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| Not joking. Almost all of them were seen or caught the three days after the new moon. I’ll say this most of the fish we saw were on an old jerkbait from the 70’s and the two fish pictured were on an bucktail a lot of people disregarded. Like I said old and trust and something new. |
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| 70's,,that narrows it down alot,,,,Eddie,mudpuppy,ciscoe kid or my guess is a Teddie. |
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| These two trips kind of sum up the V for me, and they aren't complaints, I love going there.
1. Saw more fish than the previous 4 trips combined. 0 takers.
2. Saw 0 fish. Caught a fitty.
I just make sure I'm on a good spot at what should be good times, and fish for other stuff when I get tired. The lake is a blast. |
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| After spending three days at buddy's cabin a lot relaxing on the porch watching boat after boat hit his area.
I would suggest slowing down those tailbait topwater or switching because the fish are seeing an endless parade of burned prop baits. |
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Location: SE Wisc | happy hooker - 8/7/2018 3:32 PM
After spending three days at buddy's cabin a lot relaxing on the porch watching boat after boat hit his area.
I would suggest slowing down those tailbait topwater or switching because the fish are seeing an endless parade of burned prop baits.
You’re just saying that to keep me off the hot bite! |
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Location: Northern Illinois | I'll be up there in 2 weeks with a guide I'll let you know how many I catch!! |
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| Could it be that they reduced Muskie stocking on Lake Vermilion to be able to better analyze natural reproduction rates?
Aside from the poor catch rates... there are times when the lake is absolutely on fire. I am not sure fish population is an issue.
Sometimes... each fish/spot needs more, individual attention.
The run and gun... cover as much water... approach is not always the best way to go about catching numbers of fish.
At times... one can catch more fish on just a couple spots... than one can catch trying to fish as much as the lake as possible... which seems to be the way many fish Lake Vermilion.
I have not fished the lake in years... so, I am simply throwing out ideas based on the results I have been given and what I have seen posted. |
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Location: Minneapolis, MN | Western MN has gotten a HEAVY fish per acre stocking rate the last 20 years.
That is why the V, ML, SLR all have gone from "world class" to "drive past."
Its just math.
However on a funny note, I do love hearing that the lake is still good from people who hardly fish the lake, especially people who fish it one time a year at most. I guess we should ignore what the people who have fished it everyday the last 10 years and what their feedback is  |
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Location: Minneconia | The_Answer - 8/10/2018 7:15 AM
Western MN has gotten a HEAVY fish per acre stocking rate the last 20 years.
That is why the V, ML, SLR all have gone from "world class" to "drive past."
Its just math.
However on a funny note, I do love hearing that the lake is still good from people who hardly fish the lake, especially people who fish it one time a year at most. I guess we should ignore what the people who have fished it everyday the last 10 years and what their feedback is :)
Are you the guide helping the opposition in Ottertail? |
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Location: Elk River, MN | The_Answer - 8/10/2018 7:15 AM
Western MN has gotten a HEAVY fish per acre stocking rate the last 20 years.
That is why the V, ML, SLR all have gone from "world class" to "drive past."
Its just math.
However on a funny note, I do love hearing that the lake is still good from people who hardly fish the lake, especially people who fish it one time a year at most. I guess we should ignore what the people who have fished it everyday the last 10 years and what their feedback is :)
I don't think you can blame Western MN for the lack of fish going into V/SLR/ML. The number of fish that go into those lakes are still a fraction of what would be needed for these lakes to be "up to par."
I think we can all agree that those lakes deserve more attention, but it's not that other lakes are taking their fish away. As long as politicians don't get in the way of things I think we'll see some improvements over the next few years. |
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Location: Chisholm, MN | Reelwise - 8/10/2018 4:09 AM
Could it be that they reduced Muskie stocking on Lake Vermilion to be able to better analyze natural reproduction rates?
Aside from the poor catch rates... there are times when the lake is absolutely on fire. I am not sure fish population is an issue.
Sometimes... each fish/spot needs more, individual attention.
The run and gun... cover as much water... approach is not always the best way to go about catching numbers of fish.
At times... one can catch more fish on just a couple spots... than one can catch trying to fish as much as the lake as possible... which seems to be the way many fish Lake Vermilion.
I have not fished the lake in years... so, I am simply throwing out ideas based on the results I have been given and what I have seen posted.
