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Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | What is it with fishing lure prices these days? Can a manufacture not make a lure anymore and not sell it for more than $15? I am not the richest person, and neither is the majority of musky fisherman out there. It just blows me away that any new lure that comes out these days start out at $16 or more. I'm sure these lures take time to make, but a lure that is for most part a hunk of wood with some lead in it should not cost $20!
This sport is becoming a rich mans sport like fly fishing did. When is it ever going to stop!?! I can understand some of the handmade lures that are limited qty, but mass produced lures I don't understand.
I'm I way off base here?
I would just like to thank Suick,Bagley, an Mepps/Mister Twister for continuing to make some of the best lures at the lowest prices!
Edited by CiscoKid 1/14/2004 12:05 PM
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Posts: 1335
Location: Chicago, Beverly | Cisco, I do not think you are out of line, nor do I mean offense to all the manufactures that frequent the site. It does seem as if prices have gone up a decent amount. It also seems like there are a lot more custom type baits out now with some very trick paint jobs then in the past. Could it be a portion of the painting driving up costs? You did leave out Rapala. They still make good baits under $15. |
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Posts: 2427
Location: Ft. Wayne Indiana | I don't have a problem with lure prices. Either you buy them or you don't. What about truck prices, boat prices, lodging, $89.00 a night just to sleep in a bed????
I don't complain about prices. Am I rich? Hell no! I just simply don't care if I spend $20 on a lure. Everything is expensive. You aren't going to change that!
Mike Hulbert
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Posts: 743
| Cry me a river, then i'll go cast $50 baits in it!!! just teasing you Travis. Well, how about this...have you built any baits before? from scratch? or get finished pieces and just put them together? or buy a lure that is put together and just paint it? well, if you have ever made lure before, you know how time consuming it is. VERY TIME consuming. and, in the musky world, you cant' get rich selling lures. that's a fact. Hell, i wouldnt' make lures and sell them to make $.50 a lure or $1.00 a piece. If companies cant/dont' charge a fair price for their labor/material, then they guys like me, Mr. Weekend Warrior, won't be able to buy new lures. People wont' just make lures for the fun of it and give them away. there has to be an incentive to sell them...and good will and friendship doens't count.
Lures take alot of man power to turn out. i know 1st hand. and how much is your time worth? i hope more than fifty cents. if it was a simple as a piece of w/ lead, then they might cost $6, but they are not. I applaud all the new musky tackle guys out there, it's a tough business w/ low margins...
I'm not attacking you ciscokid, i'm just sharing my thoughts. i'm glad mepps and suicks are cheap. that's neat.
damn winter. keep it reel
tomcat |
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Posts: 346
| Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the mass production guys like Bucher and Maina have expensive plastic molds (something like 20-30 grand for each mold, I believe), probably very expensive computerized painting machines, labor, time, etc.
MJB |
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Posts: 3240
Location: Racine, Wi | I'm kinda torn on this topic. There are baits avail in all price ranges. I can see paying more for some baits and not quite as much for others. It can be hard on the wallet, but traditionally the musky baits have been pretty pricey. Maina baits are usually pretty well priced for being a molded bait, and you can always pick some up at Bass Pro Shops on sale for dirt cheap. I don't understand then why the Bucher baits are so pricey. THe paint jobs on them aren't that elaborate, and they have been around a while. I guess we would have to have a behind the scenes look to get a good picture on why they are expensive. I guess I'll have to keep buying them when I have money.  During my stint in the Fishing Lure business, I can verify that there isn't alot of money in that business.
Good Lungen,
Joel |
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Posts: 393
Location: Kawarthas, Ontario | I agree with you Travis, that's why I started making my own. I couldn't afford to have the tackle box of lures every fisherman has (regardless of your target species), especially when you do the US to CDN $ conversion.
