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Location: Minocqua, WI | Jerry, in what state do you currently reside and how many days a year do you log on WI waters? |
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Posts: 32924
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Geez.
I am on the fence on this one. I have talked to a couple folks from the DNR recently who do NOT want the trolling proposal passed. Not top dawgs, but none the less....
Will trolling in Vilas and Oneida change the face of fishing up here? Yes, I think so. Will I be occasionally annoyed at trollers pulling boards a long way from the boat on lakes that are tiny? Yes, I think so. Is the sky falling? No, I don't think so.
Logic has a part in the discussion...it has to. What point is there in arguing that someone might make a different choice if that choice is not the one on the table? To answer the question anyway, I'd vote for one line in the soft water and two on the ice, but that's me and that isn't an option. I'd vote for trolling up here if it was one line or even two per angler, but that isn't an option. I don't think there will be a major impact on Muskie populations here either way. I do think it will not be pretty on Julia or George when there's 5 boats out there with 9 lines out trolling cranks for 'eyes at 1.5 mph and three trolling muskies, there won't be much water uncovered by a pathway of boards and folks will get testy, I see that on freaking Winnebago, for cripes sake. I am absolutely certain that will happen occasionally. I still don't know which way my vote will go, but I do know my son will vote no.
And I'd vote for a 15 bag of panfish, only 10 of which can be crappies.
I do think more muskies will be caught by walleye anglers. Is that bad? Maybe...maybe not. I KNOW if the law passes I won't troll for muskies much at all, but will pull spinners for 'eyes from time to time and really enjoy it. I do know the 'eye bag may be 1 or even zero on some water this Spring at this rate. That is a buzz kill.
I do know the reason the law was changed last time is because it wasn't put into place to allow power trolling muskies.
And I do know I'm glad I like to fish bass and panfish. And that I know some out of the way muskie water.
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Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | One line per angler would be easier to stomach, but I think I would still vote no.
I agree with what Steve said above! |
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| WI Duck Guide - 3/11/2013 11:43 PM
Jerry, in what state do you currently reside and how many days a year do you log on WI waters?
Not sure this is relevant, I don't think you need to reside or fish WI a certain amount to vote. It would seem none of us are fish biologist or at least not good ones based on this thread. Will be interesting to see the results. BR |
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Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | BenR - 3/12/2013 7:22 AM
WI Duck Guide - 3/11/2013 11:43 PM
Jerry, in what state do you currently reside and how many days a year do you log on WI waters?
Not sure this is relevant, I don't think you need to reside or fish WI a certain amount to vote. It would seem none of us are fish biologist or at least not good ones based on this thread. Will be interesting to see the results. BR
Pretty sure the question was posed to get a feel for if Jerry is in-tune with what the fishing, and ethics, are currently for the area in question. I would have to agree with the asking of the question as if you are not familiar with the area, and how anglers currently conduct themselves, then I am not sure you can argue it will not be a big deal in the area. No offense to Jerry or anyone else that may not fish the area but I do hold the opinion of guys like J. Sloan much higher than yours as I know he spends time in the area.
Also if you don’t fish walleye or care about them I don’t respect your opinion much as you need to look at the whole picture, and not just the small world of musky fishing. It’s pretty hard to understand where someone is coming from if you don’t have the same experiences as that person. So if you don’t fish the area how can you understand and be empathetic to what is being discussed?
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| CiscoKid - 3/12/2013 7:36 AM
BenR - 3/12/2013 7:22 AM
WI Duck Guide - 3/11/2013 11:43 PM
Jerry, in what state do you currently reside and how many days a year do you log on WI waters?
Not sure this is relevant, I don't think you need to reside or fish WI a certain amount to vote. It would seem none of us are fish biologist or at least not good ones based on this thread. Will be interesting to see the results. BR
Pretty sure the question was posed to get a feel for if Jerry is in-tune with what the fishing, and ethics, are currently for the area in question. I would have to agree with the asking of the question as if you are not familiar with the area, and how anglers currently conduct themselves, then I am not sure you can argue it will not be a big deal in the area. No offense to Jerry or anyone else that may not fish the area but I do hold the opinion of guys like J. Sloan much higher than yours as I know he spends time in the area.
