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Posts: 8793
| I often wonder if the anti's are really opposed to having muskies in the lakes, or if they are just opposed to having muskie anglers ON the lakes... |
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EA;
Both of those reasons are why we should be careful who we make enemies with, and how far we are going to push.
You can protect pike in MN without banning spearing on all MN waters.
JS |
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| Banning spearing isn't the answer or the problem. If we could lay down a law that wouldn't allow legistrature to go around the DNR. The MDAA is a problem here IMO. I think we have alot going for us with the grassroots campaign. We just need everyone to voice there opinion. |
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Another way to look at this;
I we saw a video on u-tube of a couple of anglers catching 20 lb pike and keeping them, would we then try to ban angling?
No, we would focus on protective regs and educating anglers as to why those big pike are important.
Lots of anglers kill big pike too.
JS |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | i agree with JS ... that's skarie! |
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Posts: 8793
| I'd venture to say that we'd be best served taking a universal approach to making all types of fishing better for everyone. Can't make any enemies that way. Well, except for PETA that is. |
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Posts: 167
Location: Alexandria, MN | I agree that making enemies with non-muskie people is NOT the answer. And while I will NEVER understand why someone would rather spear a fish than battle it with hook and line, an all out ban on spearing wouldn't necessarily protect the trophy pike. Lake specific regulations regarding sizes and limits is a better approach. Some lakes which are overrun with hammer handle pike may actually benefit from spearing. It is unfortunate that organizations like the MDAA chose to take such an extreme, close-minded approach toward laws which would benefit the fishery as a whole. |
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| I think you all missed the point of the video. Did you know that was a Muskie or Hybrid before it turned away or did it look exactly like the pike they were spearing. The point is you can't tell until it's too late.
On the not pushing for banning spearing cause it will make enemies, you must be kidding. It's been tried again over and over and over and we get *&^%$ everytime. Why do you experts think Gil Hamm insisted that stocked Muskie lakes be designated? Because he knew that it was a waste of money to stock Muskies in a lake that was speared. Muskie and Pike make a migration to the shallows at first ice. First ice is when spearers do most of their damage. Now that they have gotten the season increased to Nov 15 instead of Dec 1 they can start up north and spear new ice all the way to the Iowa border. The greed these peeps display is pathetic and they should be banned from their so called "sport" |
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| Also, hook and line anglers don't get to choose which fish eats their bait. Spearers do get that choice and it obvious which fish get targeted. |
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Posts: 374
Location: Bemidji | Here's a short video of the temptation this harpooner is facing. Read the description to the video, that's the scary part. The Minnesota Darkhouse's ultimate goal is to legally spear muskies.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wT_JsTCz_kA
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Sled, that's classic.
The idea that stocking muskie lakes where you can still spear is a waste is nonsense.
Case in point, Big Detroit, Pelican, Miltona, Bemidji, Planet. Are you kidding me?
Are you even trying to imply that these lakes are a failure because you can spear on them?? Really?? Have you ever fished them??
I think some people really need to ask the question, who kills more muskies, spearers or muskie fishermen. Be it intentionally or by delayed mortality.
Then put this issue back to the place it should be, protecting trophy pike.
Make this a pike issue and we have a leg to stand on without looking like complete
hypocrites. Protecting pike can be done without banning spearing. It has been on many MN lakes with special regs.
JS
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Posts: 32895
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Cass Lake, Spearing, & PMTT
'I often wonder if the anti's are really opposed to having muskies in the lakes, or if they are just opposed to having muskie anglers ON the lakes...'
'Both of those reasons are why we should be careful who we make enemies with, and how far we are going to push.'
'without looking like complete--
hypocrites'
Interesting.
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| I bet was fishing them before you born JS and guess what, they didn't have ANY Muskies in them then but do now through the efforts of people like Gil Hamm and others. If Gil wanted designated Muskie lakes, I'd think he had a well thought out reason why. Let me ask you a question, have you ever speared them. ?? |
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Posts: 32895
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | SV/JS,
If you want to fight with John Skarie and Vice/Verse, I can recommend a place to do so, and this isn't it. At the risk of being accused (again) of 'having no class', I'll ask you not to make comments designed to start a fight.
