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| We are talking MN guides here; aren't we? I never claimed all guides are against it, not even a majority. My point was that assuming all guides would support the change is just not true! On this thread alone myself and Jsondag oppose the issue and no guide has posted in support of a change. I personally know most of the prominent guides in the state and can confidently say: opinions vary widely! |
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| Guest - 3/9/2011 4:07 PM
Live bait fishing for panfish, walleye etc. is what concerns me most about 2 lines.
Anybody who fishes a little can't deny that more fish will swallow bait if people use 2 lines. You can't reel 'em both in at the same time.
Delayed mortality will go up. Whether that is detrimental is a personal opinion.
I just don't see the logic in creating new regs that will result in more fish swallowing hooks.
JS
I don't know, John. Aren't most of the people out there fishing for panfish (and walleyes to some degree) just looking to limit out and go home? I'd think that anything that swallowed the bait in that situation was destined for the frying pan to begin with. |
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| ToothyCritter - 3/9/2011 4:57 PM
esoxaddict - 3/9/2011 2:58 PM
Well, John... allowing people to catch more fish by using more lines can't possibly benefit the fishery, now can it?
Why fish with hooks at all? It hurts the fish and that's not good for the fishery right? We can just sit at home and watch TV holding our di&#s, which will protect the poor fish….
Mike, that may be true. But I look at it this way:
FISHING is bad for the fishery. But the money I donate to our club every year buys more stocked muskies than I would kill if I was eating the #*^@ things. So when I catch one, and turn it loose? Well... I bought the ****in thing, and a bunch of its friends, too. Building great fisheries is a great thing. But if you can't fish for the fish and catch the fish and enjoy catching the fish?? What the **** good are they? |
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Location: Smith Creek | Kinda funny how when the trolling in Wisconsin question was up there was lots of guys from MN who argued "trolling won't affect the fishery, but expand opportunities to catch fish" now the two line question comes up and apparently trolling won't affect the fishery but two lines will?
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| Well from somebody whos been around Minnesota Muskie fishing since 74
heres a recap
From a well known angler in a magazine- "Minnesotas policy of stocking its limited amount of lakes at one per acre assures this will NEVER be a destination for the serious muskie angler"
A June opening date is simply not needed
Minnesotas 40 inch minimum is overkill
but all these over regulated Minnesota trends sure havent detered people from now wanting to come here for their Muskie Vacation. |
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More and more MN lakes now have slots, special size limits etc. for walleyes, crappie,northern etc. You can't just keep everything you hook in a lot of situations.
It's our responsibility as ethical fishermen to release fish as healthy as possible.
Allowing people to fish with 2 lines will result in more fish being let go with swallowed hooks, period.
As I stated before, whether that matters to you is a personal opinion.
JS
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Location: Roscoe IL | esoxaddict - 3/10/2011 1:35 AM
ToothyCritter - 3/9/2011 4:57 PM
esoxaddict - 3/9/2011 2:58 PM
Well, John... allowing people to catch more fish by using more lines can't possibly benefit the fishery, now can it?
Why fish with hooks at all? It hurts the fish and that's not good for the fishery right? We can just sit at home and watch TV holding our di&#s, which will protect the poor fish….
Mike, that may be true. But I look at it this way:
FISHING is bad for the fishery. But the money I donate to our club every year buys more stocked muskies than I would kill if I was eating the #*^@ things. So when I catch one, and turn it loose? Well... I bought the ****in thing, and a bunch of its friends, too. Building great fisheries is a great thing. But if you can't fish for the fish and catch the fish and enjoy catching the fish?? What the **** good are they?
That's right; it seems like some take fishing so seriously that it takes the fun out of it. Ever spend a day on the boat with a guy who was not happy whatsoever even after they got a fish, nothing but complaining and hard work to catch a fish so they could turn it in for points. Boy, that how I want to fish, under the gun with pressure to impress members of a club, woo hooo! Its bullsh#t and certainly not enjoyable...
Yeah, we want to be cognizant of fish mortality, but to what extreme? Having the legal right with a second rod to drag live bait while you cast, improves your chances at a strike. So what’s wrong with that? Most anglers with the knowledge and means to do this are going to release the fish anyway. There are bag limits and having a second rod does not change that. If you break the law and keep more than allowed with two rods, you can do that with one rod, a spear or dynamite. It’s still against the law.
My point is, if you fish you put the fish at risk. If some are so worried about possible mortality, that they refuse change and new ideas, then why fish at all?
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I think the better question is why do some people spend countless hours to improve our fisheries only to be scoffed at by those who reap the benefits.
Some of you need to pull you head out of the sand.