Also if you don’t fish walleye or care about them I don’t respect your opinion much as you need to look at the whole picture, and not just the small world of musky fishing. It’s pretty hard to understand where someone is coming from if you don’t have the same experiences as that person. So if you don’t fish the area how can you understand and be empathetic to what is being discussed?
Many of us to fish it, but no longer do. It is not hard to understand the culture in the area at all and just reading the thread reenforces much of this. You can point to walleye and other topics, but this is a muskie board and many people are going to vote based on their preference and that of the WDNR. Also if take a look at some of the walleye boards and other muskie boards, outside of the vilas vocal few there does not seem to be too much opposition to trolling in the area, will be interesting to see how the vote turns out. BR |
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Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Many of us to fish it, but no longer do.
Maybe that is why the fishing is continually getting better? Less pressure and less delayed mortality?  |
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| CiscoKid - 3/12/2013 7:49 AM
Many of us to fish it, but no longer do.
Maybe that is why the fishing is continually getting better? Less pressure and less delayed mortality? ; )
Could be Travis, but I think, thanks to your internet pro influence I am becoming at least passable when it comes to muskie fishing. BR |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | Jerry the guys in New York need an expert to come in and let em know what they need to do ...
http://muskie.outdoorsfirst.com/board/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=82... |
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Location: Minocqua, WI | Exactly Travis... If you want to tell me all about OUR HOME and OUR FISHERY... maybe you need to spend some time on OUR waters... I logged around 100 days on these waters for muskies this season alone and have been fishing the area in some capacity for the past 20 years... Guys like J. Sloan and a host of others have forgotten more about these waters than the weekend warriors and those who "use to fish it" will ever know. The fact is, if you are not in tune with this fishery, you have no reason to object and attempt to nullify the legitimate concerns of those who have based their lives around it. |
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Location: Minocqua, WI | And for the record, one line trolling would be the way to solve this issue and it should have a seasonal restriction to avoid mortality when fish are deep and water temps are higher. The bait shops here dont even sell suckers for muskies until fall and if your "bringing your own" your breaking the law anyway. However, as Steve said, we have to go with the options that are on the table... Its 3 line trolling or no change this time around. |
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| A few of the voices on here get paid to use a public water to their benefit. The hypocracy of getting paid by using a public resource and then claiming it at "ours" is classic. My guess by WI Duck Guide, he probably also guides fishing on these lakes. I appreciate J. Sloan's thoughts on this topic, they seem well thought out. BR |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | jason is getting old and just too tired and sore to row all day long ... his opinion is jaded |
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Location: 31 | I have had a Wisconsin fishing license every year for the past 30+ years and averaged between 35 and 40 full days on Wisconsin waters the last two years. The most days I have ever spent on the water in a year muskie fishing is just over 60, but that was mostly in Canada on Lake of the Woods (1989). Nowadays, mainly due to elbow problems (from fishing) I can no longer cast all day and through default reluctantly consider myself a troller… although casting is my first love.
Now with that out of the way, even though one line per angler is not on the table I thought it was a pertinent question considering how much the opposition thought that three line trolling would devastate the fishery. In my humble opinion, three lines is three lines and I thought that it was a fair comparison for the months of September-October-November. I'm no expert in conservation... but Wisconsin's big gun biologists (on record) mutually agree it will not harm the fishery. My point of view stands on its own merit and whether I fish a lot or a little in Wisconsin should not add or subtract from the points that were made. Like I said; most here are pretty well entrenched anyway, so we'll see what happens on April 8.
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Location: Minocqua, WI | I do guide up here and the OUR i was referring to is not guides... not by a long shot. It is ALL of the fishermen that use these lakes. By the way, if this passes and you think trolling wont be implemented by many guides both local and non-local, you are sadly mistaken. I've said all i have to say on this. Let the chips fall where they may but the bottom line is, such a broad legalization of trolling will have a negative impact in the long term. It has in the past and it will in the future. |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | Jerry Newman - 3/12/2013 10:00 AM
I can no longer cast all day and through default reluctantly consider myself a troller… although casting is my first love.
I thought that it was a fair comparison for the months of September-October-November.
