesota than side imaging is still better for locating them. The closer those fish get to cover/shallow water the less effective it gets. You can still find fish that are tucked up against a reef but the shallower it is and the tighter the fish is to the rocks the less you can see. Same with weeds, once that fish gets in the weeds than your livescope isn’t doing much of anything besides showing you what the weeds look like. Livescope is incredibly effective in a open water scenario but for the rest of the year where most of those fish are shallow and in some sort of cover than it really loses it’s effectiveness. Live imaging isn’t going anywhere so you might as well learn to use it, but I don’t think in any way it is as much of an unfair advantage most of the year as people think it is. | ||
| mikie |
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Location: Athens, Ohio | I'll share an experience me and Mauser had on Stonewall Jackson Lake. We were there fishing during the Hot Water mortality study, and came upon one of the project boats. One guy was at the bow with an antenna-looking device, another with a rod and reel and a rubber jigging bait. Muskies were shocked up and implanted with sensors that the project had equipment to detect., and the object was to catch one in hot conditions and see how it survives. The guy with the antenna was right on top of the fish and the jigger was working all around it trying to get it to bite. We watched maybe five or ten minutes while we were across the channel and never saw the rod bend. Like my buddy Tony says, "I can take you to the fish but I can't make you catch them!" m | ||
| North of 8 |
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Junkman - 7/16/2022 6:54 AM Maybe off topic (?) but the practice of using “friends” and even asking a guy in a bait shop is a violation in some fishing circuits as is pre-fishing beyond a strict few days prior. The sport evolves, the rules evolves. The PGA recently penalized a competitor for merely drawing dots on his club with white-out! They will figure this out. I saw the same story about the white out and it is a good example of a professional circuit making the rules and that is what competitors have to follow. | |||
| sworrall |
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Posts: 32792 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | The Professional Walleye Tour 3rd 2022 event on Green Bay wrapped up yesterday. Multiple anglers mentioned seeing tons of big walleyes on forward-looking sonar, and not being able to get enough of them or the right ones to hit. No one complained from what I have seen. First place is worth over 100 grand. From the winner: In gin clear water, Hjelm’s fish were suspended 2 to 10 feet off the bottom in water 18 to 24 feet deep. At times, he would slide up as shallow as 14 feet. “I wasn’t making a cast unless I saw a fish. I had my head down on my Lowrance ActiveTarget the whole time. You knew you were casting on or around fish. I never really understood it until I fished Green Bay, but these walleyes never stop moving. They are constantly on the swim, and you can just watch them come and go on the graph. You’ll get super excited, and then they’ll completely vanish.” Hjelm threw a variety of glide baits in natural colors to catch his fish. He had trolling gear with him, but never caught one trolling in the tournament. | ||
| CincySkeez |
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Posts: 591 Location: Duluth | If Im being totally honest, and having scoped myself I just think its lame. I think its lame to,stare at a screen driving around for fish. I think its lame that big names promote fishing that way. Musky guys used to be bad but if it turns into a bunch of dudes making tracks staring at,screens then I'm not sure the "future" of musky fishing is for me. Likely just trout fish more and laugh at all the hoosiers and their fancy gear. | ||
| North of 8 |
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sworrall - 7/16/2022 10:28 AM The Professional Walleye Tour 3rd 2022 event on Green Bay wrapped up yesterday. Multiple anglers mentioned seeing tons of big walleyes on forward-looking sonar, and not being able to get enough of them or the right ones to hit. No one complained from what I have seen. First place is worth over 100 grand. From the winner: In gin clear water, Hjelm’s fish were suspended 2 to 10 feet off the bottom in water 18 to 24 feet deep. At times, he would slide up as shallow as 14 feet. “I wasn’t making a cast unless I saw a fish. I had my head down on my Lowrance ActiveTarget the whole time. You knew you were casting on or around fish. I never really understood it until I fished Green Bay, but these walleyes never stop moving. They are constantly on the swim, and you can just watch them come and go on the graph. You’ll get super excited, and then they’ll completely vanish.” Hjelm threw a variety of glide baits in natural colors to catch his fish. He had trolling gear with him, but never caught one trolling in the tournament. Another competitor mentioned that there were lots of walleye, but also huge amounts of bait fish, which made getting walleyes to hit their baits very difficult, | |||