The only thing I can say to that is that when some of the best guides and fisherman in the world are struggling on a lake, they resort to new or old tactics to try and pick up some fish. It's the first thing to try. Believe me, we are all trying everything we can to get fish so I highly doubt there is one magic solution to get all those fish to bite that nobody can figure out. Also, the last time the lake was on fire was the PMTT. Since then the pressure exploded because of the press, and the lake has taken a turn for the worse. It's my belief that the fish are dying because of hooking mortality and also just unwilling to bite because of all the pressure. And just because the pressure isn't like the Mad Chain or any Illinois lake, doesn't mean it is bad and bad for the lake. It's bad, and still is today. |
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Location: Northern Illinois | Way to many acres and water to be that pressured just saying. |
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Location: MN | muskyhunter07 - 8/9/2018 10:14 PM
I'll be up there in 2 weeks with a guide I'll let you know how many I catch!!
Are you fishing with The_Answer ?
muskyhunter07 - 8/10/2018 8:49 AM
Way to many acres and water to be that pressured just saying.
You must not fish the lake much. The pressure is insane. Take your number to fish the good spots.
This year I noticed if it wasn't the peak of the major or minor you may as well not fish. That is pressured fish. |
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Location: Northern Illinois | Lol you havent seen green bay, Fox chain, the list goes on. Pressure fish are all over. But having 40K acres is a plus.
Edited by muskyhunter07 8/10/2018 10:48 AM
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Location: MN | Kirby Budrow - 8/10/2018 8:37 AM
The only thing I can say to that is that when some of the best guides and fisherman in the world are struggling on a lake, they resort to new or old tactics to try and pick up some fish. It's the first thing to try. Believe me, we are all trying everything we can to get fish so I highly doubt there is one magic solution to get all those fish to bite that nobody can figure out. Also, the last time the lake was on fire was the PMTT. Since then the pressure exploded because of the press, and the lake has taken a turn for the worse. It's my belief that the fish are dying because of hooking mortality and also just unwilling to bite because of all the pressure. And just because the pressure isn't like the Mad Chain or any Illinois lake, doesn't mean it is bad and bad for the lake. It's bad, and still is today.
Just for comparison, I checked the stocking on a couple Mad Chain lakes. Over the years 2004-2013, here is the tally:
LAKE ------- ACRES --- FINGERLINGS --- FINGERLINGS/ACRE
Vermilion --- 39272 ---- 18002 --------- 0.46
Monona ---- 3274 ----- 14958 --------- 4.6
Waubesa --- 2074 ----- 11592 --------- 5.6
Those lakes had 10 and 12 times the fish stocked into them over this period. Sure seems plausible to me that they would be more resilient to pressure.
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | nar160 - 8/10/2018 10:39 AM
Kirby Budrow - 8/10/2018 8:37 AM
The only thing I can say to that is that when some of the best guides and fisherman in the world are struggling on a lake, they resort to new or old tactics to try and pick up some fish. It's the first thing to try. Believe me, we are all trying everything we can to get fish so I highly doubt there is one magic solution to get all those fish to bite that nobody can figure out. Also, the last time the lake was on fire was the PMTT. Since then the pressure exploded because of the press, and the lake has taken a turn for the worse. It's my belief that the fish are dying because of hooking mortality and also just unwilling to bite because of all the pressure. And just because the pressure isn't like the Mad Chain or any Illinois lake, doesn't mean it is bad and bad for the lake. It's bad, and still is today.
Just for comparison, I checked the stocking on a couple Mad Chain lakes. Over the years 2004-2013, here is the tally:
LAKE ------- ACRES --- FINGERLINGS --- FINGERLINGS/ACRE
Vermilion --- 39272 ---- 18002 --------- 0.46
Monona ---- 3274 ----- 14958 --------- 4.6
Waubesa --- 2074 ----- 11592 --------- 5.6
Those lakes had 10 and 12 times the fish stocked into them over this period. Sure seems plausible to me that they would be more resilient to pressure.
It's not that simple. Way more to successful muskie population management than stocking data. |
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Location: Chisholm, MN | muskyhunter07 - 8/10/2018 10:35 AM
Lol you havent seen green bay, Fox chain, the list goes on. Pressure fish are all over. But having 40K acres is a plus.
It doesn't matter if GB or Fox or Mad or where receive more pressure per acre. It's still a lot for the lake. And have you been there to see it? Do you fish there all the time or were you there on you yearly trip?
