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Posts: 32800
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | ' Fish not immediately released (i.e., prior to transport) are part of an angler's daily bag limit.'
https://dnr.wisconsin.gov/topic/Fishing/questions/possessionlimit.ht... |
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Posts: 1208
Location: E. Tenn | sworrall - 3/29/2022 10:50 PM
' Fish not immediately released (i.e., prior to transport ) are part of an angler's daily bag limit.'
https://dnr.wisconsin.gov/topic/Fishing/questions/possessionlimit.ht...
Understand, I'm playing the "devil's advocate" here, but what constitutes "immediate release"? These are things one sees so many times in the field, where offenders try to parse the rules/law to a subatomic level. I'm not up there during the closed season, but see similar sh..stuff going on.
Seriously thanks for the enlightenment..
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Posts: 480
Location: Northern Illinois | I talked to a CO near Eagle Lake Ontrario about the legality of fishing for pike before muskie season opens and whether a fisherman could be charged with fishing for muskie OOS even though he says he is targeting pike. The CO said that he had discretion to make the case. |
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Posts: 2237
Location: SE, WI. | I guess for me, I don’t tip up fish/ pike on lakes that have Muskie. What I don’t like is when these muskies are pulled through the ice, then they swim on the ice for a minute, then there’s a photo show that goes on for Minutes. Fins start to Freeze, and more importantly the eyes Membranes are effected. Not only that, but the amount of wire, and floro, that is left in the muskies mouth, because of swallowed bait. Every spring I seem to run into a ski that has leader, and hooks in their mouths. There have been many TV shows on weekends that have photo sessions of Muskies being iced. This is the wrong teachings, & it educates the public that it’s alright to do;( On sites this winter, many people complaining about walleye being undersized, and not catching legal fish. So, what they do, they take photos of their sub legal walleyes laying on the ice….laying there for who knows how long. Fins freezing, eyes freezing. Then they wonder why they don’t catch legal fish;( JD |
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Posts: 490
Location: NW WI | Maybe this is a dumb question, and yes I could certainly scour the web for this information I understand, but you guys prolly have more clear and trustworthy data I hope.
What's the purpose of a season on Musky? Aside from John Doe limiting the chances of 1 fish's ability to spawn to put on his wall.
Do they stress way easier in X cold temp range? Does stressing them in prespawn/spawn F-up their fertility %?
I'd seriously like to read some biological data if any has some. |
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Posts: 206
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota | 7.62xJay - 3/30/2022 12:18 AM
Maybe this is a dumb question, and yes I could certainly scour the web for this information I understand, but you guys prolly have more clear and trustworthy data I hope.
What's the purpose of a season on Musky? Aside from John Doe limiting the chances of 1 fish's ability to spawn to put on his wall.
Do they stress way easier in X cold temp range? Does stressing them in prespawn/spawn F-up their fertility %?
I'd seriously like to read some biological data if any has some.
Lately I have been wondering the same thing. I know that the fish are definitely weak during the spawn and immediately after. Part of me wonders why there is a season in a lot of our minnesota lakes that have 0 natural reproduction. Even with the season being closed these fish are consistently being caught after the general fishing opener by bass/walleye fisherman. The one I really don’t understand is why the musky season applies to the tiger musky fisheries here in the metro. A tiger musky can’t physically spawn so why does it need to be protected in the same time period a true musky does. From a conservative side I understand having a flat rule for all true musky lakes to allow them to recuperate from the spawn, but with as little natural reproduction that we have I wonder how much of a difference it actually makes
Edited by Ogandrews 3/30/2022 5:38 AM
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Posts: 8721
| I've wondered that as well. I think they do spawn and that obviously takes a toll on them. Hybrids do not produce viable eggs, and with naturals the eggs do not reach maturity for various reasons. I say let them do their thing. If even a few have eggs that survive that's a good thing.
Edited by esoxaddict 3/30/2022 1:36 PM
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Location: SE/WI | I fish N/IL for them through the ice and pre-spawn as they don't have a closed season and try SE/WI if we get good early ice before December 31st when it closes, but still going to same lakes in WI for Pike and Walleye so basically imo there is no difference except that you can't keep them not that I would anyway. I iced one March 1st & one on the 2nd which were last days before ice out. 39.25"& 38.75". Fish are well cared for, bump board/tools and video rolling for screenshot afterwards when solo so the fish is out a very minimal amount of time.
