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Posts: 489
Location: NW WI | sworrall - 7/5/2022 5:09 PM
BNelson - 7/5/2022 10:55 AM
I agree with JDSplasher and others who actually like the challenge of 'the hunt'. Is driving around with Livescope even fishing? I'd say no. it is not. to me it is like driving around at night with a spotlight and then shooting a deer, or that is the closest analogy I could come up with. Yes, they still have to bite, I get it. but it is not what musky fishing is all about .. I mean really where is the challenge or skill in that? I won't necesarily knock guys for doing it, but are there catches less impressive? I'd say they are... I guess we know how the MN state record was caught last fall....
also, I think those who think that technology won't hurt fisheries are dead wrong. limits will have to be altered and imo more muskies will have to be stocked. Muskies use to be able to 'hide' somewhat in open water, that is no more. Delayed mortality is obviously a real thing well if more and more fish are getting caught by the use of that crap more will die, it's simple math... Now guys can and DO sit on top of 50 inchers 20 feet down jigging them until they bite, yes that is how some are getting caught. Big picture I honestly wish that technology was never invented. It will change the sport and not for the good. Period.
The reality is not many folks care what you or I think except those who know you and I (for better or worse ). The tech is out there, and anglers across the board will use it. If you think the noise is loud in competitive muskie angling, you should have followed competitive crappie fishing when the Livscope hit. It was, according to general consensus, the end of competitive crappie angling as we know it, yet here we are a couple of seasons in and it's hardly a mention anymore.
I get it there's a big difference between conservation for crappies and muskies, but the simple fact is we'll ALL have to deal with it. Will I sharp-shoot muskies? Nope, boring. Then again, I don't fish tournaments, either.
Our fisheries management will undoubtedly change if the predictions in your post come to pass, adjusting just like they have to increasing pressure over the last 50 years.
Amen, I don't fish tourneys nor use the tech. But I'm also able to understand those that do. If you wanna beat em in that class, your going to have to join em. Musky fishing isn't really musky fishing in tournaments, it's musky hunting, and rightfully so. You best bet those that can afford every advantage will do so. As far as chasing deep open water pelagic fish go.... um, there's 2 major bait companies formed by that tactic before livescope came to market. Ripping big girls from the 20-30'ft mark isn't new. It's definitely easier now yes, and unfortunately in one case/yet fortunately in another-the reality is it'll take years of opinions and data to develop a consensus on the matter. I think most of us share the same opinion on a recreational level. But on a tourney level, that's for them to decide.Players don't make the calls;MLB and NFL can attest to that for sure. |
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Location: oswego, il | I seen a pic posted on FB of the winning boat it had a 32" screen that had all the graph outputs networked to. |
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Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | BNelson - 7/5/2022 10:55 AM
Big picture I honestly wish that technology was never invented. It will change the sport and not for the good. Period.
And it is only going to get even more user friendly and widely available with the results pushed on YT or wherever. Most tournaments are not really competitions, they are live billboards for products.
I personally prefer to see the giant "blondies" slowly follow out of the shallows - clearly pelagic fish compared to their green smaller striped cousins. But people are going to quickly sort out how to target these fish out where they feed and put the hurt on them. Some folks really just want a glory pic and/or numbers - it is no different than the stages of a hunter: starting want numbers => then trophies => then being out enjoying nature with friends. Some never evolve. Do not believe that this will self regulate because muskie fishers are all cut of the same cloth; they are not and I'm sure everyone here has to stories to make my point.
Stakeholders ultimately direct what managers are to do. Your Muskies Inc down there and Muskies Canada up here need to have some sort of stance. I don't know that is, perhaps needs to be driven by some research and user pollling.
Edited by Angling Oracle 7/6/2022 10:05 AM
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Angling Oracle - 7/6/2022 10:04 AM
BNelson - 7/5/2022 10:55 AM
Big picture I honestly wish that technology was never invented. It will change the sport and not for the good. Period.
And it is only going to get even more user friendly and widely available with the results pushed on YT or wherever. Most tournaments are not really competitions, they are live billboards for products.
I personally prefer to see the giant "blondies" slowly follow out of the shallows - clearly pelagic fish compared to their green smaller striped cousins. But people are going to quickly sort out how to target these fish out where they feed and put the hurt on them. Some folks really just want a glory pic and/or numbers - it is no different than the stages of a hunter: starting want numbers => then trophies => then being out enjoying nature with friends. Some never evolve. Do not believe that this will self regulate because muskie fishers are all cut of the same cloth; they are not and I'm sure everyone here has to stories to make my point.