Other lakes with a lot of pressure may have more fish and might be at their peak. Vermilion is different. It's a declining system and the amount of pressure does not fit the amount of fish in the lake. |
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Location: Chisholm, MN | https://www.dnr.state.mn.us/lakevermilion/index.html
Here is the newly revised plan for vermilion. The DNR does not want the lake to be a high population lake (who knows why). I just think they don't want to make anybody mad, so they do less. 3000 fish a year. Pretty low but I guess that's how they want to manage it. |
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Location: MN | sworrall - 8/10/2018 11:33 AM
It's not that simple. Way more to successful muskie population management than stocking data.
While I agree it's not a simple one-dimensional issue, we are talking about an order of magnitude here.
For reference, the attached plot shows stocking vs. adult pop density on 16 different lakes in MN. The horizontal axis is fingerlings per acre stocked 2004-2013, and the vertical axis shows acres per adult muskie according to the latest DNR population assessment. I wish I had a lot more lakes to compare, but not all lakes have had assessments recently.
You might note all of low density examples have low stocking, and none of the lakes stocked 3+/acre have more than 8 acres/adult. Vermilion is not on the graph (no assessment), but it would be to the left of all data points as it has lower stocking than any of the lakes plotted. Doing a quick search I found an estimate of ~ 0.5 fish/acre on the Mad Chain, so those would be at (5,2) on the graph.
(stocking vs density.JPG)
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Location: MN | Kirby Budrow - 8/10/2018 1:49 PM
https://www.dnr.state.mn.us/lakevermilion/index.html
Here is the newly revised plan for vermilion. The DNR does not want the lake to be a high population lake (who knows why ). I just think they don't want to make anybody mad, so they do less. 3000 fish a year. Pretty low but I guess that's how they want to manage it.
It says up to 2k surplus every 2 years, 8k max per 2 year period. This gives 30-40k per 10 years, double what it got 04-13. Hopefully that will help. There was also a decent stocking in 2015 - over 8k went in that year. In a few years maybe things will turn around.
My understanding from talking with the DNR is that they standardized the stocking rate to 1 fish per littoral acre every 2 years. V being 15k littoral, this rate (6-8k / 2 yr) is about half of the standardized rate. The definition and use of littoral acres is a bit arbitrary, but at least the stocking rate is somewhat equitable. |
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Location: Minneconia | I think littoral acres don't matter much at all when large populations of pelagic baitfish are present. Never understood that metric, seems arbitrary |
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| Is Muskie Fishing supposed to be easy? Didn’t I read a newspaper article in 2017 that at least 4 muskies 55” or larger were caught in 3 days? Wow!! Sure it’s a tough lake, but for a fish of a lifetime (to me that’s 55”+) one of the best places on earth!!! For me keep stocking V low density, I don’t go to V trying to catch 30 a week, I want 1 ..the right one and I like a challenge
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| Sounds like Vermilion will remain an artificial-fishery from here on out with the way people want to manage the lake.
Nothing wrong with that... but, don't expect the lake to do so well if there is ever a time we can no longer stock Muskies - which is evident right now even with stocking. |
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Location: MN | Dirt Esox - 8/10/2018 3:44 PM
I think littoral acres don't matter much at all when large populations of pelagic baitfish are present. Never understood that metric, seems arbitrary
Agreed. Also, even if we were only concerned with shallow, weeded areas, their definition of littoral doesn't make a lot of sense. They use depth < 15 ft as the definition of the littoral zone. On some lakes, the outside edge of the weeds is in 5-8 ft, while on others it may be 25-30 ft. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Keep in mind many systems in MN were originally stocked to establish a (possibly) partially self sustaining fishable population, not to create 'forever' numbers lakes teeming with 50s. Said populations matured at a normal rate, and peaked just before the average muskie angler figured out what was available. Those fish literally were, in comparison to today's pressure, unfished.
There were lots of adult fish in the 'trophy' class that had never seen a muskie lure, and as a result of the ensuing mad rush to MN and growing population of Muskie anglers, angling pressure increased steadily to the ridiculous it can be on some waters some days now.
I remember the original stocking on those waters very clearly, and the few anglers who found them a few years later when the first couple stocked year classes hit the low 40's. What has happened since is chronicled right here on MuskieFIRST in dozens of conversations, not the least of which was the 'it's the fish' debate.
Many held on to the idea that MN would forever kick out big numbers of big fish, and be the destination of all trophy muskie anglers everywhere well into the future.
What actually happened and is happening is exactly what was predicted in those conversations by some pretty well educated muskie management folks. Classic 'new reservoir' syndrome, as described by a couple of the best muskie fisheries managers in the world who had the somewhat short lived nerve to take on the general public and attempt to pass on some reasonable expectations.