As Tomcat said, it takes time to make baits - baits that work anyway. I spend a lot of time lake testing every bait until I'm happy with it. If I'm not happy I can't expect anyone who buys one to be happy. I make mostly cranks and getting them to work right at high speeds is a fidgety thing. I'll never get rich selling anything I make, but maybe, just maybe, somebody might catch a decent sized fish (like a record class fish) on one of my baits. Now if that were to happen, that would be worth more to me than what I'd get from all the money from all the lures I've ever sold.
If you're really unhappy with prices, try making your own. I'm doing a workshop in Toronto this weekend and I know there will be one in Wisconsin very soon. Here's the quote from http://www.tackleunderground.com "I am "assistant teaching" a crankbait making class at our local Muskies Inc. meeting in Madison, WI, in March (open to public if anyone's interested).."
Sorry, I don't have any further info.
Cheers,
o2l
Edited by out2llunge 1/14/2004 12:58 PM
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Posts: 236
| I can't speak for the plastic lures because I never throw them, but if I used one of my homemade hardwood baits with a good finish and the SS screweyes, I could fish hundreds of days with it.
Compare that with a walleye/panfish fisherman who fishes hundreds of days with jigs and livebait.
Its not even close when comparing price.
The same holds true for reefhawgs. You could buy a High quality hand tested/painted bait that is guarenteed to run great. Or you can take a risk buying a mass produced bait that won't last as long and may work or may not work. I chuckeled when someone on the board said they started thier camp fire with a handful of baits that didn't work.
you get what you pay for.
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Posts: 87
Location: michigan | We are very fortunate here around Lake St. Clair. We have quite a few local guys producing custom made lures out of thier houses and the stiff competition has kept the prices down pretty good. I have seen some of them mentioned on the boards but not very often. Unfortunatly none of these guys here advertise thier baits not even at the local tackle shops. The only way to get them is to go to thier house. They make thousands every winter and always run out early. Most of them like lokes, rippers producers and masons are still only $15. If anyone ever gets out this way let me know maybe I can arrange to take you over to there houses and hook you up. |
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Posts: 1335
Location: Chicago, Beverly | Mike I'll address a couple of your questions. Truck prices are out of line. Boat prices have pratically sunk the industry putting many companies out of business. Lodges, prices seem to vary still on those. Some places can be as low as $30-40 but what do they have for amenities? Some places for $89 might be as nice as someones home.. I wasn't complaining. Not sure if Cisco was either. Five years ago lots of my custom stuff was going for $15, now its going for $20-23. Seemed like a valid question. Am I rich? H3ll no, I am a unemployed electrician that spent about $100 or so on stuff at the show. $20 looks pretty damn expensive on unemployment. I am not looking to change prices(well maybe on boats and trucks) nor was I complaining. Just pointing out something I saw at the show and noticed more then last year when the local kept me working all winter. Am I complaining now? Sure, unemployment sucks, I couldn't get all that I wanted at the show this year...lol.. I still would like to hear from a couple guys that manufacture, I would like to know what has caused increases in prices. New paints, prices of pieces and parts go up for them..whatever. More time spent on quality control.. |
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Posts: 32799
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | A bit of insight from an industry guy: My son owns a lure company. He builds a couple very limited edition wood lures. Here is a breakdown on his time/costs. Wood blanks, turned and produced by another vendor---$2.00 apiece Hardware including hooks, hangers, wire, etc,---$1.35 Paint process, one color and seal (VERY INEXPENSIVE WAY TO PAINT)---$.75 Labor--1/2 hour. OK, here we go. Total for the bait production parts cost is $4.10. At $10 per hour, labor is $5. that is $9.10 so far. No advertising, travel, or marketing/sales costs yet. Add about $1 per bait there, minimum. $10.75 so far. Margin at 30%, bait goes to dealer for $13. Dealer margins again, bait sells for $18.50 at minimum. Let's say Keith does a limited Dog Turd run of 75 baits. He would gross about $390, and get paid $10 per hour for 37.5 hours, so his total is about $765. Not exactly a killing, but if one could do that every week, things would be great. Unfortunately, there are not all that many Dog Turd baits in demand, so one has to add models, which adds cost, and adds and adds. Expenses are another story. A show booth costs about $450. He would have to sell 88 lures to keep his labor costs and break even if he sold at wholesale, and 44 if he sold at retail. That is before he made a nickle's profit. Mass produce, and you add economy of scale. |
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Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Thanks for the informative insight Steve. However, my main problem for one is mass production of baits should make it cheaper than "one offs". Sure the first 100 baits may be expensive, but at a certain point the production of more baits make it cheaper to build that same bait.
