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| Has anyone checked the actual line pick up of a 400TE with a power handle? |
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| Fair enough. Thanks. I see your point about the "end of the day" factor, and then like you said, it's up to each person to decide. For me, I gladly put down the coin for my Trinidads, and my TE's aren't cheap reels either. So price isn't huge, other than the fact that I have a 16NA and I don't mind the non-levelwind and I actually like the lever release, so for me the $500 is now not worth it to replace a reel that is so similar and which I don't mind it's features.
Thanks for the reply. |
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Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | catchandrelease - 1/16/2012 12:44 PM
Has anyone checked the actual line pick up of a 400TE with a power handle?
The 400TE has a line pickup of 25" with a full spool of line and the length of the handle will not increase or decrease the line pickup. The longer a handle is the more torque U will have that is all. |
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Posts: 2
| I can't see what the need for the higher speed retrieve in fresh water. I like the change from traditional 400 te. Yes it expensive but cheap compared to musky fishing lures, boats, motors, fish graphs, gps, etc. yes, I also own an I phone.
Steve |
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| pikemaster
your theory is interesting, but incorrect, the laws of physics tell us no matter what the gear ratio is you will do the same amount of work to move an object a certain distance, whether more of that work come from speed of cranking or force used, in the end it equals out,
- it'll come down to personal preferance, whould you rather reel fast or push hard on that crank and what reel will handle what you prefer to do |
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Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | Isaac - 1/16/2012 12:58 PM
pikemaster
your theory is interesting, but incorrect, the laws of physics tell us no matter what the gear ratio is you will do the same amount of work to move an object a certain distance, whether more of that work come from speed of cranking or force used, in the end it equals out,
- it'll come down to personal preferance, whould you rather reel fast or push hard on that crank and what reel will handle what you prefer to do
Whatever, U are book smart but all I know "street smart" Y are breaker bars long in automovtive tools ???? Y do they sell long Power Handles for fishing reels ???????? |
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Posts: 968
Location: N.FIB | what I`m wondering is will the tranx cast longer than say a trinidad or any other big game reel,I`m no larry d so don`t think I could cast it a 100yds like he did. |
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Posts: 127
| While what you say holds true in theory, but that is assuming that every other variable remains constant except for gear ratio.
The focus on gear ratio is entirely over emphasized. Gears in a reel are part of a system, and depending upon the amount of friction in the system, the efficiency of the gearing (the gears ability to transfer our force input by turning the reel handle into true reeling power), and the ergonimics of the system, our effort (both perceived and actual) will change.
Isaac - 1/16/2012 12:58 PM
pikemaster
your theory is interesting, but incorrect, the laws of physics tell us no matter what the gear ratio is you will do the same amount of work to move an object a certain distance, whether more of that work come from speed of cranking or force used, in the end it equals out,
- it'll come down to personal preferance, whould you rather reel fast or push hard on that crank and what reel will handle what you prefer to do |
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| pikemaster - I'm not trying to argue with you, but physics has real world aplication and is never wrong, just because i spent alot of time in school working towards an engineering degree doesn't mean i do not understand how this stuff works in the "street"
-in those cases you are moving a greater distance to achive your goal, which is the same as lowering gear ratio which, now that is the opposite of what you originally said with with the 25" per crank vs 30" per crank, |
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Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | CASTING55 - 1/16/2012 1:18 PM
what I`m wondering is will the tranx cast longer than say a trinidad or any other big game reel,I`m no larry d so don`t think I could cast it a 100yds like he did.
I hope physics don't enter into this one LOL LOL LOL
The Trinidad has no level wind "friction" to slow down the line as it is leaving the spool, so a Trinidad should cast longer but it has no spool brakes to slow down the spool and may backlash. Way to many factors to pick one over the other, but both should be close. |
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Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | Isaac - 1/16/2012 1:26 PM
pikemaster - I'm not trying to argue with you, but physics has real world aplication and is never wrong, just because i spent alot of time in school working towards an engineering degree doesn't mean i do not understand how this stuff works in the "street"
-in those cases you are moving a greater distance to achive your goal, which is the same as lowering gear ratio which, now that is the opposite of what you originally said with with the 25" per crank vs 30" per crank,
Hey good luck on your Engineering degree and I don't know anything about physics, but I"ll take a reel that I have to turn less times in one day over another that I have to turn 6000 more times in a day. I don't know Y it works but a longer handle will have more power, torque, feels better, takes less force to move it then a short handle on a reel. |
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Posts: 968
Location: N.FIB | Isaac - 1/16/2012 1:26 PM
what school do you attend and how many yrs at it,have a step daughter in her final yr of engineering school,maybe I`ll ask her about this and see what she says, mil school of eng
pikemaster - I'm not trying to argue with you, but physics has real world aplication and is never wrong, just because i spent alot of time in school working towards an engineering degree doesn't mean i do not understand how this stuff works in the "street"
-in those cases you are moving a greater distance to achive your goal, which is the same as lowering gear ratio which, now that is the opposite of what you originally said with with the 25" per crank vs 30" per crank, |
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Posts: 1716
Location: Mt. Zion, IL | PIKEMASTER - 1/16/2012 1:46 PM
Hey good luck on your Engineering degree and I don't know anything about physics, but I take a reel that I have to turn less times in one day over another that I have turn 6000 more times in a day. I don't know Y it works but a longer handle will have more power, torque, feels better, takes less force to move it then a short handle on a reel.