| Angling Oracle |
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Posts: 309 Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | sworrall - 7/16/2022 10:28 AM The Professional Walleye Tour 3rd 2022 event on Green Bay wrapped up yesterday. Multiple anglers mentioned seeing tons of big walleyes on forward-looking sonar, and not being able to get enough of them or the right ones to hit. No one complained from what I have seen. First place is worth over 100 grand. From the winner: In gin clear water, Hjelm’s fish were suspended 2 to 10 feet off the bottom in water 18 to 24 feet deep. At times, he would slide up as shallow as 14 feet. “I wasn’t making a cast unless I saw a fish. I had my head down on my Lowrance ActiveTarget the whole time. You knew you were casting on or around fish. I never really understood it until I fished Green Bay, but these walleyes never stop moving. They are constantly on the swim, and you can just watch them come and go on the graph. You’ll get super excited, and then they’ll completely vanish.” Hjelm threw a variety of glide baits in natural colors to catch his fish. He had trolling gear with him, but never caught one trolling in the tournament. I really don't get your arguments. These guys are going to complain about their sponsors? There are billions of walleye in North America, with millions being harvested on the commercial, recreational and subsistence fisheries. I think we harvest well over 5 millions pounds on Lake Winnipeg here alone. On the other hand Muskies are an extremely low density predator with a tiny natural distribution and a reproductive biology/strategy that is easily prone to failure. Driving around with sonar until you find musky is akin to using Roboducks for mallards, used electronic calls on geese or turkeys, and receiving cell phone pics of a buck walking by your trail cam - not fair chase. It is completely irrelevant as far as competitive between people - it is not fishing, it is as close to catching as you can come; in fact I don't think there is any other live sampling technique that would work better - probably more effective than electroshocking or netting. There is now target lock (holds your transducer on structure), next it will be fish lock, fish ID, bottom emulation, species ID, bait tracker, yadda, yadda, yadda. Geez, we probably will have underwater fish trail cams that will send you an email when the big musky you are chasing shows - you can already get little submersibles now to have a look see. These anecdotes of "can't get them to bite thing," is an interesting but really baseless argument. Carp are wary - but people that are really good at carp fishing know how to get them to bite in any conditions. Musky are really "dumb" in comparison in the wary of biting department - they will bite, and as things go with this social media age someone is going to want to get a few extra hits or whatever and reveal ways to get "finicky" musky to bite. The excuses for the technologies have the ring of addiction - in this case technology addiction. I would say the "antis" here are not old timers or anti-technology, or can't afford it, or whatever. (I own a GN4 MSI+) They love muskies and musky fishing and don't like where this is going. It is NOT good for muskies and it doesn't make musky fishing more rewarding- it is a prelude to something worse. This old Rapala movie has some surprisingly good editing and musky fighting segments, maybe give some context as to what musky fishing (hunting) is supposed to be - a difficult quest: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQnbaTFwJ10 Edited by Angling Oracle 7/16/2022 1:00 PM | ||
| sworrall |
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Posts: 32792 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Angling Oracle - 7/16/2022 12:55 PM sworrall - 7/16/2022 10:28 AM The Professional Walleye Tour 3rd 2022 event on Green Bay wrapped up yesterday. Multiple anglers mentioned seeing tons of big walleyes on forward-looking sonar, and not being able to get enough of them or the right ones to hit. No one complained from what I have seen. First place is worth over 100 grand. From the winner: In gin clear water, Hjelm’s fish were suspended 2 to 10 feet off the bottom in water 18 to 24 feet deep. At times, he would slide up as shallow as 14 feet. “I wasn’t making a cast unless I saw a fish. I had my head down on my Lowrance ActiveTarget the whole time. You knew you were casting on or around fish. I never really understood it until I fished Green Bay, but these walleyes never stop moving. They are constantly on the swim, and you can just watch them come and go on the graph. You’ll get super excited, and then they’ll completely vanish.” Hjelm threw a variety of glide baits in natural colors to catch his fish. He had trolling gear with him, but never caught one trolling in the