Custom baits on the other hand I can see being a little more expensive like you pointed out. The thing with custom baits, in my eyes at least, is the extra 30% you pointed out that is added from the retailer to the consumer should not be added if that bait is not offered at any other place other than the builder of that lure. Now I don't know if your sons bait is offered at any retailers, but if it is not why shouldn't it sell for $13.50?
I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers here by any means. I'm just trying to get a grasp on why all new lure these days start out at $15 or more. Shouldn't a lure start out cheap (at least cheaper) at initial release because the supply of that bait is intially greater than the demand until the bait has been proven and becomes popular? Then the price shall go up a bit. Perhaps the internet has made the supply/demand so that demand is greater than the supply before a lure even hits the market.
It makes me wonder when I can get a custom molded crankbait, custom painted, made in limited quantities at a cheaper price than similar lures on the market.
Edited by CiscoKid 1/14/2004 2:20 PM
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Posts: 202
Location: Angola, IN | CiscoKid, If you want to make a large lot of lures and sell them, the easiest way is to get a retailer to display and sell them for you. If I make a bait for $10.50, and want to make $3 per lure, I could sell it for $13.50. Everyone would be happy. I'd make my $3, and everyone would get a nice bait for less than $15. But I could sell a lot more lures if I had Gander Mountain or Cabelas sell my lure. Right?? Of course. I'd be able to sell a few to my friends and people I chat with on the musky boards, but if I wanted to sell more than a 100 lures, I'd have to supply these lures to retail stores. They are going to mark the lures up, so they can make money. So, now it sells for $18.50. It's not a real good idea to under-cut your retailers. Meaning, Galayans or Cabelas would be really upset, and could take legal action against me, if they bought a bunch of lures from me for $13.50, but they were NOT selling any, because everyone knows you could get them for $13.50 if you contacted me. It's the same reason why you can't buy Mepp's Bucktails at the Mepp's booth or Ernie's at the Musky Mania booth.....because Mepp's wants you to buy them from their retailers. Once the retailers see how much money they are making by selling Mepp's bucktails, they will place another order to Mepp's....and Mepp's makes more money. Mepp's would be shooting themselves in the foot if they took business away from their retailers. Does that make sense?? I hope this explains why a mass-produced lure is more expensive than you think it should be. |
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Posts: 1996
Location: Pelican Lake/Three Lakes Chain | Simple economics here, supply and demand. If there is no demand for the product the supply side will find a way to lower their price, if there is high demand the supply side will raise their price. I think "us" the lure collectors are driving the whole system.
You gotta love capitalism!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Posts: 32799
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Steve has it right, and market forces dictate what things sell for, plain and simple. A garage builder COULD sell his product for $13, but why WOULD he? It isn't like he is making a fortune if he sells about a hundred a year. AND.....if he wants to sell the hundred, he has to go out into the public to do so. Shows, or other exposure costs a ton. OK, let's say mass producing a lure out of plastic costs about 20% less after adding the per lure cost for tooling and development. Packaging and UPC coding, advertising so that the retailers will stock your product, and a booth at the shows supporting the retailers ends up eating that amount up, for the most part. If the bait is hard to get and lots of people want it, the price will go WAY up. Look at the Topraider prices from this year as an example. If the bait is plentiful, but is not in demand, then the margins will fall until the company cannot afford to produce the lure, and it dies. Building Muskie baits is a business, just like any other. Someone mentioned boat prices going way up. yes they have, but not more than inflation, materials, and labor have. The average factory margin has actually been shrinking for several years now. WHat is a 1990 dollar worth in today's value? |
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| There’s no money in the lure business… |
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Posts: 32799
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Of course there is money in the lure business, that isn't the point. IT IS a business, and that IS the point. Some will do well, and last in the business. Some won't, and they will not. Free market economy, what a wonder! |
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Posts: 2384
Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | You all forgot the returns the big retailer do at the end of the year for their accountants. Be expected to have 10-20% of what you sold to Gander, BPS, etc returned at the end of the year. Now take that straight out of your profits and your losing money in Travis's business model.