I am a licensed engineer and your logic is correct. The longer power handle, just like you describe allows you to apply more torque to the gearing. This is why low quality gears in fishing reels can't take a power handle. You literally overload the gearing.
Torque is equal to force x distance. If the distance is increased, so is the applied torque.
If say you have to apply 10 lbs of force to a 2.5 inch (measured from the center) crank, you apply 25 in-lbs of torque to the gearing. If you increase the crank length to 5 inches from the center, it only takes 5 lbs of force to generate the same torque on the gears.
Some gearing is also more efficient than others. This is why the angles of the gear teeth are important. Larger angle typically means smoother transition between gear teeth. Industry standard (not necessarily fishing reels, but industrial gearing) is that 3 teeth, at a minimum, are in contact with the adjacent gear.
Leaving less line on the spool will also decrease the amount of torque to bring in the same bait. Again torque is equal to force x distance. This distance is measured from the center of the spool, to the outside edge of the line, if looking at the spool from the side.
The 3 most important items to consider for "fatigue" are crank length, spool diameter, and gear ratio. All 3 of these play into how much it will take you to reel in a bait. |
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| I think we're getting off in the weeds here, and I think words are being used interchangeably. "Power," "force," "work," and "effort" are all different things but sound and seem the same.
Yes, the same amount of work is required, it's just being done over more or fewer revolutions of the handle. Same work, but divided over a certain number of revolutions makes the "feel" different.
Same as with power handles, you still have to put the same amount of energy into the reel, you're just doing it over a longer distance (larger circumfrence) with a power handle. Think of pushing a box up a ramp onto a 3' ledge. You still have to put the same amount of energy into the box to move it, but if your ramp is 10' it'll be "easier" than if your ramp is 4' long. A power handle is a longer ramp.
You're both right. Energy is constant, but the means through which it's put into the reel and expended over time and distance is what makes the difference. |
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Posts: 221
| Shimano needs to know this reel will be popular with Saltwater and Musky fishermen before they spend the money to reverse engineer and produce the Tranx in a left handed version.
Give it a couple years, and if the Tranx is a hit and therefor not going anywhere, then you'll see a left handed model.
...look at it this way. When/If they do release a lefty, then they"ll have 2+ years of feedback to work out any problems it may have. |
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Posts: 1220
| I am not a scientist...but I play one on TV. FORCE is the application of how I end up shopping in a mall instead of fishing on the lake. SPEED is the way charges go on my wife's card before I can put them on mine. TORQUE is the pressure applied to testicles being twisted into submission....but I digress! Back to the physics related to the new TranX, I will add that when the button is pushed to cast the bait, the level wind feature is disengaged. Therefore the line needs to bend back and forth to find the now stationary guide. In some other reels, you push the button to cast your bait but the level wind moves back and forth with the line coming off the spool. So, the next question to all you "egg-headed Harvard types" out there is this: Do you create less drag with the level wind disengaged versus engaged? I'd say that you do! |
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Location: Ontario | RyanJoz - 1/16/2012 3:08 PM
PIKEMASTER - 1/16/2012 1:46 PM
Hey good luck on your Engineering degree and I don't know anything about physics, but I take a reel that I have to turn less times in one day over another that I have turn 6000 more times in a day. I don't know Y it works but a longer handle will have more power, torque, feels better, takes less force to move it then a short handle on a reel.
I am a licensed engineer and your logic is correct. The longer power handle, just like you describe allows you to apply more torque to the gearing. This is why low quality gears in fishing reels can't take a power handle. You literally overload the gearing.
Torque is equal to force x distance. If the distance is increased, so is the applied torque.
If say you have to apply 10 lbs of force to a 2.5 inch (measured from the center ) crank, you apply 25 in-lbs of torque to the gearing. If you increase the crank length to 5 inches from the center, it only takes 5 lbs of force to generate the same torque on the gears.
Some gearing is also more efficient than others. This is why the angles of the gear teeth are important. Larger angle typically means smoother transition between gear teeth. Industry standard (not necessarily fishing reels, but industrial gearing ) is that 3 teeth, at a minimum, are in contact with the adjacent gear.
Leaving less line on the spool will also decrease the amount of torque to bring in the same bait. Again torque is equal to force x distance. This distance is measured from the center of the spool, to the outside edge of the line, if looking at the spool from the side.