tournament. I really don't get your arguments. These guys are going to complain about their sponsors? There are billions of walleye in North America, with millions being harvested on the commercial, recreational and subsistence fisheries. I think we harvest well over 5 millions pounds on Lake Winnipeg here alone. On the other hand Muskies are an extremely low density predator with a tiny natural distribution and a reproductive biology/strategy that is easily prone to failure. Driving around with sonar until you find musky is akin to using Roboducks for mallards, used electronic calls on geese or turkeys, and receiving cell phone pics of a buck walking by your trail cam - not fair chase. It is completely irrelevant as far as competitive between people - it is not fishing, it is as close to catching as you can come; in fact I don't think there is any other live sampling technique that would work better - probably more effective than electroshocking or netting. There is now target lock (holds your transducer on structure), next it will be fish lock, fish ID, bottom emulation, species ID, bait tracker, yadda, yadda, yadda. Geez, we probably will have underwater fish trail cams that will send you an email when the big musky you are chasing shows - you can already get little submersibles now to have a look see. These anecdotes of "can't get them to bite thing," is an interesting but really baseless argument. Carp are wary - but people that are really good at carp fishing know how to get them to bite in any conditions. Musky are really "dumb" in comparison in the wary of biting department - they will bite, and as things go with this social media age someone is going to want to get a few extra hits or whatever and reveal ways to get "finicky" musky to bite. The excuses for the technologies have the ring of addiction - in this case technology addiction. I would say the "antis" here are not old timers or anti-technology, or can't afford it, or whatever. (I own a GN4 MSI+) They love muskies and musky fishing and don't like where this is going. It is NOT good for muskies and it doesn't make musky fishing more rewarding- it is a prelude to something worse. This old Rapala movie has some surprisingly good editing and musky fighting segments, maybe give some context as to what musky fishing (hunting) is supposed to be - a difficult quest: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQnbaTFwJ10 Complete miss. I was pointing out the very widespread use of the tech in that event, the discussion that some of the anglers had a rough time getting the right fish to hit (it wasn't baseless to those anglers), etc. and the fact no one was complaining about it during a very competitive event that paid out about a quarter million dollars and the fact the winner talked about how it was used. I was not comparing walleyes to muskies, I was comparing tournament angler behavior. 'These guys are going to complain about their sponsors?' Some PMTT anglers did. Observations, not arguments. | ||
| chuckski |
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Posts: 1184 | Having proper tackle and boat control trumps everything. I've rented boats that have bow mount trolling motor and 24 or 36 volt battery system and point bow into the wind and go against the grain. Or take the free Resort row boat with oars and rent a outboard then float right down the middle of the lake looking for open water fish or deep reefs or crawl up in the slop where the big boats don't go! Me the Eagle and the Loon and if I'm lucky I hear a Pileated Woodpecker. Live is good on the water or in the woods. | ||
| Angling Oracle |
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Posts: 309 Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | sworrall - 7/16/2022 5:37 PM Complete miss. I was pointing out the very widespread use of the tech in that event, the discussion that some of the anglers had a rough time getting the right fish to hit (it wasn't baseless to those anglers), etc. and the fact no one was complaining about it during a very competitive event that paid out about a quarter million dollars and the fact the winner talked about how it was used. I was not comparing walleyes to muskies, I was comparing tournament angler behavior. 'These guys are going to complain about their sponsors?' Some PMTT anglers did. Observations, not arguments. I don't know if I did miss it. Perhaps I did take liberties with your observation to try and make my point. The way I read it is this: the walleye tournament winner demonstrated the effectiveness of live imaging. Apparently this fellow has not fished walleye that exhibit this pattern of behaviour and was sort of taken aback by it, but he adapted, persisted and caught enough fish to win - a pattern is identical to Lake Winnipeg FYI - except even shallower with the turbid water. Lake Winnipeg you need to have some local knowledge as to how to trigger the bite of the big one that will come through - likely he found something that worked for him that others didn't. Live imaging helped