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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | The mud marl transition IS structure.
Before some of you pups (Not Sled or JS) were out of short pants, Jim Cairnes, the McBride Bros, and a few other anglers from the Illinois 'brain trust' figured out the transition lines coupled with other factors. I spent quite a bit of time back in my full time guiding days introducing these guys to N WI waters off the beaten path and on. Jim was a master...one of the best I have ever met at figuring out deep muskies and bass when there were no graphs at all...just flashers.
Jimmy lost a long battle with cancer last winter. I miss that guy.
On many of the lakes up here creature fishing means 'bombing the depths' a good portion of the year, with some definite preferences toward specific structural elements. A deep water largemouth guy would read what's been posted here and say...'yep'.
I still try to hit Pelican when the conditions are right and toss creatures on the soft/hard bottom line in the funnels. After all, the creature was the forerunner to today's big plastics; only difference was size and the fact the jig is on the outside of the lure. The fish are not on the bottom out there...look to the last structural break and fish 3' above that depth.
I've been using my Aqua-Vu Micro to look at the deep transition lines and structural elements I've been fishing for 35 years. I have been very surprised. |
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Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | No going back to the start Sled someone was asking how to go about getting started in deep water fishing, and what our tactics are.
JS I agree with you in the use of icons/waypoints in that situation. I thought I mentioned it early, but maybe I didn’t and thought I did as this isn’t the first suspended fishing thread I have posted info on. When I am talking about talking suspended fish I am talking about smaller waters for the most part. Say under 3000 acres, and for me under 1000 acres is preferred. So when it comes to trollers out in that vast water of say 10, 000 acres it makes sense to lay down some icons. It is not as hard to cover water and find the “sweet spots” on small waters. Sweet spots you don’t need a GPS to get you to fish it again.
Steve what depth are you talking about fishing your creatures in? Also how could Jim be a master at deep water…he didn’t have a GPS to tell him where he needed to be.
I am curious to know how Gelb ever boated big muskies prior to the advent of GPS, and to know if he uses one for marking fish contacts in the open currently.
Icons/waypoints in the open. You catch a fish on the end of a bomb cast, and mark the fish once you have it in the net. Keep in mind you are now off the “spot”. You continue to do this for the year. The following year, or even later that fall you have 10 waypoints/icons scattered throughout a basin that do not relate to each other. You also do not remember if a fish was caught at the end of the waypoint, or if it ate at the boat. You don’t remember the direction you were drifting either, so you don’t know if you were casting to the right or left of the boat going one direction or another. How do you use that information to put you on the “sweet spot” for that outing as you are claiming the GPS will do for you?
Me, I just drift the area as through past experience I have learned the fish are scattered.  My memory tells me that, not some chip.
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For me dropping icons on marked fish is for short term use only, especially on smaller waters. Go back to them that day, or the next morning.
I don't really use GPS that much, I think open water sweet spots are easy enough to find year after year with just your memories, unless you are talking about several thousand acres of deep water. Sweet spots, at least in my context, are fairly large, but may only be 10-20% of the deep water basin.
JS
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Location: Contrarian Island | Travis, it's easy to lay down an icon where the fish actually hit and not where the boat is...just move the cursor over and drop it down....i do that when working structure and it's simple.. |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | Guest - 6/21/2012 9:33 AM
I think open water sweet spots are easy enough to find year after year with just your memories
JS
birch tree, old-crappy side-road boat-launch and the cantilevered dock ...
anyone in oneida county want to triangulate that spot?? granted it's a hump ... "hold", but it ties the basin to it.
we were all born with brains that can lay mental icons ... now we just have better tools than they did back in the day.
9:47am. 06.21.12 ... i completely agreed with JS
Edited by jonnysled 6/21/2012 9:48 AM
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Posts: 3518
Location: north central wisconsin | CiscoKid - 6/21/2012 8:19 AM
jonnysled - 6/21/2012 7:59 AM
CiscoKid - 6/21/2012 7:56 AM
as one of the best in the game at the deep water deal
i thought that was you??