The 3 most important items to consider for "fatigue" are crank length, spool diameter, and gear ratio. All 3 of these play into how much it will take you to reel in a bait.
Great explanation!
Thanks! |
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Posts: 366
| "The reel to end all arguments..." Apparently not.
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Posts: 8782
| I looked at it. I think it's ugly.
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Posts: 380
Location: Michigan | Well, as a right-handed person who fishes with a more efficient left hand wind, I am intrigued enough by this reel to consider forcing myself to learn how to cast ass backwards, and much less efficiently. I don’t think I can wait 2-3 years for a lefty… I will buy one strictly to burn double 10’s in a straight line, and will go with the high gear ratio. |
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Posts: 906
Location: Warroad, Mn | Hmmmm! Does anyone really think that you'll catch more muskies with this reel? Not all muskie lures are designed to be reeled it at warp speed, and they still catch lots of muskies! I'll still bet that it's where you throw your lure not how fast you can reel it that makes the most differance. Doug Johnson |
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Posts: 1462
Location: Davenport, IA | Can muskiefirst have a like button installed? |
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Location: Sun Prairie, WI | Schuler - 1/16/2012 7:05 PM Can muskiefirst have a like button installed? Yeah, because I'd definitely "like" Doug Johnson's post!! Well said, Doug!! |
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Posts: 1184
Location: Iowa Great Lakes | Many of us cant reel a baitcaster with their left hand, and cant reel a spinning reel with their right.... sounds weird but I can't switch from either and have tried...then again I'm amidexteris (sp)....I also cant shoot a gun right handed but can shoot a bow either way, swing a hammer with my right hand but run a screwgun with my left... Maybe I'm just odd....BTW I'm primarily right handed.... |
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Posts: 8782
| If you guys ain't careful it's gonna point permanently to the left! |
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Posts: 814
| At first I was impressed by the hype and promotion this reel received, then I went and saw the reel first hand. With all this talk about the gearing,line pickup and which one for this and that, I'm surprised no one commented on the durability issues I saw at the show. I saw the used dahlberg tranx's at thorne's, both reels felt sloppy in the handle, the spool had lots of side play, and I casted the one on the rod and I made the handle engage twice with minimal effort. I thought they were addressing this problem? You think they would have taken care of this problem being its a push button reel. My gold Trinidad 14 is 3 yrs old and feels tighter than this reel. I had the money ready to preorder at the show. Now I think I'll wait a year and see what issues surface.
I will say this though,thus far Shimano has and continues to put out the best reels in the business and continues to produce products everyone tries to compete with. |
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| The main concern I've had about these reels is the handle engaging during the cast, and that's the first I've heard anyone mention the fact. I assume that problem could be fixed by swapping the "Trinidad" handle with a counterbalanced one. I'm actually surprised Shimano did not introduce the reel with one already on the reel. That may come back to haunt them if this is a common problem. At $500 I would expect people to be more apt to complain and seek replacements as the reel engaging on the cast can destroy a reel. Personally, I find it hard to believe that Shimano would put a reel on the market that would engage easily and/or persistently. They're a good company and they know the issues reels have better than we do. As far as handle and spool play, hopefully that was just an issue on the prototypes, and they will be resolved on the actual models.
I'm all for the TranX. I think it will be a much needed tool, and I'm genuinely excited to use one. However, the more I consider everything one thing is certain for me, I won't purchase one sight unseen. Additionally, as much as I would love to have one for ice out, I think the smart move may be to wait until July or August to see how people like them and what issues will be discussed. If the feedback is positive, I'll pull the trigger. If not, I'll wait for the next model to come out. At the very least it will give me additional time to earn some more money. |
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Posts: 814
| Catch/release, Shimano does have a reel on the market that accidentally engages on the cast regularly, it's called the ljv, theres lots of info on this board regarding this issue. They should never use a non counter balanced handle on push button reels period, put a lever release on it and problem solved just like the 700 te. For this kind a cash you shouldn't have to worry where the handle is when you cast imo |
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Posts: 283
Location: beloit | I have a non counter balanced handle on my te and the only time u ever had it engage during the cast is when I bumped it, it doesn't really matter what position the handle is in when you cast its how you cast!
For those of you that want a left handed tranx I have a solution for you, FLIP IT OVER and your problem will be solved! Just pretend its a spinning reel. LOL |
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Posts: 221
| An LJV was designed for JIGGING not casting. ...it says it right on the side of the reel.
If you want an LJV that doesn't engage, use a Tekota handle and get it machined to fit the LJV.
So unless you're making sure you handle points down on your LJV on every cast, there's really no room for complaining about it engaging. I would be peeed at the guy who sold it to you and didn't explain what the reel is actually meant for in the first place... not Shimano. |
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