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Posts: 34
| Did anyone read the DNR's Long Range Muskellunge and Large Northern Pike in Mn? They want Trophy pike -well lifting the Cass lake spearing ban will not improve opportunities for TROPHY PIKE on Cass Lake. What the hell is wrong from angling in a darkhouse? I like traditions but I say get rid of spearing and get rid of them FUC'N nets on Mille Lacs, the lakes it occurs on suffer, Those lakes mentioned above do they have good numbers of Trophy Pike? Wasn't the ban put in place to Protect Muskellunge on Cass, well why lift the ban we don't wanna protect musky anymore? |
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| Dont read this, its long.
Accountability for our impact on the resource; this has been the problem. I'm very happy with what Muskie anglers have done to address their impact, I can say the same thing about Bass and Trout; Walleye and even the Panfish people are beginning to understand this fishery is not endless.
A recent study in MN showed that 11% of DHS just looked at fish through the hole, I can understand that, keeping a 2-3 pound fish for a meal, I get it and do.
Plowing through multiple 10-17 pound fish over a few days, I don't get; be responsible.
Honestly it could be the best tool for getting rid of small over abundant Pike, I always thought it would be a great idea to get the Muskie guys and DHS guys on one of these lakes together with liberal harvest and take as many as possible, let the Legion pickle and have a feed with them.
A Clifs (Cass lake initiative for spearing) guy asked me what our secret to success was, I told him we don't celebrate killing big fish, and if a guy does it we don't fish with him anymore, its not cool anymore. We don't hold contests to see who kills the biggest fish.
We want to protect the Trophy status of Cass Lake Muskies as well as the large Pike, we value the Pike as a creature that keeps balance in this lake with its Walleye and Panfish as well.
We would like to see people continue to fish Cass, maybe with friends and family or in a tournament if that's what they enjoy. We would like to see a better overall Muskie fishery in MN.
They say they want to spear small pike because they wouldn't eat large fish due to the super-fund site, they say they want 3-4 pound fish to eat, they want to spear whitefish.
They recognize no-one has done more for their sport than Muskie-fisherman and would like to learn from us. They say they don't want the Muskie-fisherman to leave Cass Lake, they understand the impact we have on the local economy and they don't want to lose it.
Can "everyone" on either side be happy with all of these wants? nope.
Is there compromise? That requires understanding and willingness.
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| Nice post Muskie fool  . |
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Nobody needs to explain the history of muskie in MN, the efforts of Gil or any other aspect of MI in MN to me SV. You are barking up the wrong tree there. I will say this, many things have changed in the muskie world since the 70's. We learned that we were our own worst enemies then, and corrected that with the embrace of C&R. I don't think we are done with that journey though.
It's obvious that many people's opinions on this subject are being fueled by an ongoing war with the spearing community.
I can't really make my points any clearer than I have.
We've got 2 groups of people carrying pitchforks and torches and in the end everybody will lose on some levels.
JS
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Posts: 4343
Location: Smith Creek | If all they want is to spear 2-3 pound fish for the table, they have 9,995 lakes available to them. Why Cass? |
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| John, I like what you have to say. How do you bring the two sides together? Can there be a agreement on these issues? |
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Posts: 1220
| One more example regarding strategic planning: It's the NRA. Do you like it-not like it? Either way you have to admit they are pretty powerful, and get their voices counted every single time. Well, how about the high capacity clips in the pistol that shot the congresswoman from Arizona---think we need those to kill our buck next year? Or--the really nastiest looking assult rifle with the 100 shot magazine? You'd think the NRA would give in on that stuff, wouldn't you? But they don't. They don't becasue they see any crack at all in their armor as a crack that the anti-gun crowd will crawl into and make a nest. I think we as anglers can sort of admit we are not quite as powerful as the NRA, and maybe can not afford to open up these cracks either. Would I rather not see the spears? Yea, I'd rather not see the spears! Do I wish to splinter a group that is already very thin on friends? No! Marty Forman |
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| A word I keep hearing thrown around is "tradition". I have to laugh every time I hear it. The word is most often used by those unwilling and or unable to evolve. Everything ever done in the history of man kind could be labelled a tradition. If the arguement for the continuance of spearing as a recreational activity is it's a "tradition" good luck with that. |
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Cbrooks;
Not sure if you are asking me or John Underhill.