These waters now offer established populations with decent year class distribution and trophy potential, are aging well all things considered, and are currently supported by stocking as is necessary. Given the average rate of angling mortality, it's good thing the fish are no longer suicidal and have adapted to the continuous pressure well.
Focus on just the muskie population to meet expectations of anglers who fished the lakes through the process isn't likely, especially considering social pressure to improve other game fish populations like walleye hit hard by overfishing, warming average water temps and the resulting changes in bass populations, and other factors. There's only so many fish to go around, and so many dollars to be spent. There are a few very dedicated folks who work hard to raise money, awareness, and even fish to help maintain levels at what we think is best. For the most part, the general audience here isn't even aware of those efforts.
Lots to think about, and far more complicated than most would think. One thing it's safe to predict right now; muskie angling pressure on some of those waters will drop off and long term, muskie fishing will get better.
Sidenote: I spend a lot of time fishing other species of trophy fish in Vermilion, and have an Aqua-Vi 700i mounted on my ride, have had one since they came out with the Multi-View.. drifting out of a bay for about 450 yards a couple years ago, we saw a dozen plus large muskies laying in the short weed cover in 9 to 11' that also held the 14 to 16" crappies. No one who went through in front of us reported seeing any muskies, until a friend went across the area and popped a 50 plus right in front of our third drift. Those fish were there the entire week.
There's still a few in that puddle.
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| sworrall - 8/10/2018 5:03 PM
Keep in mind many systems in MN were originally stocked to establish a (possibly) partially self sustaining fishable population, not to create 'forever' numbers lakes teeming with 50s.
Exactly what I was hinting at, Steve! Just trying to not offend people.
You can drop the mic after that post. |
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| IAJustin - 8/10/2018 3:51 PM
Is Muskie Fishing supposed to be easy? Didn’t I read a newspaper article in 2017 that at least 4 muskies 55” or larger were caught in 3 days? Wow!! Sure it’s a tough lake, but for a fish of a lifetime (to me that’s 55”+ ) one of the best places on earth!!! For me keep stocking V low density, I don’t go to V trying to catch 30 a week, I want 1 ..the right one and I like a challenge
Best post on this topic! Nice work! I think most people want spoon fed musky's.
Edited by Musky Face 8/10/2018 7:55 PM
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Location: MN | sworrall - 8/10/2018 4:03 PM
Keep in mind many systems in MN were originally stocked to establish a (possibly) partially self sustaining fishable population, not to create 'forever' numbers lakes teeming with 50s. Said populations matured at a normal rate, and peaked just before the average muskie angler figured out what was available. Those fish literally were, in comparison to today's pressure, unfished.
There were lots of adult fish in the 'trophy' class that had never seen a muskie lure, and as a result of the ensuing mad rush to MN and growing population of Muskie anglers, angling pressure increased steadily to the ridiculous it can be on some waters some days now.
I remember the original stocking on those waters very clearly, and the few anglers who found them a few years later when the first couple stocked year classes hit the low 40's. What has happened since is chronicled right here on MuskieFIRST in dozens of conversations, not the least of which was the 'it's the fish' debate.
Many held on to the idea that MN would forever kick out big numbers of big fish, and be the destination of all trophy muskie anglers everywhere well into the future.
What actually happened and is happening is exactly what was predicted in those conversations by some pretty well educated muskie management folks. Classic 'new reservoir' syndrome, as described by a couple of the best muskie fisheries managers in the world who had the somewhat short lived nerve to take on the general public and attempt to pass on some reasonable expectations.
These waters now offer established populations with decent year class distribution and trophy potential, are aging well all things considered, and are currently supported by stocking as is necessary. Given the average rate of angling mortality, it's good thing the fish are no longer suicidal and have adapted to the continuous pressure well.
Focus on just the muskie population to meet expectations of anglers who fished the lakes through the process isn't likely, especially considering social pressure to improve other game fish populations like walleye hit hard by overfishing, warming average water temps and the resulting changes in bass populations, and other factors. There's only so many fish to go around, and so many dollars to be spent. There are a few very dedicated folks who work hard to raise money, awareness, and even fish to help maintain levels at what we think is best. For the most part, the general audience here isn't even aware of those efforts.
Lots to think about, and far more complicated than most would think. One thing it's safe to predict right now; muskie angling pressure on some of those waters will drop off and long term, muskie fishing will get better.