JS |
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Location: Roscoe IL | Guest - 3/10/2011 10:21 AM
I think the better question is why do some people spend countless hours to improve our fisheries only to be scoffed at by those who reap the benefits.
Some of you need to pull you head out of the sand.
JS
Spent all weekend cleaning the bathrooms, kids playrooms, bedrooms, sheets, laundry, and the kitchen was spotless when I done. I asked the kids to help out, and I got scoffed at too. You wouldn't know I did a thing after 3 day's, but I still felt good about what I did. |
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| ToothyCritter - 3/10/2011 9:56 AM
[...]
That's right; it seems like some take fishing so seriously that it takes the fun out of it. Ever spend a day on the boat with a guy who was not happy whatsoever even after they got a fish, nothing but complaining and hard work to catch a fish so they could turn it in for points. Boy, that how I want to fish, under the gun with pressure to impress members of a club, woo hooo! Its bullsh#t and certainly not enjoyable...
[...]
Once. Guy actually got mad and started throwing things around in the boat because I caught two fish and he didn't catch any. It was the first and only time I was ever glad when the day was over. On the ride home I started thinking "what a waste. That wasn't even fun!"
And that's what we build the fisheries for, isn't it? So people can go out and have fun catching fish. Hats off to the people out there making that possible, nobody is scoffing at their efforts. But the "protect the fish at all costs" mentality? Again, what good are they if you can't enjoy fishing for them? Something like this? This will allow more people to have more fun catching more fish. That's a good thing. Do what you can in terms of size limits, closed seasons, size/slot/creel limits, stocking, etc. That's great. But let's not forget why we build fisheries to begin with. |
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Location: Minnesota: where it's tough to be a sportsfan! | I can appreciate all sides of the issue. but to me we are attempting to again FIX something that is NOT broken. Minnesota enjoys a Muskie fishery like no other state has. The studies have led to success. The hard work of just a few have brought amazing fishing opportunities to the whole state, North to South. If the studies show the change enhances the resource I'm all for it. If it just enhances the catch rate...I'll pass. Falls along the same line as being able to have up to 23 treble hooks on a bait. There's my two cents |
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| If you went to most peoples medicine cabinets you would probably find 90% of them have an aspirin bottle in them
in comparison if you went into most Minnesota Walleye fishermans tackle boxes you would find Lindy tackle, Jigs,Rigs,etc
Yet when we had Ted Takasaki has a speaker a couple years back who then owned lindy we asked him what he thought of the two line proposal and he replied "i would do well biz wise but long term I think it would hurt"
He was against it and this was someone who would have reaped much financially |
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Toothy;
I'd expect that from kids, just like mine.
Unfortunately in this situation it's adults that seem to think the guys who oppose 2 lines are "the sky is falling" doomsayers that are overprotective and take the fun out of fishing.
Well I would ask you who is it that helped get our fishery to where it is and who is it that seems to think that it will stay that way when you loosen regs.
JS |
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| I think whether you want 1 or 2 line boils down to what you want for an outdoor experience. Some people equate success/enjoyment with how many fish they caught while others equate success/enjoyment with simply wetting a line (any fish is a bonus) or a walk in the woods (not necessarily having to shoot something).
It's safe to say that there is a good reason there are limits on how many lines an angler may use (and why it's at 1 line now), if it didn't make a difference there would be no limit. My vote is to stay with one line and just try to enjoy a little more of the fishing rather than the catching.
Tongue in cheek...if I were a guide I would not want the increase to 2 lines either because more people would want to troll then, I would wind in less fish as a result then and gas is going to be $4 a gallon soon. LOL! |
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Location: Bemidji | You should ask yourself, "Is this good for the fishery?" Catches in MN are the best they have ever been. Why would anyone want to jeopardize it? This will not improve the fishery. The catch rates will go up and so will the delayed mortality, swallowed rigs, and trolled fish being dragged further distances. I have heard stories of musky anglers reviving fish that they found floating after being caught/snagged by a pontoon troller. Obviously, if they were allowed more lines they would run 16 lines instead of 8. |
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| Raising the limit will do 2 things in my opinion... For Muskies that is.
Quadruple or more the amount of live bait used... Almost everyone I know doesnt use live bait in MN because you cant cast with a sucker out...
Then the trolling #s will go up will double the lines, and more of a willingness to try different baits with more than 1 in the water..
Basicly, catches increase for a few years............. Then we start blaming the muskies not being there / or being hard to catch on baitfish populations....