Total of 8 with 2 iced, 6 landed and 3 lost at net for me open water in March the limited times I was out.
They grab eggs from Kinkaid yearly for stocking which Is pressured pretty well pre-spawn thru post-spawn so maybe they could compare it to other fishery's egg data but the fact that they are successful in hatching new stock from there tells you it probably doesn't matter all that much.
Edited by Musky-Slayer 3/30/2022 4:00 PM
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Posts: 120
Location: Twin Cities Metro | The reason for the closed season is indeed to protect the fish from harassment during spawning. Note that fish do concentrate during the spawn, so there was/is a potential for exploitation during this time.
I will note that when people say things like “there is no natural reproduction”, they are unlikely to have data to support that. Yes, it SEEMS like natural reproduction is very limited, but we also don’t have many good population estimates for MN lakes, much less a meaningful genetic study of those populations to ascertain what percentage of the adult population is stocked fish.
One other little nugget on Hybrids: I read a scientific study (sorry, no citation!) that showed some hybrids CAN reproduce. How? They did a genetic study on some hybrids and found that some hybrids had mother that was a northern pike. All hybrids introduced into that lake were made with eggs from a muskie mother. So a hybrid male successfully bred with a female northern pike, it seems. And the sample wasn’t just one fish. Food for thought! |
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| While unusual, it's not unheard of for several different species of hybrids, to occasionally, breed successfully, when they are typically considered sterile. |
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| TCESOX - 3/30/2022 9:06 PM
While unusual, it's not unheard of for several different species of hybrids, to occasionally, breed successfully, when they are typically considered sterile.
Interesting. I know several people have suggested that a fisheries biologist be a guest on one of Slamr's podcasts and this could be one of the questions for them. |
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Posts: 267
Location: Central Pennsylvania | I think I remember Larry Ramsell saying something about tigers being able to possibly back-cross with male purebreds. May have been on an old thread but I was hoping he'd have some pictures of one of these said back-crosses |
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Posts: 596
Location: Duluth | Season exists to limit angler contact. Hooks in the face aren't good for long term survival, muskie are a slow growing resource. Simple As |
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Posts: 1971
| Probably better to catch them around spawn when water is in the 50's vs catching them in July when water temps are 75+...if you are looking at long term survival |
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Posts: 112
| I guess there are levels of respect I don't understand.
Fair enough, it's a subjective thing. I won't claim I can even explain it well. But a perhaps helpful analogy- I think it's the same reason that folks who deer hunt wouldn't pose with an eight-pointer they accidentally hit with their truck. They didn't want it to happen in the first place, and posing with it and being proud seems out of place.
Edited by joh10891 3/31/2022 10:33 AM
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| joh10891 - 3/31/2022 10:32 AM
I guess there are levels of respect I don't understand.
Fair enough, it's a subjective thing. I won't claim I can even explain it well. But a perhaps helpful analogy- I think it's the same reason that folks who deer hunt wouldn't pose with an eight-pointer they accidentally hit with their truck. They didn't want it to happen in the first place, and posing with it and being proud seems out of place.
But folks that hunt deer do post photos of deer taken prior to the season, that is a better analogy. |
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Posts: 518
Location: WI | CincySkeez - 3/31/2022 9:43 AM
Season exists to limit angler contact. Hooks in the face aren't good for long term survival, muskie are a slow growing resource. Simple As
Who’s face? The muskies or the walleye anglers playing bumper boats below the dams. Would be interested to watch a musky angler navigate threw the crowds. |
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Posts: 1196
| I think most muskies hooked before the season by Walleye fishermen are lost due to bite off or break off and have a jig or plain hook in them! I do know of a 45 pounder was caught in the late 70's on the general opener by Hayward on a minnow by Walleye fishermen. At that time there was no late opener and the fish was kept. At the same time I think this started the idea of going back to a late opening for Muskie. I think back in the 1930's and 40's there was a different opener for different fish and even what kind of bait. I think there was a time you could not use live crawdad till a certain date. I don't have all the facts but my late father told me some of this years ago. |
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Posts: 3784
| North of 8 - 3/31/2022 11:48 AM
joh10891 - 3/31/2022 10:32 AM
I guess there are levels of respect I don't understand.