You all forgot to add for prostaffers to get you pretty pics because people won't buy a bait w/o seeing the results. Paint jobs have to be more elaborite these days or else people won't buy ($3.50-$4.00). Add a web page, health insurance, 10% federal excise tax, capital equipment (power tools, paint booth, etc), packaging (.10-.75 each) and low demand of muskie lures and you've got an uphill battle to make a profit much less a living. Not too many lure mfg's running around in $30,000+ boats out there.
You thank Mepps and Suick for keeping the prices down, but they've had a 30+ year head start on everyone to get their name out.
I think you get what you pay for. If you don't like the price at the shows look on ebay or a lure swap and get a "prefished" bait.
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Posts: 7010
Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | I have an Isuzu Rodeo, I like it very much (runs better now WITH oil in it I find), it runs, gets me to work, and usually can get the boat out of the water. I also really hate my Isuzu Rodeo, because it isnt the Range Rover/Toyota Sequoia/Nissan Titan that I want. I have an Isuzu Rodeo because I can't afford a more expensive, and probably better, truck.
I can't afford a more expensive truck because my job doesnt at present pay me enough to buy a new truck. If I were to get a second job, or possibly third, or maybe just changed jobs or careers, I might be able to afford a new truck. If I didn't live in my apartment, I could afford that new truck (though if I ever bring a girl home, it would be slightly less appealing to her when I say "hey baby, wanna go back to my parents house with me?).
I love my lures, I only have 80, and personally, I don't think I need anymore. Thats me I guess. I can't afford to go hog wild on lure buying like I used to (trust me married guys, having a two income family is much easier than being on your own), so I make due with what I have. If I hadn't just bought a new reel, I could have bought $144 at the show on lures. If I hadn't bought 7 new rods (I trashed everything else) in the last year and a half, I would have more money for lures.
Lures are expensive, trucks are expensive, houses are expensive.....its 2004 now, things as a whole are expensive. But my overall point to this long and rambling post is this: things are expensive, but we all have our own limits to what we feel we need to buy, versus what we want to buy. The things we need to buy, that we can afford (and sometimes cant) we buy. Things we want (fishing lures, as much as you may not believe it, unless you are a commercial fisherman, are a WANT and not a need) get prioritized versus other things we need to spend money on.
Lures are more expensive, if you feel you NEED to buy them, you will. If you just want them, then you'll figure out how much you want them, and if you can afford them, buy them. If you dont feel your want/need level justifies their purcase, then don't buy them. If the muskie world showed the muskie manufacturers of the world that the prices are too high by not buying them, the prices will go down, or at least stabilize.
Did this make ANY sense? I've drank two pots of coffee, smoked a whole pack of smokes, and not eaten all day....if it didnt make any sense, I wont be surprised. |
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Posts: 246
Location: Jamestown, Pa. | Ok Guys, I don't know if I can help much but here goes.
Steve put it through to you straight as did a couple other gents but lets not forget that a lot of the companies have employees to take care of, IE; training, SS taxes, Uneployment taxes, liability insurance, workmans comp. insurance. utilities, material, paint ( which goes up in price about every three months), rent or mortgage on the shop, wages, benefits ( if you can make enough to afford them ), employee incinetives ( because few can pay a decent wage from the low profit end), employee training, tools, equiptment, accountant fees ( a normal person would never understand the IRS crap in business taxes, etc, etc, and etc.