I believe most of the people who are talking about the Vermilion stocking are well aware of what you have outlined here. I personally am not a huge stakeholder - I am just a guy who fishes in MN and Canada. I have fished Vermilion a limited amount, all in the last 2 years, with OK results for the time spent. I was never a part of the boom and have no expectations molded around that. The information I have conveyed is a result of background research when considering where to spend my time.
Let's be clear: there is a population decline that happens after the initial peak of a stocked fishery. The peak is what you have called 'new reservoir syndrome,' and the subsequent decline is due to recruitment suppression from the now existing older population - the big old fish stop the smaller ones from growing up. I've spoke with several fisheries people about this and the exact mechanism appears to be unclear - cannibalism, competition, etc are possible factors, but it is for sure a real phenomenon that happens in most lakes, and not just muskies - it's seen in other species such as walleyes as well. This has already been mentioned in this thread (Elk Lake was referenced).
This decline is currently being seen in many MN lakes. Even in lakes that are stocked at a high rate consistently over time, the population is decreasing over time - DL is one example. The timing right now is such that many MN lakes are in this phase - you tend to hear a lot of people complaining about how the fishing used to be so much better. I, and I think most people that look into this in detail, get that this is a fact of life when establishing a new stocked fishery.
Vermilion is a bit different. Yes, there was an initial peak and an expected decline. However, the thing that everyone is concerned about is the dramatic drop off in stocking. In the decade 1987-1996, when the stocking was started, 52,599 fingerlings were stocked - that's 1.34 fingerlings/acre over the decade, a relatively modest stocking rate (less than 1/3 of DL and the Mad Chain lake examples). 10 years after that, the fishing was pretty good by most reports, but of course, that's biased a bit by the new reservoir syndrome. The point of discussion is the dramatic drop off in stocking that followed. From 2004-2013, that rate was 0.46 fingerlings/acre. The rate decreased by a factor of 3, from an already modest rate. Other fisheries have not seen this. Why cut the input to V during a time when recruitment rate was already expected to take a hit? Presumably they expected natural reproduction to take hold, but that does not seem to be the case. It seems that the new plan has adjusted for this and is bumping the stocking up a little, although not to the initial levels. Hopefully this will help bring up the population in the future. |
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Location: Eagan, MN | People keep saying V is a go-to destination for the fish of a lifetime, though most complain she is on a steep downhill slide - and rightfully so. Meanwhile, Bret Alexander mentioned on national TV that he put 68 fish over 50” in his boat last year on Green Bay. Not 68 muskies; 68 over 50. The two bodies of water aren’t even comparable in terms of big fish productivity right now. Anyone searching for the fish of a lifetime would do way better going to other waters. There must be something else that is attracting fishermen to Vermilion.
As for the pressure on V, it has changed the fishery. What mature fish remain don’t act like they used to in a lot of ways. They don’t use key spots like in years past and when they do it’s for shorter durations and far fewer fish. They also seem to hold further off shore now and deeper than they once did. Many of the largest fish have learned avoidance behaviors or have become virtually uncatchable. If it’s a musky challenge you want, V will give it to you - and she will usually win. More these days that she is in decline as a musky fishery.
Edited by BrianF. 8/11/2018 12:35 AM
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'I believe most of the people who are talking about the Vermilion stocking are well aware of what you have outlined here.'
I, and I think most people that look into this in detail, get that this is a fact of life when establishing a new stocked fishery.
I honestly don't believe that at all.
Many people actually think the magic answer is to get back to the stocking levels when the purpose was to establish the fishery coupled with the fact there was near zero pressure during much of that phase. The question is, what IS Vermilion being managed for, big picture, and the answer may not be what we as muskie addicts want to hear. My point is comparing what is right now to the peak when the system was 'discovered' and demanding the lake be returned to new reservoir state or even assuming it can is not realistic and will not happen regardless of what happens into the future for the muskie management plan there. The masses appear, what happens with literally thousands of times the pressure when the system was in development stages as a muskie fishery happens, and yet we have what we have despite that. I'm saying it's still pretty impressive, and it will get better, just not to where it was ever again. To the Green Bay fishery, expect that to do one of two things, what happened to Vermilion since the stocking began to something less distressful to the trophy anglers hitting that water due to the fact it's what it is as far as acres, NR, biomass, prey species, etc with little resort based pressure to support. The weather can save a ton of fish on the bay for a total of weeks when added up over a season. Vermilion doesn't have that safety valve.
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