- you can get a permit
- i thought the 3-line sucker fishing was pretty typical for you in the summer??
if the vote passes i'll have to buy a new kicker, so i'm hoping it doesn't pass cuz i could use the money for other things.
is travis joining us for pizza jerry? |
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Posts: 581
| Travis, Sled, WI Duck Guide, etc.,
With all due respect, the problem with the argument that 3-line trolling will harm the fishery is that it's simply not supported by any data whatsoever. You present it as "fact", but your argument is entirely based on assumption and speculation.
By my count, 3-line motor trolling is allowed and has been occurring for years on at least 192 muskie lakes in our state, from waters in Southern Wisconsin, on all the way up to Bayfield County. Of those 192 lakes, 147 are less than 1,000 acres in size. Of those 147 that are less than 1,000 acres in size, 122 are less than 500 acres in size. Big lakes, small lakes, shallow weedy lakes, big deep/clear lakes, small deep/clear lakes, lakes with pelagic baitfish, etc. Walleye are also present in the vast majority of these same lakes. I am 100% certain that muskies will suspend over open water in all of these lakes, and are susceptible to trolling techniques.
The WDNR manages these lakes and has not found any evidence of any harm to the fisheries of these trolling lakes, as compared to non-trolling lakes, and further, there is no evidence of user conflict on trolling lakes vs. non-trolling lakes, regardless of size.
In an earlier thread, I posted a link to a 1996 WDNR study that evaluated fish populations in ceded territories. I'm not going to re-read it, but if memory serves, the data used in the study was not limited solely to creel surveys, but the cited creel survey data included the previous 5 years--during the time and on lakes where backtrolling was allowed...and the study showed that neither catch rate nor harvest rate for muskies/walleyes was significantly increased during the time period that backtrolling was allowed, as compared to when trolling was again restricted. Other data cited by the WDNR muskie team suggests that Vilas County lakes were healthier than ever during the years after backtrolling was disallowed, (suggesting no harm to the fisheries from backtrolling).
So, there is data available to evaluate whether 3-line motor trolling might negatively affect Vilas County fisheries. The great majority of data used by the WDNR to reach its conclusions is scientifically-accepted within the field of fisheries biology, and that data suggests that concerns over harm to the fisheries, while perhaps well-intentioned, are misplaced.
As Jerry says, everyone here seems pretty entrenched. I'm not interested in going around and around on this topic. I will say that I certainly respect the differing viewpoints here and as Steve says, regardless of what happens, either way the "sky isn't going to fall".
Cheers. |
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Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Matt et al., this simply boils down to this. Those for trolling want it because they want to run suckers and cast and not worry about a ticket. They also want to capitalize on the fisheries. Those against either don’t want it in fear of fisheries being damaged, or are afraid of the increased pressure. While I see a big difference in the two ways of thinking others do not. Thus the opinions on here. I respect the Yes side as the yes side needs to respect the No side. You and others are correct that it doesn’t matter what those against say as the “Yes” crowd will never see the other side, and anything the “yes” crowd says will not convince the “no” crowd. Am I wrong to disagree with it because I am all for protecting a resource? Not at all. Are you and others wrong because you want more opportunities? Not at all. This is just like a size limit debate where some always want higher length limits, and then the opposite crowd doesn’t feel higher length limits are best for some fisheries. |
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Posts: 189
Location: Barrington, Il | Steve,
Why does your son want to vote No? Is it jsut user conflicts? |
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Posts: 32924
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | He worked for the DNR for 12 years. He spawned and stocked muskies and walleyes for the DNR out of Woodruff for 4 years. He feels additional fish handling and post release mortality of muskies and additional harvest pressure on larger walleyes on some already stressed walleye fisheries isn't going to be a positive, especially in light of the limited budgets and reduced stocking from what people here were accustomed to in years past. Numbers of fish per acre are down, stocking is down, and...harvest isn't.
He really likes trolling, but feels that CPR is not yet where it needs to be yet to protect some of the more fragile fisheries, especially if they are not top priority listed for stocking in the near future.
He creeled during the winter for Treaty ( a very important program funded and run in cooperation with the WIDNR and GLIFWC) on many lakes, and tells me VERY few walleyes are released if they are legal size. His experience with backtrolling up here makes him believe more pressure will result and more of the larger fish will be caught and kept, bad for lakes that will not be stocked because there simply are not enough resources to get them all maintained as well as anglers would like. It's an added technology to what's already stressing some of the fisheries, so it worries him.