The list goes on and anyone out there that has ever had their own business can tell you that there is alot of costs that goes unseen.
I am going to stop right here as this gives me a pain just to think of my costs compared to a meager profit and I wouldn't want to start thinking the H@#$ with it all and quit what my wife and I spent seven profitless years to build to the point where we are just now seeing such a meager profit. I think I would rather go back to welding, at least I knew I could bring home a steady paycheck.
On a side note, if I didn't really like what I am doing this well, I WOULD get out of it.
Just think about it and try to wear their shoes, for most of us, it's not as great as one would think.
Tight lines to all,
Edited by Stan Durst 1/14/2004 7:19 PM
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Posts: 1536
Location: God's Country......USA..... Western Wisconsin | Having been in the tackle manufacturing business in the past I can tell you first hand that it is indeed a very "tough nut" to crack. The costs involved are sometimes staggering. If you manufacture fishing tackle, especially Muskie fishing tackle, it is rather limited market. Most jobs out in the real world pay a decent enough wage. But believe me the hourly wage for the owner of a tackle company is very low on the pay scale and very few Muskie fishermen would work for what it pays. Except for a few major lure companies it is more a labor of love than a means to make a living. Trust me I know a bit about this business. Not much, but a little bit. Oh by the way, you are all being very generous in the % that the retail stores markup the lures they sell. The % is generally much higher than what has been quoted. Some of the jigs and spinnerbaits we sold at one time were marked up 100% from the price that we sold them for. Case in point, if I sold a Bass jig to a retailer at $.72 each I would routinely see it in the store at $1.50, a Bass size spinnerbait that I sold for $1.25 with a Ballbearing swivel and silicone skirt would retail at $2.50 to $3.00. The markup on higher priced Muskie sized jigs and spinners was slightly lower but not by much. One or two more costs to add and I will sit down for now. Ever hear of product liability INSURANCE? Just try to sell to any major store or at any major show without having any. Very pricey as well. How about the Wallup/Brouex (spelling) act? This little gem is a 10% federal excise tax on all fishing tackle manufactured in the country. In the tackle business we mostly only hope for a continual 10% profit on all of our items. Just remember that when you buy a lure you are paying this 10% whether you know it or not. Worse yet, you pay sales tax on that 10% as well. A tax on a tax, makes it just that much more expensive. Just thought that I would shed some light on costs as they really are. The garage lure companies can sell for less as they do not have some of these costs involved. We did ok and then sold our business a few years ago and came out about even for money invested. For the hours worked I guess we just donated some time for a little education in business. I never said we were good at it just that we were in the business and that we did not lose our shirt. Hope this adds a little perspective to the costs involved. |
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Posts: 1137
Location: Holly, MI | Well Stan and Mike gave us the way low-down that I was waiting to hear. I'm sure they are right on the money. I cringe and cry about the prices of many of the baits, some I would love to have but just won't buy them. We all pick where we are willing to spend our money. Slammer bought rods, I spend too much on reels. I have a Shimano Calais that I love but won't plunk down $50 on a Hughes River.
Remember the post last year about the sport growing? More people buying higher volume= maybe more competition, higher volumes of lures, and lower prices. The same post argued more peeps not cpr, ramp traffic, etc. Most agreed they would rather (I think) not see the Muskie sport grow too fast. Small sport = high priced, high quality gear. We all chose to go with it anyway. Most of us probably never knew in the beginning how bad the addiction and spending habits would get however. |
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Posts: 4266
| I think of lures as investments.
I also believe that lure makers have to eat too.
I talked with one guy who makes very expensive lures, and he said he can't keep people employed. Their job? Sanding lure bodies by hand to precise specifications. He said he's paying a good wage and paying benefits, but it's hard work and nobody stays. I know I wouldn't be able to sand lures for 8 hours a day!