Fair enough, it's a subjective thing. I won't claim I can even explain it well. But a perhaps helpful analogy- I think it's the same reason that folks who deer hunt wouldn't pose with an eight-pointer they accidentally hit with their truck. They didn't want it to happen in the first place, and posing with it and being proud seems out of place.
But folks that hunt deer do post photos of deer taken prior to the season, that is a better analogy.
Not better at all. That deer is dead and it wasn't accidently shot by a guy hunting squirrels. Only an idiot would post shots of a poached deer, but there are lots of idiots out there. My primary point is that a person who accidently hooks and lands a big fish is ok to take a pic before release. Tho they risk getting a ticket. My secondary point is that I got no patience with muskie guys who are militant about ensuring the welfare of the fish when they themselves are the biggest risk to that very welfare. Wanna be sure the fish is safe? Don't hook it in the first place.
I must be turning into a PETA anal unit. Somebody save me.
Edited by Ranger 4/1/2022 8:56 PM
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| Ranger - 4/1/2022 8:53 PM
North of 8 - 3/31/2022 11:48 AM
joh10891 - 3/31/2022 10:32 AM
I guess there are levels of respect I don't understand.
Fair enough, it's a subjective thing. I won't claim I can even explain it well. But a perhaps helpful analogy- I think it's the same reason that folks who deer hunt wouldn't pose with an eight-pointer they accidentally hit with their truck. They didn't want it to happen in the first place, and posing with it and being proud seems out of place.
But folks that hunt deer do post photos of deer taken prior to the season, that is a better analogy.
Not better at all. That deer is dead and it wasn't accidently shot by a guy hunting squirrels. Only an idiot would post shots of a poached deer, but there are lots of idiots out there. My primary point is that a person who accidently hooks and lands a big fish is ok to take a pic before release. Tho they risk getting a ticket. My secondary point is that I got no patience with muskie guys who are militant about ensuring the welfare of the fish when they themselves are the biggest risk to that very welfare. Wanna be sure the fish is safe? Don't hook it in the first place.
I must be turning into a PETA anal unit. Somebody save me.
No, the deer is not dead. Photos taken on trail cams. Very common. Deer are still very much alive. |
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Posts: 8721
| Let's be honest with ourselves and admit the only reason we care about the welfare of the fish is so we can catch them for our own entertainment shall we? |
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Posts: 596
Location: Duluth | Ranger and esoxaddict, I agree.
Seasons are needed because hooks are bad for the welfare of the fish. |
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Posts: 490
Location: NW WI | But that's just it though. Ranger is totally right. Which, given the 0 data I've found so far, forces me to conclude that a season is kinda dumb. So currently we have an open window for folks to catch them with improper gear and improperly handle them, Musky personalites/influencers trolling deep diving cranks for "Walleye", or pitching Medusas for "big pike". It's up to the Warden and later the court to decide if a heavy bass rod,medium baits, 50-65lb line with a leader is "Ilegal musky angling or legal bass angling".
So, your telling me that the only people that can't catch them, are those who want to do it in manner that is possible safer for the fish's health?
Here's some thoughts:
If you wanna possibly lower the amount of muskies killed,kept, and injured by those who don't know anybetter- Educational Signs at landings, just like that smallmouth organization has been doing.
Open up an early season, catch and release only,maybe as a separate tag, maybe even only valid on certain waters of the county.
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| 7.62xJay - 4/2/2022 10:30 AM
But that's just it though. Ranger is totally right. Which, given the 0 data I've found so far, forces me to conclude that a season is kinda dumb. So currently we have an open window for folks to catch them with improper gear and improperly handle them, Musky personalites/influencers trolling deep diving cranks for "Walleye", or pitching Medusas for "big pike". It's up to the Warden and later the court to decide if a heavy bass rod,medium baits, 50-65lb line with a leader is "Ilegal musky angling or legal bass angling".
So, your telling me that the only people that can't catch them, are those who want to do it in manner that is possible safer for the fish's health?
Here's some thoughts:
If you wanna possibly lower the amount of muskies killed,kept, and injured by those who don't know anybetter- Educational Signs at landings, just like that smallmouth organization has been doing.