That said, he also wanted me to say he feels the sky won't fall if trolling passes.
He did say that the DNR budget needs to get a boost; soon.
By the way, Keith now works for OFM full time. |
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Posts: 20248
Location: oswego, il | there is a tv show that I like alot and have been watching for years and will continue to watch. the show has a fishing contest and they show the winners for each week. most weeks the obviosly kept fish seem to be more numerous than the ones that appearing like they will be released. based on the contest and its tag by the host for catch and release I would say this is probably a pretty good barometer for where catch and release fishing is for the state of wisconsin. |
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| I think it would be nice if a distinction could be made between "trolling" crank baits and such vs sucker fishing and drifting along at the typical .2 to.6 mph to cover a weed edge or break. I have encountered what I believe to be "anti-sucker" fisherman telling me that I was trolling when in fact the 100 yards of water and weeds I was covering took 20 to 30 minutes just because they don't like sucker fishing. Does position fishing account for a situation where you are barely moving but then you have to turn the boat quickly before your sucker buries itself in some tall weeds. Also there are times when the suckers themselves will swim over .6 mph and i want to use the trolling motor to keep them away from the boat. Is it trolling when the bait is swimming faster than the boat? |
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Posts: 285
Location: NE Wisconsin | Maybe, now that the fishermen of Vilas and Oneida have spoken, the wardens will start to enforce the no-trolling law. Trolling is trolling no matter if you are trolling live or artificial baits. I hope there is strict enforcement this fall. I for one, will have my cell phone. |
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| We just spent 4 pages discussing a rule that supposedly doesn't have any gray area....with anecdotal evidence and supporting stories on both sides of the "I have/have not been or seen someone ticketed."
Sure glad we got all that cleared up.
-Eric |
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Posts: 8825
| I'd be willing to bet those who were ticketed knew exactly what they were doing. |
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Posts: 139
| KrazyK - 3/7/2013 8:44 PM
I fished with Greg Bohn (guide) who many years ago was guiding two undercover DNR officers and was row trolling when he hooked a fish. As one of the men/officers brought the fish in he repositioned the boat with his trolling motor to avoid runing aground. He still had one line out and never thought twice about it. At the end of the day he was paid and tipped well. Several days later he was ticketed for motor trolling and after several thousands of dollars in legal fees beat the case. It was sad to see such a great and honest fisherman dragged though the B.S. and because of it he quit guiding in Wisconsin. I quess it doesn't matter what you think because if they're gunning for you you don't stand a chance.
i hear stuff like this all the time. and then we have some that WANT more wardens. No thanks we can police ourselves thank you.
I was told by a warden that if you trolling motor is in the water and you have a sucker out, they can ticket you. So much for consistency. |
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| Those who were ticketed? Who was that again. Not one muskiefirst.com member who is willing to admit it. Interesting. |
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Location: 31 | Guest - 5/1/2013 7:34 AM Those who were ticketed? Who was that again. Not one muskiefirst.com member who is willing to admit it. Interesting. This thread does a good job of demonstrating the confusion with that antiquated position fishing/no trolling law, I don't think it matters who has been ticketed.
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Location: 31 | jonnysled - 3/12/2013 10:28 AM Jerry Newman - 3/12/2013 10:00 AM I can no longer cast all day and through default reluctantly consider myself a troller… although casting is my first love. I thought that it was a fair comparison for the months of September-October-November. - you can get a permit - i thought the 3-line sucker fishing was pretty typical for you in the summer?? if the vote passes i'll have to buy a new kicker, so i'm hoping it doesn't pass cuz i could use the money for other things. is travis joining us for pizza jerry? I don’t want a permit! I'm not going to risk getting hassled by game warden, or for that matter other anglers on the water (and you know that would happen).
I never said fishing with suckers in the summer was typical either, I even said I no longer use live bait. However, back when I used live bait I distinctly remember June was normally a good month. Further, I was watching some of my old DVR recordings over the weekend and on The Next Bite show, Pete Maina was using suckers last August. I see very (if any) little difference between somebody trolling with 3 rods, and somebody casting with two suckers out. |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | i believe that is my all-time favorite post ... thanks jerry. |
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