Nope and never have claimed so. Seriously if anyone wants to learn the suspended deal and see what is done hire Paul Klein. Not only would you have a great time, but learn what is the “behind the scenes” of the deep water game. Just let me know if you need his contact info.
Though we haven't talked in some time, I used to know Paul quite well, have learned from watching him and cannot tell you how appreciative I am of his support of Operation Muskie. In the day, we'd often run into one another on one of our favorite waters in the north, as it was a mutual friend who told each of us about the spot. The first time I saw Paul on that lake, we were drifting parrallel. He bumped ahead of my dad and my drift with his outboard to hit the hump I was headed for, made three casts off the 10' hump and popped a 4'er. Point is, while we were both out in seemingly open water, Paul and I were both structure fishing those humps, and he made moves off his drift path to fish them. Previously, I had been told that Paul would purposely move his boat away from structure, whenever he got close to it. It was obvious that he used structure to his advantage, at least that day. As an excellent fisherman, how can he not, to some degree?
Edited by Reef Hawg 6/21/2012 11:00 AM
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Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Reef Hawg - 6/21/2012 10:57 AM
CiscoKid - 6/21/2012 8:19 AM
jonnysled - 6/21/2012 7:59 AM
CiscoKid - 6/21/2012 7:56 AM
as one of the best in the game at the deep water deal
i thought that was you??
Nope and never have claimed so. Seriously if anyone wants to learn the suspended deal and see what is done hire Paul Klein. Not only would you have a great time, but learn what is the “behind the scenes” of the deep water game. Just let me know if you need his contact info.
Though we haven't talked in some time, I used to know Paul quite well, have learned from watching him and cannot tell you how appreciative I am of his support of Operation Muskie. In the day, we'd often run into one another on one of our favorite waters in the north, as it was a mutual friend who told each of us about the spot. The first time I saw Paul on that lake, we were drifting parrallel. He bumped ahead of my dad and my drift with his outboard to hit the hump I was headed for, made three casts off the 10' hump and popped a 4'er. Point is, while we were both out in seemingly open water, Paul and I were both structure fishing those humps, and he made moves off his drift path to fish them. Previously, I had been told that Paul would purposely move his boat away from structure, whenever he got close to it. It was obvious that he used structure to his advantage, at least that day. As an excellent fisherman, how can he not, to some degree?
Jason like I mentioned earlier some lakes you fish based off the structure, and some lakes you don’t. I am willing to bet at the time you guys met and he bumped ahead to that bar it wasn’t because he had a GPS, but rather because he knew it was there from fishing it before and just had a feel for where he was at. I am sure all Paul was running in his boat was the Bottomline graph, and it may not have even been on. Yes ignoring structure would be silly, and Paul nor I ignore it. The question of this thread wasn’t how to fish a 10’ hump, and I also wasn’t saying not to fish them. It was how to move “out there” and catch fish. |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Travis,
On Pelican, for example, I'm fishing 20-25 and the fish are usually at 18 or so, suspended just below the Perch or White bass depending on year and forage or cruising the line looking for food. Look at the map, the 18' band between 15 and 20 depth line is reasonably consistent around the entire lake heading for the basin, and is pretty narrow and close to the primary and secondary breaks when close to the deepest waters in the puddle. Note also the location of the Mk stamps on the map, and the access to rock bars and weeds in a few kicks of the tail in some areas, but still adjacent by a couple casts to the deepest water in the pond. Bomb casts....
Pelican
Manson... I bass fish there mid summer in 22 to 25 and catch pike and muskies in the process on creatures. Pretty clear there where to toss into the deeps. Not a real good Muskie lake, but one I can fish mufti-species and expect to contact a nice fish reasonably often.
Manson And so on on the lakes where the deeps are that I fish regularly.
I don't have a GPS on the X170T. I can follow the 'road' just by watching my sonar, and remember each small area same way we all remember how to get to work without thinking about it at all. I tried to explain that once and was shouted down by the visor crowd, so I'll leave it at that.