Edited by Jason Bomber 3/10/2011 3:11 PM
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| kevin cochran - 3/10/2011 2:50 PM
You should ask yourself, "Is this good for the fishery?" Catches in MN are the best they have ever been. Why would anyone want to jeopardize it? This will not improve the fishery. The catch rates will go up and so will the delayed mortality, swallowed rigs, and trolled fish being dragged further distances. I have heard stories of musky anglers reviving fish that they found floating after being caught/snagged by a pontoon troller. Obviously, if they were allowed more lines they would run 16 lines instead of 8.
Not disagreeing with you Kevin, but let me play devil's advocate here for a minute...
You say catches in MN are better than they've ever been. Why is that? One can point in many directions other than the 1 line per angler rule. I'd venture to say that catches are better EVERYWHERE, even here in IL when you can run 3 lines per person.
I see your point about the pontoon trollers, but... Do they really know what they are doing out there, or do they just toss a bunch of baits out and drive around? That method would surely cause you to luck your way into the occasional fish, but are those types really catching significant #'s of fish?
On the surface, I can see why people are quick to say more lines=bad, but... How much harm is it really going to do?
Granted, I do most of my fishing where you aren't allowed to motor troll, so I don't see what you see out there. We run into more cases where fish are killed because of incidental catch, no net, no pliers, no idea what to do with a fish of that size. But another line in the hands of the people who are most likely to kill fish to me is another line in the hands of someone who probably doesn't catch that many fish to begin with. |
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Location: Bemidji | esoxaddict - 3/10/2011 3:40 PM
You say catches in MN are better than they've ever been. Why is that? One can point in many directions other than the 1 line per angler rule. I'd venture to say that catches are better EVERYWHERE, even here in IL when you can run 3 lines per person.
I see your point about the pontoon trollers, but... Do they really know what they are doing out there, or do they just toss a bunch of baits out and drive around? That method would surely cause you to luck your way into the occasional fish, but are those types really catching significant #'s of fish?
On the surface, I can see why people are quick to say more lines=bad, but... How much harm is it really going to do?
Granted, I do most of my fishing where you aren't allowed to motor troll, so I don't see what you see out there. We run into more cases where fish are killed because of incidental catch, no net, no pliers, no idea what to do with a fish of that size. But another line in the hands of the people who are most likely to kill fish to me is another line in the hands of someone who probably doesn't catch that many fish to begin with.
So you admit that it will cause harm to the fishery? I dont think anyone has the numbers or estimates of the harm that will be done. I saw Shawn state that there are studies that show an increase in mortality (MN/WI border waters?). Maybe he can post them on here.
So IL is a destination for trophy muskie fishermen? I am not disagreeing that size has increased there but MN is pretty tough to beat for catching giants. Catches in MN are the best they have ever been due to stocking efforts, catch and release ethics, and strict regulations. One of those regulations is using a single line per person. I dont think you can have one or two and not the third and still have an incredible fishery. To say that we can give a little in one of these areas so we can catch more fish is greedy.
The pontoon trollers do catch fish. They use a mast system and can stack lines on both sides. They arent afraid to keep the fish they catch either. Just saying they will be 2 times more likely to catch/snag a fish if this gets passed. I am not against trolling. In fact, I have and use my mast system with four guys/four lines. Stacking twice as many trolled lines is a disaster waiting to happen if the people in your boat are unexperienced. |
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Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | A few things:
The DNR estimates that harvest goes up around 30% with the additional lines (they did creels on boarder waters) for people that use multi vs. single lines. Now extrapolate a 30% increase in harvest multiplied by every outing you have. In a state that is facing more slots on walleyes and having HUGE issues on the panfish and pike fronts this only makes the job harder. As far as the "limit is the limit" debate goes, the limit is currently set for 1 line fishing. If 2 lines were to go through the bag limits would be cut and the support for the bill drops out when people find out their walleye bag limit is going from 6-4.
In how it concerns muskies: I'm not concerned with the vast majority of people on this board when it comes to fishing ethics. The problem is that we represent a small fraction of the fishing public. We may know how to properly use a quickstrike rig (still illegal in MN if I'm correct), but that doesn't mean the vast majority of other anglers do.
EDUCATION some will say. I say great, come with me and start doing it. That's when support for this sort of thing starts to drop out. Also, HOW do you get to the "rest of the people?" I don't know how and I've spent more time trying to figure it out then probably anybody here. I doubt anyone else who loves the EDUCATION chant does either. So if "educating" 1.4 million anglers isn't really going to happen in any organized/timely fashion why make the change? We have it so good in this state with our fishery (all species) that I think we've gotten spoiled. People want more and more the easy way (better tech, more lines, longer seasons) instead of the sustainable way: creating a system that has more/better fish. The only way to keep the ride as great as it is in MN is to keep building.