him get to those observations and conclusions much more quickly than say 2D alone. Live imaging is very useful - but you still have to put the other stuff together. Walleye guys didn't whine about live imaging. Not sure why they would as they probably all have one version or other - it is just another tool with the other tools we already mentioned. I don't like the walleye tourneys here as they disrupt the ability of others to access the walleye waters we fish, but they unlikely they have an appreciable effect on the walleye fishery, and neither does live imaging (and other high frequency sonar) on the quality of the walleye fishery. Outside of the tournament aspect of this (ie fairness to anglers), I do not think live imaging and the improvements in software to come regarding high frequency sonar is going to be a benefit to musky fisheries - on the contrary, it will lead to a deterioration in the quality of fisheries and undermine what the essence of what musky fishing is. My opinion. I could be wrong. Edited by Angling Oracle 7/16/2022 7:35 PM | ||
| sworrall |
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Posts: 32792 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Outside of the tournament aspect of this (ie fairness to anglers), I do not think live imaging and the improvements in software to come regarding high-frequency sonar is going to be a benefit to musky fisheries - on the contrary, it will lead to a deterioration in the quality of fisheries and undermine what the essence of what musky fishing is. My opinion. I could be wrong. Actually, I don't think you are entirely wrong. Muskie fishing to me is the hunt, not just the catch. I won't be staring at a screen trying to get one to hit anytime soon. | ||
| happy hooker |
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Posts: 3136 | I just wish they'd make a reel that doesn't backlash  | ||
| mikie |
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Location: Athens, Ohio | I'm still waiting for the magic one-cast = one -fish bait, too. m | ||
| kap |
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Posts: 536 Location: deephaven mn | Steve makes the point that Livescope technology is being used in Walleye and Bass tournaments and it is accepted. It helps you located fish but you still have to make them bite. I have located several muskies with live scope. Most don't react to lures. Ty Sennett was mentioned. He admitted to using Livescope in a tournament he won last year, locating fish outside the deep weed edge. Yes snaging is against the rules. The only way PMTT could inforce this is to have you remove the device before fishing the tournament. Big deal and will turn anglers away. Side Imaging would have to be banned as well as Livescope is just advanced Side imagining | ||
| dbach17 |
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Posts: 82 Location: Des Plaines, IL | I think the "fairness" argument is a really tough one to make when you have a variety of anglers fishing the musky events. Not everyone is able to use the highest quality rod blanks or reels, and not everyone can afford a $100K boat to get to spots faster, drift slower, etc. Unless everyone is going to be given a 12 foot john boat with oars, a 9.9, and an anchor, all the same rods, and all the same baits, the equipment that people have will be varied, and that's before electronics. Personally, I spent less on the boat and more on the electronics because I only get to fish 20-30 days a year. For me, I want to be able to maximize that time and not feel lost out there casting at nothing. Seems like the cost variation amongst electronics is similar to that of a $30K boat vs. the $100K boat, people make choices. As for mortality rates of fish and the effect of live sonar, I'm eager to see the data over the coming years. Does anyone have any studies looking at mortality pre-side imaging and post-side imaging? No one has to worry about me and my live sonar, I practice the safest musky release there is: not catching them. | ||
| ARmuskyaddict |
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Posts: 2004 | Where's the argument that jigging deep fish is harmful? From my understanding, the livescopers are seeing most fish suspended 10 ft or above. But my limited knowledge is regarding Vermilion. I know when I troll open water, the deepest bait is about 8-10 ft down. | ||
| CincySkeez |
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Posts: 591 Location: Duluth | dbach17 - 7/18/2022 9:00 AM Personally, I spent less on the boat and more on the electronics because I only get to fish 20-30 days a year. For me, I want to be able to maximize that time and not feel lost out there casting at nothing. Seems like the cost variation amongst electronics is similar to that of a $30K boat vs. the $100K boat, people make choices. Yea, we definitely got into the sport for different reasons. I guess to sound less abrasive, the chase and learning is the sport. "casting around in no mans land" is part of learning and part of what makes an agler actually key in on the conditions....to develop long lasting patterns that will put fish in the net even if your gimball mounted transducer arm all of a sudden decides its doesnt want to work or whatever. Sidescan isn't even in the same conversation as Livescope. Edited by CincySkeez 7/18/2022 11:41 AM | ||