I grew up learning lakes with a flasher. That's the first thing I bought for the X170 this Spring. Sure, a $1500 GPS/Sonar color display would be nice, but I know this water around here pretty well and just don't need one...although the side scan has me looking right now. If I was fishing big water like LOTW or Eagle or Lame Michigan or Erie or Lake Superior, a unit like that is sweet and needed. If you are doing things like some are to get back to where you were before, they are an absolute necessity. For me fishing where I do, not so much. I triangulate by OLD habit, anyhow, and there isn't a lake I fish where I can's see shorelines.
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Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | sworrall - 6/21/2012 11:20 AM
I don't have a GPS on the X170T. I can follow the 'road' just by watching my sonar, and remember each small area same way we all remember how to get to work without thinking about it at all. I tried to explain that once and was shouted down by the visor crowd, so I'll leave it at that. :)
Exactly what I am getting at! |
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Posts: 3518
Location: north central wisconsin | I'm certain he didn't have a GPS on his rig that day 15 years ago, and neither did we. Point was, we were both altering our drifft to hit known 'spots' vs drifting across the basin or following a breakline, or depth 'band'. Huge difference. GPS isn't typically neccessary for me on home waters during the daylight hours either. While most of my gps viewing comes on lakes where acreage is measured in the thousands or at night, it helps out in the abyss of small ponds, especially now that I only fish some of them once every few years now, vs every couple weeks. Its not as if one needs to have their nose glued to the screen. Point was we find it most useful when fishing seemingly featureless areas or very erratic edges. After a number of fish icons/waypoints(in your head or gps) are laid down in a small area of seemingly nothingness, features surprisingly become apparent.
Edited by Reef Hawg 6/21/2012 12:04 PM
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Location: Oconto Falls, WI | CiscoKid - 6/19/2012 8:58 AM
While trying to figure out a suspended pattern on a lake I will admit I will look for obvious structures, and try to tie them together like Sled suggests. However, I also look at what may look to be the really boring stuff. Why? Because that is often where you will find the true suspended fish. Lots of lakes will have true suspendos, and will also have those that relate or loosely relate to structure. The later being those that relate to humps, spines, and out from a breakline a bit. True suspendos are those that won’t be found near any structure, and make up a pretty dang big population on a lot of lakes. Lakes with pelagic fish are lakes that are great for the true suspenders as fish like cisco could care less about structure. Even lakes with perch/suckers will have a good population of true suspended fish but not to the extent of those containing pelagic baitfish. In the case of those lakes mud bottoms can become important. That’s where the bugs live that feed the food chain.
Jason I think we agree on the same thing. Maybe you got hung up on one of my earlier posts where I stated "Structure doesn't mean anything out suspended." I made that statement too matter of factly. My point was you don't HAVE to have structure to catch a suspended fish. Absolutley work structures into your thinking, but don't think you have to have them. Don't think that becuase your lake is a bowl, and has no real humps and points on it that it won't have a suspended fishery. Quite the contrary really. Also do not ignore the non-structure laiden parts of the lake thinking there would be no reason for a musky to be out there.
I make corrections all the time on some lakes to make sure I hit that 30' edge of a hump, but do it without the help of icons and waypoints. I "feel" it out. I also make correction away from some strucutres to ensure I stay deep enough. as from experience of drifting over some blasted structures I found I don't contact fish until I am at "x" depth. In the case of this I will set-up a drift, if possible, to miss that structure from the start so I do not have to make corrections with the trolling motor. |
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Location: Contrarian Island | can the "best in the game" get better ? i would think so.... adding more tools and gizmos to the arsenal when used to their fullest can help can't they? it's easy to get caught up in thinking the guys like me/cory "need" gps but in fact we don't...we just feel it helps us put more in the boat....people can and do catch piles of fish without gps.. that's not a question....I guess my question/thought here is can it be useful to put more in the boat over open water as it is to us "shallow water" guys..? maybe it is random out over the abyss..maybe it isn't as much as some think...interesting stuff tho...
Edited by BNelson 6/21/2012 1:03 PM
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Location: north central wisconsin | CiscoKid - 6/21/2012 12:14 PM
Don't think that becuase your lake is a bowl, and has no real humps and points on it that it won't have a suspended fishery.
