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| I've read statements from many people suggesting to focus most of your casts upstream, upstream at an angle, or perpendicualr to flow. The explanation I see most often is that musky's prey typically come at them from upstream, so casting upstream better imitates that. I don't really agree with that, but that's beside the point.
So this question is really for the river rats. Please explain why casting upstream is better. Or, backing up, do you really, really believe that in the first place? |
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Posts: 723
| for years I struggled with catching fish on rivers where I knew they were sitting tight.
Once I started steelhead fishing, it opened my eyes to really having to place a cast precisely to get the fish to eat.
When you actually see your quarry, and how it ignores your offerings cast after cast until you put it in the exact spot that fish wants it for it to actually engulf it.
So, taking what I learned from steelhead, and applying it to the musky in current, I have found my numbers have gone up considerable by 1) not bringing a bait in from behind a fish facing upstream, which in most cases can spook them if the bait is coming in at the same level as the fish. Topwaters not so much, but other baits, yes...
If the fish is pointed in an upstream manner, which almost all are in higher current situations, or they're hiding behind some sort of obstruction, they're still focused on what is ahead or above them, and somewhat off to the sides of them.
Yes they can feel whats coming behind them, but like I said, bring a bait in at the same level of a fish from behind,
it's not going to sit there and tolerate it. atleast from my experience they don't.
I have seen many instances where the first couple baits thru the area have produced nothing, until the boat has floated down past the area, and I (being last in the boat) fire a cast upstream to the same spot that just received 20 casts, only to have the bait plowed hard.... that isn't just luck. It's that fish not wanting to move out of it's comfort spot to run down something it's not sure it wants. But put that cast in it's face, give it a milli-second to react to it. I'm betting I know why it ate...
I even have more fish chase stuff down from casting and bringing the bait back with the current vs. against the flow.
I feel you're presenting to more fish's faces that way, hence the more they're apt to move from a distance away.
I don't apply the same logic to deeper water, as in trolling upstream vs down, or same with casting in water deeper than 10 ft.
It's still a constant discussion of fishing against or with the current between my friends and I.
somedays I feel it's the mood of the fish as to why they eat from only 1 direction vs both.
for instance, if we are trolling, and catching fish going with the current that day, they typically all come from the same direction.
same goes for being on a lake with heavy winds, trolling against the waves is rather counter productive, but going with the waves we score fish. why? cause they're facing into the flow coming into their face...
So, please explain why you disagree with casting upstream/perpendicular to current, and prefer to bring the bait against the current so I can better understand how I am missing out.  I have not caught many at all that way.
also, I guess it would matter a lot in what CFS we're categorizing "rivers" into.
I know guys that fish white water rapids and guys that fish slow "lazy rivers"
they do not act the same in both situations IMO.
Edited by dogboy 7/12/2016 12:37 PM
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Location: SE Wisconsin | All fish face into the current when they're holding, but of course they will turn and swim downstream to travel or reposition, but they always turn back around to face upstream to hold. It's a challenge to get a lure to do its job when you cast upstream and work it back with the current, which is why casting cross-current makes the most sense. Fish that are holding and facing upstream see the forage coming at them and then position to eat it or chase it. Casting across the current allows that bait to work the way it was designed to do and gives holding fish an easier opportunity to chase it down and eat it.
I think casting downstream and working back up against the current is ineffective in many (not all) cases because a fish facing upstream and holding may not see the bait in time as it goes past.
Make sense? |
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| dogboy, Great start to the discussion, thank you very much.
First to answer your question. I don't think the bait coming downstream is the most, or i should say the ONLY, accurate imitation of real food. Bait faces upstream, just like muskies. bait travels upstream too. If muskies only ate dead animals drifting downstream with the current, then I could appreciate wanting to imitate that all the time. But that's not the case.
Also, while throwing prop baits or bucktails upstream in any appreciable current you really need to burn them FAST to get good prop or blade rotation. Maybe that's a great thing, but it definitely limits your presentation speed to fast or faster. Slow is not an option.
Now I can't argue with your experiences, and I've read from many others similar things. I take some of that advice with a grain of salt because many (most?) people just regurgitate what they've read or heard and don't actually have the experience to back it up. You, however, have paid attention in your extensive river fishing and your experience supports your words. I was hoping you'd be one to respond, and there are a couple more guys I hope will post.