| vegas492 |
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Posts: 1023 | I heard from a bass pro who fishes tournaments everywhere that bass are starting to act differently when pinged with live sonar. Turns them off and they don't eat. Wonder if this will happen to muskies over time. I found that when I upgraded to the bigger fancier Humminbirds, my sucker musky catch went down. So I shut off the sonar and just started running my map, knowing full well what the depth was and that my baits were fine. And I started catching more muskies. Maybe they could hear or feel that sonar hit and it was keeping them from eating. Maybe I was just fishing better days without the sonar. Who knows. But it will be interesting to follow. BTW...I was in a boat and used Live Sonar while smallie fishing this weekend. Probably got 4 smallies to eat all day that I saw on the unit (not my boat). Compared to about 100 that I saw. I found myself hating that I was staring at the screen, then loving it when a fish actually hit. Whether you are for it, or against it, the fact is, that technology works really well. | ||
| chuckski |
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Posts: 1184 | Hi! I'm new to Muskie fishing I have a old Thompson or Rhinelander 14 foot guide boat it's made of wood it leaks (it was in perfect shape before my cousin thru a M 80 in it on 4th of July) so I carry a coffee can to bail it out every once in a while. I don't have a motor or green box (one of those fish finders) I fish with a glass five and one half foot rod it's nice and stiff like a pool cue! I use my grandma's Ambaasadeur 5000 and it has black Dacron line I think 27 pound test not sure how long it's been on the reel. My landing net is 22"X 36" and I have a gaff and a club. For lures I have Bobbie, Suick (I wish there was a way to add weight) Dardevel, Johnson's Silver Minnow, Globe, Cisco Kid Topper, Burmek Top Water, couple Pikie Minnows , Mepps Musky Killers. (out of the three blade colors Silver, Gold, and Black) what do you like best? What kind of leaders do you guy's use? Any good Muskie books and do my oar's scare the fish? Chuck July 1976 | ||
| TCESOX |
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Posts: 1184 | vegas492 - 7/18/2022 11:56 AM I heard from a bass pro who fishes tournaments everywhere that bass are starting to act differently when pinged with live sonar. Turns them off and they don't eat. Wonder if this will happen to muskies over time. I found that when I upgraded to the bigger fancier Humminbirds, my sucker musky catch went down. So I shut off the sonar and just started running my map, knowing full well what the depth was and that my baits were fine. And I started catching more muskies. Maybe they could hear or feel that sonar hit and it was keeping them from eating. Maybe I was just fishing better days without the sonar. Who knows. But it will be interesting to follow. BTW...I was in a boat and used Live Sonar while smallie fishing this weekend. Probably got 4 smallies to eat all day that I saw on the unit (not my boat). Compared to about 100 that I saw. I found myself hating that I was staring at the screen, then loving it when a fish actually hit. Whether you are for it, or against it, the fact is, that technology works really well. There are walleye ice guides on Green Bay, who only use sonar when targeting eaters. They say when they are targeting trophies for picture taking, that the true giants, take off when the sonar goes on. Edited by TCESOX 7/18/2022 5:47 PM | ||
| mm3 |
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Posts: 371 Location: Northern Illinois | chuckski - 7/18/2022 12:09 PM Hi! I'm new to Muskie fishing I have a old Thompson or Rhinelander 14 foot guide boat it's made of wood it leaks (it was in perfect shape before my cousin thru a M 80 in it on 4th of July) so I carry a coffee can to bail it out every once in a while. I don't have a motor or green box (one of those fish finders) I fish with a glass five and one half foot rod it's nice and stiff like a pool cue! I use my grandma's Ambaasadeur 5000 and it has black Dacron line I think 27 pound test not sure how long it's been on the reel. My landing net is 22"X 36" and I have a gaff and a club. For lures I have Bobbie, Suick (I wish there was a way to add weight) Dardevel, Johnson's Silver Minnow, Globe, Cisco Kid Topper, Burmek Top Water, couple Pikie Minnows , Mepps Musky Killers. (out of the three blade colors Silver, Gold, and Black) what do you like best? What kind of leaders do you guy's use? Any good Muskie books and do my oar's scare the fish? Chuck July 1976 Sounds like more fun than looking at a screen. Got to admit though, a motor would be nice. And the hole (pun intended) leak thing... | ||