Agreed. Personally, thats the most confidence building situation for a suspention bite, oligo or not. Where my experience has shown me average size of true suspended fish to be smaller than structure dwellers, its these situations where I believe the big ones can sometimes best be contacted 'out there'.
Edited by Reef Hawg 6/21/2012 1:10 PM
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Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Also if you want to learn how to fish deep structure look to Howie Meyer. While Paul specializes more in suspended fish, Howie concentrates more on catching them on/near bottom on deep structure. Both of course cross over. Curious to know if Howie is using GPS yet as I know he use to not to. Does Howie visit the board here anymore as I haven’t seen him in awhile? |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | BN,
Absolutely I could use a GPS. I have done so on previous rigs. What it did for me was confirm what I believed I knew. Old school isn't always bad or deserving ridicule (which you did quite recently, by the way)...especially if it works. In my case, it does. Some folks don't seem to be able or willing to read the water like that, maybe it isn't as much an acquired skill as something one simply can do easily or not. Some folks can do Algebra in their head. NOT me...
I believe it's an elapsed time subconscious function using visual cues from my sonar screen and surroundings, and some folks can't do that to find a place they drove to in the car twice already. |
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Posts: 1245
Location: Madtown, WI | Its a skill to be able to fish without a GPS and catch fish on big water... and a lot of guys can't. What the GPS has done for fishing is like what the new compound bows, or perimiter weighted golf clubs have done for their sport.... made it easier for regular smucks like me to fish more effectively I can give my waypoints of a lake to someone and tell them to go fish the spots with your unit zoomed to X level and fish 1/2 " off the marks and your casts will be 1/2 over the weeds and half over the break.... darn near a guided trip from my couch!
Is that kind of detail needed for true open water, I doubt it, but it has made for some interesting/entertaining reading.
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Location: minocqua, wi. | C.Painter - 6/21/2012 2:13 PM
I can give my waypoints of a lake to someone and tell them to go fish the spots with your unit zoomed to X level and fish 1/2 " off the marks and your casts will be 1/2 over the weeds and half over the break.... darn near a guided trip from my couch!
"Ah yes let someone else do all the hard work for you I see."
Please do Cory
better than TV!! better than TV ...
hey, where's mr. musky???
Editor's Note: Took a vacation. Should be back today. |
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GPS is very useful for open water fishing. I'm just to cheap to buy anything more technical then a hand-held!
I'm amazed at what some of the peeps I fish with can do with thier units, GPS and other electronics that is.
Most guys I shake my head at when I see the several thousands of dollars in electronics in the rig, 'cause they can't do much more then turn them on.
Other guys I know get every penny out of the investment.
JS |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Fight nice....Travis, I'd take him up on the AML trip. I wish I could go, my fanny would be in that seat in a heartbeat. |
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Posts: 999
| Im here, just watching from the sidelines! Great discussion here! |
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Posts: 572
Location: Maplewood, MN | Very interesting topics being covered here. I think I am going to give this open water stuff a shot. What could it hurt. |
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Posts: 69
Location: Pittsburgh | Steve; Curious as to what surprised you? In a quite similar experience what surprised me was the fact that the transition lines that held fish were very narrow but could hold fish right to the surface. |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | The actually structural elements are WAY more obvious when displayed on a camera. I was surprised at what it all looked like, and the tiny difference in average rock diameter that can determine whether fish hold there, or not...right in the middle of a huge rocky area with little depth change, for instance. And, allot more. A Micro makes it all clear. |
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Posts: 30
| My question: to what extent do baitfish play a role in Muskie suspension? For those with experience on centrarchid (panfish; not pelagic) lakes: is it really worth putting the majority of your fishing effort in open water? I know fish will venture there on occasion, but can you count on fish being present? |
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Posts: 247
Location: Uxbridge Ontario | BNelson - 6/21/2012 2:00 AM
can the "best in the game" get better ? i would think so.... adding more tools and gizmos to the arsenal when used to their fullest can help can't they? it's easy to get caught up in thinking the guys like me/cory "need" gps but in fact we don't...we just feel it helps us put more in the boat....people can and do catch piles of fish without gps.. that's not a question....I guess my question/thought here is can it be useful to put more in the boat over open water as it is to us "shallow water" guys..? maybe it is random out over the abyss..maybe it isn't as much as some think...interesting stuff tho...