I/we pretty much always cast downstream at an angle or perpendicular to flow, but also often cast back upstream toward the "good spots". I haven't noticed any higher catch/follow rates on the upstream casts. In fact most catches I think through have been on downstream or cross-stream casts, but like I said, that's how I cast most often.
But there have been days when we've not even SEEN a fish for a long period of time, like 4 - 8 hours, during conditions that should be fine or even great. So they were obviously negative, BUT I've often wondered if I've left something on the table. Maybe, like you've experienced, that bait needs to come AT their face, right close, in order to get the reaction.
as far as CFS the rivers I've fished can be from 100 to 10,000 but typically we're talking 1000 or less. and the speed in most areas I fish ranges from gentle ripples (maybe 2 ft/sec) down to lazy, even static in pools. For the record I've caught or seen exactly zero muskies in shallow, fast-moving areas that others tend to like so much. Not white water, but the shallow ripples like 1 - 3 ft deep, moderately fast flow. That's another one of those things that I read [that people love] but I can't relate to. |
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| Thank you too Sam. yeah it makes sense.
Another thing about casting downstream is this allows us to hit spots before the boat passes within just a few feet of them. The rivers are less than a cast wide at many spots. Plus, casting downstream on a drift means you're the first bait to/through the spot. That's probably the main reason we do it...  |
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Location: Yahara River Chain | All fish face into the current when they're holding is so true, If a noise or bait approaches from behind them it may startle them at first. Imagine something making a noise behind you while sitting looking forward.
As for throwing prop baits or bucktails upstream in any appreciable current you really need to burn them FAST to get good prop or blade rotation, if throwing the bait upstream, you better have the best bait like Colorado blades rather than willows, but you have to realize that a fish will pick up the bait while its coming at them and they can intersect it so that they don't have to expend a lots of energy chasing it down. Also they can move downstream rather quickly to over take a bait in short order.
And of course these are not hard rules as you can catch them throw up, down side way, etc.
Edited by muskie! nut 7/12/2016 1:36 PM
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Posts: 723
| My bait selection isn't based too much off of bucktails in current. but I have caught a couple fish on them, spinnerbaits work better IMO, I do agree that bringing the bait down with the current is a faster ordeal, so adding some angle to it, atleast 20deg up to a 90 is probably as far as I go. I use more gliders, jerks, topwater, lift and fall presentations or cranks with buoyancy. so when I am pausing those baits, it is giving them a little bit more time to react.
My favorite is probably a WTD topper worked across the current at a slight angle coming down stream.
I am by no means an expert at all, my river fishing is lacking big time, as I only target them a couple few times a year for seasonal migrations/spawning/spring to summer/summer to fall transitions.
I'm trying to change that tho.
But having fished them a good amount, have not had the success you've had bringing the bait back up against the current.
The big fish have almost always eaten from the angles I've mentioned. I've seen very hot fish travel from 30 ft away to hit a topwater that was cast nowhere near the fishs holding spot. So mood really depicts what they're willing to do.
I would love to learn the other side of things as what works for me doesn't always work for others, and vice versa.
I will say that pulling certain baits against the current has made them look like struggling meal tickets, but rarely do they get eaten when I think they should.
and... you make a great point about food floating downstream in a "dead" fashion. well, given I learned from steelhead fishing, I haven't separated that correlation yet. lol I view ski's as opportunistic feeders as most do. and if they can be lazy, staying in one spot, and have a meal fed to them, they'd do so on a regular basis.
but then again, with all my knowledge, I still walk off the water scratching my head like you mentioned. what did we leave on the table?
oh and the rivers I fish are larger than a cast or 2 wide. so we don't worry too much about burning the spot by floating past it. If I was faced with a small stream, I'm probably going your route.
Edited by dogboy 7/12/2016 1:34 PM
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| I think this would be a good one for REEFHAWG to give some insight...
Any of those boys from the WI river area are a wealth of knowledge in current fishing. |
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| dogboy - 7/12/2016 1:43 PM
I think this would be a good one for REEFHAWG to give some insight...
Any of those boys from the WI river area are a wealth of knowledge in current fishing.
Bingo. |
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Posts: 4343
Location: Smith Creek | I don't know much about the WI River, but in the Chip and Flambeau you cast upstream or perpendicular to the flow with your bait slowly going downstream with the current.