| 7.62xJay |
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Posts: 480 Location: NW WI | Forgive me it's been a long time, but somewhere online you might find an nteresting article written by someone credible talking about the affects of sonar and smallmouth fishing, i believe in summary it stateted that sonar use decreased hit %. I recall the study taking place in either central or Southern U.S. and my Google search was something about "night time fishing smallmouth". If no one here finds it, I'll dig for it and post it a new thread whenever I have more time. | ||
| sworrall |
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Posts: 32792 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | So the fifth trip out with the new Mega Live after crappies yesterday. Located and went to a crib with at least 50 crappies festooning the top. Caught 3 on that one and spent too much time trying to figure it out before moving to a couple more and doing better. | ||
| North of 8 |
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sworrall - 7/24/2022 4:23 PM So the fifth trip out with the new Mega Live after crappies yesterday. Located and went to a crib with at least 50 crappies festooning the top. Caught 3 on that one and spent too much time trying to figure it out before moving to a couple more and doing better. Steve saw the story about the Mega Live Target lock in the News section here and also something from Humminbird. In both stories the unit was shown mounted on an Ultrex. Could not find whether it will also work on an Ulterra. Not looking to get this year but it would solve a problem I have now with my Mega SI in that when you are in wind or current that requires frequent changes to the trolling motor direction, also changes the SI. | |||
| happy hooker |
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Posts: 3136 | If they spent all this money on electronics alot more then the others,,in a couple years there will be something new and better,,spend that money all over again,,will winnings keep up with that? Edited by happy hooker 7/24/2022 8:03 PM | ||
| sworrall |
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Posts: 32792 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | North of 8 - 7/24/2022 6:54 PM sworrall - 7/24/2022 4:23 PM So the fifth trip out with the new Mega Live after crappies yesterday. Located and went to a crib with at least 50 crappies festooning the top. Caught 3 on that one and spent too much time trying to figure it out before moving to a couple more and doing better. Steve saw the story about the Mega Live Target lock in the News section here and also something from Humminbird. In both stories the unit was shown mounted on an Ultrex. Could not find whether it will also work on an Ulterra. Not looking to get this year but it would solve a problem I have now with my Mega SI in that when you are in wind or current that requires frequent changes to the trolling motor direction, also changes the SI. I have an Ultrex. The Mega Live mounts on the shaft under the Mega 360. | ||
| Landry |
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Posts: 1023 | I have livescope. It is terrific for finding iron water fish and for jigging. It is a huge advantage there. It has its time and place of a person fishes ethically and truly cares about the health of a fish or fishery. | ||
| OH Musky |
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Posts: 359 Location: SW Ohio | PMTT came out with an answer today. They are banning Live Scope and all other forward looking sonar for Leech and the championship. So that puts the “what will they do” to rest. They’re also offering refunds to those who use it and want to cancel Leech. My vote was to leave it alone for the rest of the year. No, I don’t have live scope or any other right now. But teams have used it for two tournaments already so changing it now made no sense to me. C’est la vie. My fishing partner and I had already dropped from Leech due to economic and work related issues prior to the outcome of “the vote”. Diesel at $6+ a gal was one big reason. $1200 for fuel alone is a bit steep for us. But we’ll keep our options open going into next year. Who knows…maybe we’ll all be “virtual fishing” with live scope helmets and such. Like fighter pilots but with slime dispensers built in. ;-). Edited by OH Musky 7/26/2022 4:08 PM | ||
| North of 8 |
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| Little surprised that was their decision. Must have been the way the majority of their participants voted. Destroyed the lower unit on my motor hitting a submerged log in an area I have traveled hundreds of times across the lake from my house. While at the dealer, who is a stocking Garmin dealer, I asked if he had a lot of sales of live scope following the PMTT event in Eagle River, a few miles south of him. He just laughed and said, 'don't know about sales but I sure had a lot of calls in the week following'. | |||
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