I would have to think that the open water guys, or at least a portion of them that use GPS, would be marking fish and as them come in contact with them. Follows, hits and catches.
As a followup to that, my question is, how close do these waypoint come?
I would have to think that a hot producing area would have a distinctive pattern. I would imagine that muskie would stage or transition the same all the time and not wildly roam around.... But that is the clarity I am looking for out of this. |
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Location: Oconto Falls, WI | muskyball - 6/23/2012 12:59 AM
My question: to what extent do baitfish play a role in Muskie suspension? For those with experience on centrarchid (panfish; not pelagic) lakes: is it really worth putting the majority of your fishing effort in open water? I know fish will venture there on occasion, but can you count on fish being present?
I would say it is more hit and miss at finding a sucker/perch forage based lake that is a good suspended fishery compared to a pelagic baitfish type of lake. Suckers, perch, bluegills, crappies, and bass all suspended at some point or another, and thus will bring muskies out after them. Having a good sucker base in a lake is just as good as ciscos. I have some non-pelagic baitfish lakes that have good suspended fisheries, and others I just can’t seem to contact one out suspended or contact them with any kind of regularity. The only way to know is to give it a try, and more than just a time or two or a year or two. Sure you may end up wasting a lot of time, or you may just find a pattern on a lake that no one else is tapping into. |
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Location: Maplewood, MN | How successful would you say open water fishing has been for you? As far as follows and catching goes, what is a fairly average open water day for you? |
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Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | MuskieFever - 6/26/2012 12:23 AM
How successful would you say open water fishing has been for you? As far as follows and catching goes, what is a fairly average open water day for you?
Successful enough that it is my preferred method on most lakes I fish. If you are doing things right (jerking cranks to get them to kick out, "popping" rubber) you will get very few follows in general although there are some lakes that for whatever reason the fish like to follow on. |
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Posts: 688
Location: Northern IL | This area, "Deep Water" truly is what many consider the most important area in productive fishing. It separates the men from the boys!
The ability to "map and interpret" a "structure situation", terms rarely understood or used correctly. Are weeds structure? No they or not, how about rocks? Again no they are not, docks, wind, bait fish, and one way out of left field, the moon? No, none are structure, at best some, a weedline or a clean hard spot or a rock pile may be considered a "Break" on structure.
This term "structure, is probably his most popular and most abused term of all the relevant terms used today. Mr. Buck Perry 1st coined the term structure a long time ago but with time comes dilution and confusion. Structure: "the "bottom" of the lake, river or reservoir that is different from the surrounding bottom area".
A structure, or structure situation and being able to distinguish one that has the potential to produce and one that does not is absolutely necessary if the fisherman ever wants to become consistent at catching. Knowing where to cast comes by knowing what exist in the surrounding deep water, not by how the fishermen "feels" about a spot or which way the wind is blowing.
Just read the thread where a guy was taking about getting a bunch of rain and the lake raising up and he not doing so well after the fact. Some were on his case and ribbing him that he should not complain and he needs to lower his expectations, thought that was funny. I probably shouldn't say but my girl and I landed 31 muskies last week, 51" being the biggest and thought we had a slow week, he he. Btw all fish caught at 20' or deeper, and not one suspended.
This suspended thing... Sure it happens, but maybe 10% of a fishing season. 10 or 90% hummm? Just a few thoughts...
Edited by jerryb 6/26/2012 2:42 PM
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Posts: 4343
Location: Smith Creek | First off, Buck Perry didn't coin the term structure.
2nd, you likely weren't fishing the Gile or Flambeau Flowage if you caught 31 muskies in a week. But I invite you to come up this way and try your spoonplugging in 20+ feet in either of those bodies of water and see how you fare.
I thought Buck Perry was pretty cool till I started reading your posts, you're not doing the man any favors. |
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