Also, why stop at 2 lines? Why not make it unlimited? How about trot-lines, gill nets, bow fishing/spearing game fish? Why not open all the closed seasons? How about lifting all the bag limits? Remember, all we need to do is EDUCATE people and everything will be duckies and bunnies right?
Here's a concept to think about that should really be another thread: Fair Chase |
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Location: Roscoe IL | Guest - 3/10/2011 2:05 PM
Toothy;
I'd expect that from kids, just like mine.
Unfortunately in this situation it's adults that seem to think the guys who oppose 2 lines are "the sky is falling" doomsayers that are overprotective and take the fun out of fishing.
Well I would ask you who is it that helped get our fishery to where it is and who is it that seems to think that it will stay that way when you loosen regs.
(quote)
I see your point. I know the efforts that some have put into it. Hell, if Treats would spend as much time selling screws as he does helping the MN fisheries, he would own a crib on Tonka..
If it aint broke, dont break it approach. But like Treats said, you have to work hard to maintain what you have. I love the having the privlage of using 2 lines when I choose to, I would imagine there are others that would enjoy it as well. If you can make anything more enjoyable, I figure your heading in the right direction.
Edited by ToothyCritter 3/10/2011 4:55 PM
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| it wont be all duckies and bunnies,,were raising the limit on them too |
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Location: Warroad, Mn | I don't think there's a single Canadian province that allows more than one line for open water angling (could be wrong on some of the great lakes) That tells me that they think it's something that will increase harvest. My personal opinion is something like this. Two lines well help you catch your limit for the pan or freezer, or add a muskie or two to your yearly totals. But it will also increase total harvest which I'm not in favor of. As fishing pressure increases for most species more harvest will slowly make the fishery less viable. Doug Johnson |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I can use three lines during soft water, and rarely use more than one. In the Fall casting and using a sucker, which I don't do alot of, I use two.
I don't troll at all. |
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| I am not sure how much of difference it really makes. Our technology is so good, people use some serious equipment to catch fish at this point. How would two lines do better than burning double ten's at this point. The use of extreme equipment and larger presentations has really increased catch rates. We will develop new fisheries and stock more fish to keep up with our electronics, boats, equipment..etc. Using two rods is specific to trolling or adding a live bait rig for the most part, none of which produce the fish large plastics and double 10's have done. Just enjoy time on the water. BR |
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And the money to keep stocking and creating these fisheries will come from???
Get a clue. The fact we have all this new tech that makes fishing easier is a reason to go to more lines??
JS |
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| Guest - 3/10/2011 7:52 PM
And the money to keep stocking and creating these fisheries will come from???
Get a clue. The fact we have all this new tech that makes fishing easier is a reason to go to more lines??
JS
You always are combative and less than pleasant. I simple made a point that current techniques in casting out perform trolling with two rods. Look at the increase in fish in the last few years, new equipment is the reason. You will need to find the money to keep up with the new techniques regardless of two rods. People are already catching the fish. No doubt creating fish and waters to support the current arsenal is not easy, enjoy the challenge. BR |
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Location: Bemidji | BenR - 3/10/2011 7:25 PM
Using two rods is specific to trolling or adding a live bait rig for the most part, none of which produce the fish large plastics and double 10's have done. Just enjoy time on the water. BR
Some of the biggest fish that I hear about every year are caught using suckers and trolling. Have you ever seen the sucker bobber trains on some of the MN lakes? |
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| I tend to disagree BenR. You can troll Dawgs and Double #!0's with great results!!
More lines=more fish caught= more mortality.
I would probably fish with more than one line if this were to pass...make patterning fish much simpler and would allow me to cast and run live bait in the fall. If it passes...I will more than likely take advantage of it. To say otherwise would make me a hypocrite.
I am not for this passing however. It costs alot of money to stock fish and manage a successful fishery. If you build it...they will come. There has to be some ways to manage pressure. With technology now days I think the fish need any advantage there is so they can survive.
My .02.
B Waldera |
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| As a person who was able to spend a good amount of time out east and fish the larger fish on world class waters, both in CA and USA waters, I think you are all speculating. I don't think adding an extra line is a huge ordeal, having fished both based on what side you of the river you are on to an extent. I do find the passion endearing, but why does catching more fish equal more mortality, or at least a measurable amount. Are you all challenged at C&R? |
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Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | No matter if the 2 line bill passes or not we still need more bodies of water to put muskies in because of the explosion in muskie fishing state wide.
Once a lake can sustain it's muskie population, like V, Mille lacs, leech.(natural reproduction) than I would think that other lakes could be stalked...... I still think that 2 lines aren't going to make a big difference..... But those big Party barges with 14-18 lines out do scare me.
A good debate, with some good info guys.
Jerome
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