For what it's worth, here is my opinion.
There will be no sitting down at the table until the labeling and name calling stops by both sides.
Not all spearers want to be exempt from slots, they don't all want to kill every big pike they see and they don't all want to legally spear muskies.
Acting like the whole group is the anti-christ will never lead to being able to sit down and hammer things out.
It also goes without saying not every muskie angler wants to ban spearing, thinks that anyone who spears is a piece of dog-poo or thinks that all spearers will harpoon every muskie they see.
But they way some people talk you'd think all those things are true on both ends.
JS |
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| that's a great message John. it's sad that it's a hard thing to do and most people are content to take the easy path and just paint people with other interests as "the bad guys" when in reality it's probably just a small percentage who are not ethical. albeit a small percentage who can do a lot of damage. but if you want to co-opt those who are willing to adapt and cooperate, you have to be civil towards them first. |
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| Cooperation??? It was decided in the name of cooperation to not fight the spearers on new waters to be stocked in Mn. Spearing would be allowed. What did we get for that move? (A mistake in my opinion) The spearers stir up the public w/ blatant misinformation which ruined 2 of the 4 lakes the DNR had approved for Muskie stocking. Also during this time the spearers got the season moved up to Nov. 15th and has reintroduced the spearing ban lifting on the self-sustaining Cass Lake.
As many of us feared, has come true. Cooperation w/ these people is viewed as weakness on our part and embolded them.
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| Also during this time period the spearers got legislation to allow non-residents to spear for a $42 fee. So you will be able "to try spearing" as you suggested recently Lambeau. |
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| Cooperation w/ these people is viewed as weakness on our part and embolded them. "these people"? perhaps you might be more specific: the radical leaders of MDAA, etc.; or the workaday Joe that has a darkhouse and enjoys ethical spearing? i know a few guys in that second category and they're not the same as the small cadre of people leading the political efforts. VERY different groups that you're lumping together as "these people", imho. ignore/fight the radicals, sure; but reaching out to the average, reasonable folks is plain good sense. and yes, i'm quite interested in trying spearing for pike. like anyone else i can do so on many lakes in MN where harvesting of appropriate sized pike is desireable. why shouldn't i want to try that?
Edited by lambeau 4/1/2011 11:35 AM
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Posts: 8793
| Well, there's no better way to get folks riled up than to start talking about spearing fish that we take great care to release. Not familiar with the local traditions in the Cass Lake area, so the only thing I can relate it to is what I see going on in Vilas County.... Lots of the folks up there, most, in fact, are from N IL. They all bought homes up there during the good years, and now they're faced with severe restrictions on their (walleye) fishing, so the local tribes can spear during the spawn. It's difficult to justify only being able to keep two walleyes per day out of your "own lake" when over 200 were speared, legally, in the spring, especially when you spent half a million just to have a place up there where the fishing and the environment is still unspoiled.
So I can see the "spearing is evil" mentality. I'm sure that there are conservation minded pike spearers, who just take a few small pike for the table, just like those of us who catch them and eat them. While the method of catch might be a little more fatal, the end resut is one less fish either way.
And if you don't think "tradition" is a powerful factor? One needs to look no firther than the motor trolling ban in N/WI. There's no other reason for it other than tradition. Whatever your opinion is on the subject, one could argue that in that particular case, "tradition" is actually helping the fisheries.
So we're worrid about the larger pike and the incidental speared muskie. There's no arguing that a lot of damage can be done, especially on a smaller lake. But I suspect the vast majority of spearers understand that too. They don't want to spear themselves out of a viable fishery anymore than we want to overfish our lakes for muskies. |
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Posts: 32895
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | "these people"? perhaps you might be more specific: the radical leaders of MDAA, etc.; or the workaday Joe that has a darkhouse and enjoys ethical spearing?
Which group is active politically especially considering this issue, and how do their actions impact the rest who enjoy that activity? |
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Posts: 8793
| sworrall - 4/1/2011 12:06 PM
"these people"? perhaps you might be more specific: the radical leaders of MDAA, etc.; or the workaday Joe that has a darkhouse and enjoys ethical spearing?
Which group is active politically especially considering this issue, and how do their actions impact the rest who enjoy that activity?
Careful now Steve. Let's not let facts get in the way of emotion.  |
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