Stakeholders ultimately direct what managers are to do. Your Muskies Inc down there and Muskies Canada up here need to have some sort of stance. I don't know that is, perhaps needs to be driven by some research and user pollling.
[/QUOTE
That has been a topic of conversation during a couple of Muskies Inc executive committee meetings this year. I was just re-elected for another term, so I'll bring it up again. |
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Posts: 357
| i still have hand drawn maps of reefs on the south side of LOTW...when the GPS maps came out nobody had to do the leg work anymore, you could literally drive to the best spots. walleye fishing was going to be decimated. but it wasn't. and there is extreme pressure on spots 12 months of the year. fish somehow seem to adapt.
livescope was looking to dominate tournament bass fishing. and as it is a great tool guys are in the top 10 AOY who barely use electronics at all. there was some interesting banter recently some pros were using livescope to snag fish. if anything it seems like it has spread anglers out creating more opportunities for guys not using it odd as that sounds.
new technology is a slippery slope for sure. but there is going to be a next thing that make live imaging a thing of the past |
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Location: Chisholm, MN | RJ_692 - 7/7/2022 7:31 AM
i still have hand drawn maps of reefs on the south side of LOTW...when the GPS maps came out nobody had to do the leg work anymore, you could literally drive to the best spots. walleye fishing was going to be decimated. but it wasn't. and there is extreme pressure on spots 12 months of the year. fish somehow seem to adapt.
livescope was looking to dominate tournament bass fishing. and as it is a great tool guys are in the top 10 AOY who barely use electronics at all. there was some interesting banter recently some pros were using livescope to snag fish. if anything it seems like it has spread anglers out creating more opportunities for guys not using it odd as that sounds.
new technology is a slippery slope for sure. but there is going to be a next thing that make live imaging a thing of the past
I would say walleye and sauger fishing on Lake of the Woods is far worse than it used to be. Not entirely due to maps but many other human factors. |
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Posts: 359
Location: SW Ohio | Tim, at PMTT, sent out an email to all trail team members asking their vote with three selections on the live scope debacle. He will follow the top vote in making yet another change to this year's rules. Not sure I'm going to vote as none of the three choices are what I would consider a good decision. I also can't tell if this will be a permanent decision or only for the remainder of the year. We're not allowed to voice any opinion, just make a selection from his list. We'll see. We have a few days to think about before the deadline to vote. |
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| OH Musky,
If I may ask, what were the three answer choices he gave?
Thanks and good fishing!
TC |
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Location: E. Tenn | ..
Edited by miket55 7/8/2022 10:31 PM
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Location: deephaven mn | Waldacki just taking inventory of were his field stands on this issue.
Banning livescope and all other live electronics ( all companies have them)
would add another boat inspection proceess that may not be worth it.
Livescope is just a better version of side imaging. Most boats have one or both of these.
This technology was used last year by others and some tournament winners have admitted using livescope in the past, Intersting to see the results of the questioning.
you may lose competitors by isssuing a ban. |
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Location: oswego, il | If this type of sharpshooting is the future, I can see many of the traditional perennials who compete bowing out. It will eventually trickle down to club and local tournaments. It will change who will compete.and i think there will be less participation because of it. |
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| Lets not forget that ethical snagged fish are allowed to be entered without an issue. |
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Location: SW Ohio | kap - 7/9/2022 8:11 AM
Waldacki just taking inventory of were his field stands on this issue.
Banning livescope and all other live electronics ( all companies have them)
would add another boat inspection proceess that may not be worth it.
Livescope is just a better version of side imaging. Most boats have one or both of these.
This technology was used last year by others and some tournament winners have admitted using livescope in the past, Intersting to see the results of the questioning.
you may lose competitors by isssuing a ban.
There are no boat inspections on the PMTT. Used to have to open all compartments at the start but they haven’t done that in a couple years. I think any mid-season rules changes not directly related to safety are a bad idea but they have done that several times over the years. Usually to benefit one group or another but never for the betterment of everyone. |
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| I recall one of the BASS or MLF or one of the commentators talking about these units and the discussion centered around it giving many mostly older competitors new life...it put a lot of others off shore and their flipping spots were getting way less tourney pressure. I suspect the same would happen and if half the field is Snipping it....the advantage will be reduced quickly.
If it stays within the rules.