Then add in a fancy paint job and a few coats of Envirotex.....even at minimum wage, it's still going to be expensive.
I have no problem paying what people charge if the product is worth it.
Besides, it'll be fun watching you guys fight over it all when I die!
Beaver |
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Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Thanks for all the responses guys. For one I just wanted to know the scoop on things since I am not in the tackle business and make my own lures. Most of us out here do not know what it takes to sell a lure, thus think about the vary same thing I had asked in this post. I hope everyone that has read this and are in the same boat as me now understand what goes into a lure a little bit more. I was aware of most of the costs mentioned, but not aware of some of the others.
I apologize if I stepped on any toes here becasue that was not my intention. Now when people take a look at a lure and see the price, perhaps they will think back to this post and buy the lure instead of saying "There is no way that lure is worth $20". Besides, I now have a better argument for why I spend what I do on lures with my wife! |
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| Musky Treats,
Gander does'nt send back baits, they either sell or get put on the clearance table. |
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Posts: 4266
| Cisco Kid, I'm willing to bet that everyone on this board has bought a lure that wound up in the fireplace or garbage can or up in a tree or at the bottom of the lake at some time during their career. If they deny it, they are liars....HEY,WAIT...we're muskie fisherpeople so we are all liars anyway.
I know that I've flushed a bunch of $20's down the toilet during my lure buying days and I'm not done.
Making lures is a long, time consuming process.
Some companies change the product in order to keep the price low. Take Suicks for example. Look at a Suick made in the 50's or 60's...not a sharp edge on it and a wiggle like no other chop bait. All those sharp edges took time and effort to sand off, so now you get a square or rectangular substitute of the original. Is it to keep the price down? I can't say for sure, but I bet it had something to do with the change of the body shape.
Now all the Suicks that I buy get the paint buzzed off with a wire wheel and I spend about 2 hours sanding them to look like the originals. Then I put on sanding sealer and sand them some more. If Suick did that, they'd be charging $30 a piece for their lures.
Some lures are worth it and some aren't.
Beav |
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Posts: 246
Location: Jamestown, Pa. | Hey CiscoKid,
I don't consider an honest question as tramping on anyones toes. I was more than happy to help enlighten the idea that all business people have money rolling out their A##. I have an old worn out tri-hull that I hate but it doesn't leak and it gets me on the water when I have the time. I pull it with an old "91" S-10 that has 183,000 miles on it and I call it the Rust Bucket and I have to work on it alot but it pulls my boat and gets me out on short trips. I fish with the same fancy paint jobs that I do for the fisherpeople. Those are the newest things in my fishing rig. If the profits WERE good, I could lower my prices ( which I would).
Just hope people look at the whole picture with a better idea of what it is really like for the small man.
Kudo's to all and God Bless,
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Posts: 5129
| I was told before I started its a richmans game and for the most part they are right.Reeds had awesome deals that kept everyone honest at the Chicago show,since they were forced out prices have been way out of control.On the other hand if you do sell a bait 15-40 dollars most of the time you have that bait forever,unlike many bass lures that r at the bottom of many lakes.I think the lure business for the most part is a lose, lose situation for seller and buyer,unless you are rich.0723 |
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Posts: 147
Location: Leech Lake, Walker, MN. | Reeds was not at the Chicago show, do you mean Thorne Bros.
Murph |
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Posts: 13
Location: Stellendam, The Netherlands | Maybe my reply might makes you guys feel better. I live in the Netherlands and lures are very expensive here. A Grandma 9" crankbait costs $35. You pay $29 for a Bucher Shallow Raider and $23 for a Depth Raider. What about $27 for a Bull Dawg? Or $45 for a Manta glider? I order most of my lures from the States. Because even with an extra 40% for shipping and taxes, lures are still cheaper than in my own country. And now I haven't even mentioned the high prices we pay for boats, outboard and fuel.
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