Open up an early season, catch and release only,maybe as a separate tag, maybe even only valid on certain waters of the county.
I had the opportunity a few days ago to ask a Wis. warden about this. He said that it is difficult to make the charge stick if they go to court with an attorney. In his territory, there is an area below a dam that is open to catch and release bass fishing right now, but, there are also big walleyes staging to spawn in the same area. He believes some of the guys are deliberately targeting the walleye, which are off limits but since they can argue the bait they are using is bass bait, almost impossible to make a charge stick in court. Obviously if someone keeps a walleye that is a different story. |
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Posts: 8721
| I talked to a warden about this once. What he basically said was "I can tell you from across the lake what you are fishing for. Muskie rods, muskie lures, big net, okay... You can try to convince me you were fishing for something else, but how do you explain doing figure 8's after every cast?? |
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| esoxaddict - 4/2/2022 10:41 AM
I talked to a warden about this once. What he basically said was "I can tell you from across the lake what you are fishing for. Muskie rods, muskie lures, big net, okay... You can try to convince me you were fishing for something else, but how do you explain doing figure 8's after every cast??
Sure and some guys will just pay the ticket. I had asked the warden the specific question about if the ticket is contested in court. |
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Posts: 32800
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Look at Kentucky, Ohio, etc.
If there's NR, protect the fish through the spawn. If not they are literally there for us to CPR for as many years as they survive from stocking to death. The shorter the season, the fewer are caught, and the lower the mortality. Reasonable conservation, absolutely, if we want trophy opportunity.
So why do we want trophy opportunities? To take pictures and show off the accomplishment. To enjoy the sport and the journey through it. I'll resist with everything I have anyone trying to screw that up no matter what the motivation. Catching the #*^@ed things is the whole idea. So we should do what we do by implementing the best conservation practices so others can catch and release the fish we caught and released and we can grow and improve the sport. The new term for hunting and fishing for some is 'blood sports'. Some folks don't like.
It's a sport fish. Take out the 'sport', and it's just a fish.
As to 'breaking the law', we all are good at figuring out where the penalties begin and push it right to the edge. Speed limits reduce human deaths (proven) and they are widely ignored. Everyone knows how much they can push any regulation or law, and human nature makes sure we will. |
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Posts: 1196
| Years ago a fairly famous now deceased Muskie fishermen got in fist fight at the Minnesota fishing expo over the practice of fishing in western Wisconsin with small suckers after the general opener but before Muskie opener. |
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Posts: 490
Location: NW WI | sworrall - 4/2/2022 10:49 AM
Look at Kentucky, Ohio, etc.
If there's NR, protect the fish through the spawn. If not they are literally there for us to CPR for as many years as they survive from stocking to death. The shorter the season, the fewer are caught, and the lower the mortality. Reasonable conservation, absolutely, if we want trophy opportunity.
So why do we want trophy opportunities? To take pictures and show off the accomplishment. To enjoy the sport and the journey through it. I'll resist with everything I have anyone trying to screw that up no matter what the motivation. Catching the #*^@ed things is the whole idea. So we should do what we do by implementing the best conservation practices so others can catch and release the fish we caught and released and we can grow and improve the sport. The new term for hunting and fishing for some is 'blood sports'. Some folks don't like.
It's a sport fish. Take out the 'sport', and it's just a fish.
As to 'breaking the law', we all are good at figuring out where the penalties begin and push it right to the edge. Speed limits reduce human deaths (proven) and they are widely ignored. Everyone knows how much they can push any regulation or law, and human nature makes sure we will.
See I understand this point, simplified it's- Less time to hook one=less death of the fish. Quite simple formula yes. I'm not against this conservation practice.
I'm just struggling to understand why it's perfectly okay for what you could call "intentional accidental angling" which may have a higher mortality rate vs "proper angling" I suppose. Than you couple that with the fact that it's legal to angle muskies in water temperatures that have been shown to have a higher mortality rate on the fish annnd idk guys, I guess I'm just scratching my head on this one.
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Posts: 8721
| Ideally, for the sake of the fish, it would be good to have a law stating that it's illegal to fish for muskies when the water gets too warm. I think we'll have to police ourselves on that one because there's no way to monitor or enforce that on a lake to lake hour to hour basis. Closed season is easy. Do you what day it is? |
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