Pretty much everyone else has mentioned the reasons. Muskies are lazy. They don't want to pursue upstream if they don't have to.
As for baits, bucktails are great on lakes, i don't use them on rivers. Sink too fast, grass gets tangled in the blades, etc.
I like streamers or twitch baits or jigs or jerkbaits, something that gets through the grass or looks tasty with a little salad stuck to it. |
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| muskie! nut - 7/12/2016 1:22 PM
All fish face into the current when they're holding is so true, If a noise or bait approaches from behind them it may startle them at first. Imagine something making a noise behind you while sitting looking forward.
I can imagine that, and it has happened many times in hunting (ducks/deer). Food approaches me from behind - I turn around and shoot it. Like a musky would, I imagine
muskie! nut - 7/12/2016 1:22 PM
but you have to realize that a fish will pick up the bait while its coming at them and they can intersect it so that they don't have to expend a lots of energy chasing it down. Also they can move downstream rather quickly to over take a bait in short order.
Good point.
Through this discussion I'm inspired to throw back up current at spots I've passed, or even approach some stuff from downstream, slowly motoring up and fishing that direction. |
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Location: Smith Creek | sound travels downstream better too so fishing upstream is a bit sneakier.
ok that might not be true but it sounds good.
Edited by Flambeauski 7/12/2016 4:24 PM
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Location: The desert | Some depends on how fast the current is. Back when I fished the WI river below the dams I found it to be much better fishing by casting way upstream and working down stream. The current was generally stronger there than other sections of River. In lesser current I think you can do a bit of both effectively. But in faster current I'd be casting upstream and allowing the current to bring the bait back to me. |
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| What has been mentioned is an accurate reality in my experience. While it may or may not be due to a fish's preference, a lot in my experience had to do with bait selection and control. The jerk and crank baits we typically use just plain work better with the current. And when in heavy current typical of the Wis River stretches I fish will get "blown" to the shore when casting down stream and retrieving up stream. Hard to control and hit the sweet spot of the current breaks where as mentioned fish will not move far to eat from. This is apparent by fact the very rare to see follows- just attacks and misses or hook up. It is very typical to 30 sec later to cast to same spot and hook up on same fish. The spots they like they like.
Exception to the typical cast upstream is in situation fishing large eddies or pools. This is a situation where there is still current but a clock wise cast progression will do wonders. It is not uncommon to spend 15-20min or more casting one of these large pools. This is an area of the "current" where I feel they are "prowling" they heavy current stuff is more ambush feeding. These pool areas can be effectively fished with more conventional "lake" baits -blades and TW. |
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Location: central Wisconsin | I live a couple miles from the WI river and Petenwell flowage. I look for spots between the current flow and the slack water. If you were wading a river that would be where the bottom changes from clean swept gravel to muck.
I cast perpendicular typically and let the current move the bait towards where I want it to go. Be it a stump, a cut into a bank, boulders, etc. My largest river fish last year was in a tiny cut in the bank tucked in behind a huge fallen tree. Caught on a Slammer.
Over the last thirty years I have caught fish on cranks, (baby shallowraiders, slammers) topwaters, (creeper, hawg wobbler) and bucktails, (inhaler, bucher 700, mepps) probably very even numbers.
All that being said, I have caught a ton of walleyes trolling upriver very slowly. |
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Location: North St. Paul, MN | My $0.02 - it's all current or flow dependent. If it's moderate to slow, I don't think current direction is the ultimate factor...mood is. Now, if they're in fast current, face into it, I've seen the direction of the bait making a difference.
I also believe on foot vs. boat is a factor. On foot, you can change angles and throw multiple casts (and baits) at one fishy looking spot. From a boat you're at the mercy of the current in a lot of situations.
Fun topic. I've spent the last seven years strictly on rivers and have learned a ton and enjoy it a heck of a lot more than lake fishing. |
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Location: Smith Creek | Jeff78 - 7/12/2016 5:50 PM
I have caught a ton of walleyes trolling upriver very slowly.