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Posts: 39
| Seems to me we had a similar discussion about today's technology some time ago. At that time I offered the following. Aldo Leopold, considered the father of modern resource management, Univ. Wi. often talked about how we as resource users "tend to kill what we love"
With today's current technology and with what will surly come in the relative future how can you possibly compare this to the "green box or paper graph". Notice the lack of question mark, it's just a thought to consider. |
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Posts: 2005
| Consider this. I heard a story of a guy using it on Vermilion last year. Basically, they drive around and cast at a very limited number of fish a day, and don't catch all they cast at. An average of 7 marks cast at is what comes to mind, can't remember the number they told my buddy. Compare that to casting the multiple spots you'd hit each day. I bet there were far more than 7 fish seeing your lure buzz by on those spots. |
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| Over the years there been talk of "far chase" in regards to fishing. We talk of electronics ECT and finding fish.
What about the fish? What do they see? I've chased these things since 1976. How big do these things get? And when they get big (super lunker sized) why can't we catch them?
If anybody's read "Time On The Water" by Bill Gardner he talks of the big three the late Tony Rizzo and Dick Rose along with still going Joe Bucher. Tony with his open water fishing and night fishing to beat fishing pressure and he also lived on a lake with a lot of state land. (this cut down on the amount of cabins) Joe came out with great lures and leaders and Dick died young at age 52 and guided part time but still put big fish in the boat.
These guys knew how to fish and taught a lot of us how to fish but what happened to all the big fish?
Dad and I have caught some big fish and on rare occasions seen some true giants. You catch a fish up to 54" and the true super lunkers feed in deep water, we see them up shallow but they not feeding. They hear our motors, deep finders and are out of there! In DickP.'s "Muskies On The Shield" in the section on Trout water he's talks about a guy who would row and drift into a bay what a half hour then make one cast. That is what it takes to catch a true giant! |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | If you have a direct criticism of the PMTT take it to them. There will be no bashing of any circuit here. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | fatturtle011 - 7/10/2022 4:50 PM
Seems to me we had a similar discussion about today's technology some time ago. At that time I offered the following. Aldo Leopold, considered the father of modern resource management, Univ. Wi. often talked about how we as resource users "tend to kill what we love"
With today's current technology and with what will surly come in the relative future how can you possibly compare this to the "green box or paper graph". Notice the lack of question mark, it's just a thought to consider.
Easy, the tech was just as shocking at the time and the same discussion was taking place. I was there, perhaps you were not. |
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| Technology and its impact on fishing is interesting. I remember when trolling motors became available. They were very crude and weak compared to what we have today but far superior to rowing or drifting for casting. There was concern they would make musky fishing too "easy". As someone who spent a fair amount of time on the oars of a 16' deep v aluminum boat with three guys in it, I thought it seemed like a darn fine idea ;>). Seemed like there were a lot of younger guys back then that had bad shoulders, backs, etc. that prevented them from spending much time on the oars.
Edited by North of 8 7/11/2022 12:50 PM
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Posts: 189
| Equity and Equality
If I remember correctly BASS (Ray Scott) provided all boats for the competitors for the 1st couple of Bass master Classics. They were also limited as to tackle at 15 - 20 lb- ? and the lake location was a secret. Hard to have a mega event weigh in if nobody knows where you are going to be. This didn't last long as Ray quickly realized the new circuit needed sponsors and spectators. Providing boats and limiting tackle only reduced sponsor participation. Not long after the 150 Hp outboard rule came off as well. BASS is wide open Hell, I have seen radar units strapped to bow pedestals to get through the fog.
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The operative word here is Pro. I have no problem with the Pro circuit doing whatever they loke and the Amateur / Fun events can restrict or embrace them as they please. |
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| in a few seasons everyone will have one and there will be no perceived unfair advantage... |
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| I'm not a tournament fishermen. So I don't care what they do! I'm looking for the biggest fish that swims. I have not been on a real up north fishing trip since 2018. Two books that really get me going are "Musky Strategy" Tom Gelb and "In Pursuit Of Giant Bass" by Bill Murphy. If we see them on our finders maybe they know where we are! Do they hear our deep finder? Trolling motor? waves hitting the side of the boat? shadows? maybe the sound of our lures gives us away? Maybe 52" don't care? maybe the 60" does! Is there a 60 incher?
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| Not at the level of your involvement, for sure, and thank you for that. But just a guy wondering where we end up. Do I have to be a sitting member to question or have a concern about the future of musky fishing? |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | fatturtle011 - 7/11/2022 7:47 PM
Not at the level of your involvement, for sure, and thank you for that. But just a guy wondering where we end up. Do I have to be a sitting member to question or have a concern about the future of musky fishing?
'With today's current technology and with what will surly come in the relative future how can you possibly compare this to the "green box or paper graph"'
I was reacting to this statement. |
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