Walleyes are definitely an exception to the upstream rule. |
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Posts: 81
| <p>When looking at cast directions in a river you must also look at boat speed. Remember, you boat is moving faster while casting unlike a lake. At first I caught more fish casting back up river, but when I slowed my boat speed I caught more fish casting down river. I slow my boat with a drift chain(dragging a heavy chain or window weight off the bow of the boat). This allows my bait to stay in those side eddies longer because my boat isnt floating past the spot. Also it allows me to throw more casts to a spot, at more angles. Also, I realized there are eddies on the bottom of the river, even in the middle of what appears to be fast current. And yes there are big fish there! However, I only seem to catch those fish in those eddies in the middle casting downstream. I believe my bait is staying in there zone longer due to heavier current and my slow drift speed.</p><p> I like using a chain because it gets hung up less on rocks and trees and seems to drag over stuff better. Sometimes have a few different lengths for different speeds. Lastly always drag off the bow of the boat because if you drag off the transom and the chain gets stuck your boat will get swamped with water and you might be swimming! I fish small and medium size rivers with moderate current.</p>
Edited by NCmusky 7/13/2016 10:22 AM
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Location: oswego, il | ^^^ this. Muskies can expend surprising little energy in fast current. Like they aren't even moving. Bait fish fighting against the current is vulnerability, predators react to vulnerability. |
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Location: north central wisconsin | Flambeauski - 7/12/2016 7:16 PM
Jeff78 - 7/12/2016 5:50 PM
I have caught a ton of walleyes trolling upriver very slowly.
Walleyes are definitely an exception to the upstream rule.
Walleyes are not an exception to this rule, relatively speaking, particularly when similar presentations are imparted. Location as it relates to that section or 'type' can be relative terms but is 'the' key(for me)with local depth a large part of the equation. Lure depth, speed, and(very very importantly) lure type and action for the situation, are big factors. Current speed and a fishes tendency to slip back vs turning around to move(depending on depth and seasonal/daily movements) , can actually play a role in the type of food/action triggers at that time. Back to the river.
Edited by Reef Hawg 7/14/2016 7:49 AM
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Location: The desert | jaultman - 7/12/2016 1:14 PM
Also, while throwing prop baits or bucktails upstream in any appreciable current you really need to burn them FAST to get good prop or blade rotation. Maybe that's a great thing, but it definitely limits your presentation speed to fast or faster. Slow is not an option.
I'm going to disagree here, at least in respect to prop baits. You're limiting your presentation. Prop baits CAN be worked slow, and I'll advocate for it. Especially in fast/whitewater current. Let the fish tell you how a bait should be worked, don't try and decide for them because of how you think the bait should be worked.
I caught a good number of fish just letting the current work a prop bait. I watched lots of guys adjust how they worked a prop bait after my success. They were retrieving as you describe, trying to get that pop from the prop that we all believe it should do. I can't give you any logical reason as to what made me slow my retrieve of a prop bait in fast current (I could pretend to be some sort of genius....) but for whatever reason, I did and the results were quite good. My basic approach was similar to fly fishing and trying to keep my line off the water and allowing the bait to present as "naturally" as it could. I just picked up slack as the bait traveled down the river. You'll also learn a lot about the way the water flows. You'll find eddies and breaks that you didn't notice right away. The prop will still spin, but not as we normally expect it.
Some of this is spot dependent, as I was right below a dam that had good flow most of the time. Fish were plentiful (that always helps!) and they were there to feed. But my basic point is not to limit your presentation because of how you think the bait should look. You may just be limiting your action by doing so. |
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Location: Minocqua, WI | jaultman - 7/12/2016 12:07 PM
I've read statements from many people suggesting to focus most of your casts upstream, upstream at an angle, or perpendicualr to flow. The explanation I see most often is that musky's prey typically come at them from upstream, so casting upstream better imitates that. I don't really agree with that, but that's beside the point.
So this question is really for the river rats. Please explain why casting upstream is better. Or, backing up, do you really, really believe that in the first place?
I personally wouldn't read too much into this and don't buy it. River fishing for muskies breaks all rules and I've caught fish that could care less about casting and retrieving angles. Caught from upstream side, downstream side, sideways, etc. On small to medium flows, just don't spook them. Muskies will come at you from all directions; some hungry, others not so much, but a decent number of them will try.
If muskies have been located and are holding in specific spots, then it be good to work the area from all angles in order for them to see the bait and trigger a response.
Surface prop baits and gliders are my river fish finders.
Edited by AndrewR 7/15/2016 7:31 PM
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