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Posts: 553
Location: deephaven mn | Thanks Mr. Jonesi and everyone else who has donated a seminar or guide trip to
MI or anywhere else for that matter. I know it happens thanks. |
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| I give them a general safe run through the lake system, so that they can branch out from that, and find fish on their own. I will give away a few basic haunts, but I do not give them my "moneymakers"....I definetly save those my repeat, high tipping clients. This is all a guest should expect when running a gps, why would I give away 15+yrs experience for one low profit day? If they are good enough fishermen to try it on their own, on such big waters, then I would expect that they will find some great waypoints themselves. |
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Location: Altoona, IA | I have fished with 3 differant guides over the last 8 years, one of them once and the other two 4 or 5 times each. The first guide was great, I didn't really know anything about musky fishinng and he definately met our expectations, I do feel bad now days because I didn't realize tipping was common. With that said the other two guides have been top notch, giving advice throughout the season with a pick up of the phone, staying out well past scheduled times, marking maps when you see a guy in a resturant, etc... Oh, also spending an extra hour disecting a large area telling us when to mark the hand held.
I do appreciate what the guides do, I'm sure there are bad ones out there but they definately don't have the glamorous life that some think.
BTW, a guide that frequents this site, gave a FREE seminar to a multi species club I belong to at a location approx 250 miles away from his home. No gas money either, completely free.
Edited by matt ia 11/18/2008 9:45 PM
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Posts: 929
Location: Rhinelander. | Your not going to catch fish on the same spot day after day! I can't believe you'd say that. You may not catch one there everyday but I have spots that are very productive and probably 3 0ut of 5 times there we will at least se fish. Now if this were an unmarked hump on maps and I took a client there and he marked it on gps I would be upset. I think he should respect me enough not to that> I would not do it to a guide if I booked one. Now if I asked him if its ok and told him him I was going to it and he said fine fine it becomes another story.
Pfeiff
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Posts: 427
Location: Wausau | I have hired five guides and when I research the guide, I look for someone who is going to appreciate my background and experience, but also understand what I expect. I look for a guide with personality, not someone who guides b/c they have get paid, but someone who wants to and the money is a bonus. I'm up-front with the fact I don't need to use their equipment, except a lure they tell me to throw - if that lure happens to be soft plastic and I catch a fish and it get's wrecked, I will tip additional money b/c I know the costs. I try to explain it would be more like fishing with a friend, than a new client. I want them to catch a fish just as much as I do. I will add that I have brought along one hand held GPS at the request of the guide. Other guides I have ask for specific GPS coordinated to enter later. These requests I feel are made with confidence knowing I will not share with others, but expect I will fish them myself. I also remind the guide that if over the next few days he's with clients and see's me working a spot I learned from him, to feel free to "cut" and I'll fish second in line. To me, that show's them you respect their job and understand the importance of guiding new clients. I have been extremely happy with 4 out of the 5 guides I have hired and 3 out of the 5 have become better friends who I stay with while out of state and fish with when they are available - which I offer gas, meals and/or beverages. The last one I hired, I believe would do the same if the opportunity presents itself next summer. I think the guide/client relationship should not be approached from a business aspect, but more personal and understanding. |
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Posts: 19
| Jonesi,
Crap!!! Out of all the times we've been out I just realized that you must have thought that I smuggled a GPS on your boat!!!!!! But, we didn't even catch a pike!!! If I see you over ThanksGiving I'm gonna make a weagle disappear with your help!!! Can't wait to hang out next week.
Mike |
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| In response to gps in the boat-
As a guide myself, who was trained by one of the only guide training programs I've heard about to date, have been privy to much information on the lake where I guide, Lac Seul. I understand the sentiment from guides who think their livelihood is being taken from them when people board their vessels with these units, but I do not share that feeling at all.
Technology is changing and is becoming more and more accessible to people everyday, and everyday that goes by it becomes cheaper, so the reality is that more and more people are going to have hand held gps units with them. With that, cell phones are becoming just the same as hand held gps units, so what are you going to do when people board with phones, not let them bring them on??? No.
There is much more to being a guide than simply knowing a spot or two. If you take people out who want to catch fish but only want you for one day of their trip, than that is what you deal with, regardless if you're an outfitter or a guide. You are getting paid to take them out and show them fish. I would hope that you would try and get that person a fish of a lifetime, even if you are only taking them for one day. That being said if you did get that person a fish of a lifetime I would bet that they would book you for another day. Most muskie fishermen know that muskies are not found in one or two spots but rather all over bodies of water.
In conclusion, I would like to reemphasize the simple fact of technology availability. It is simply a matter of time before hand held gps units are found in almost every guests' hand, and what will people do then, electronically jam them from the boat???? No they won't, it will be accepted wether you like it or not,
regards,
Patrick keating,
guide- Lac Seul |
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Posts: 202
Location: Angola, IN | There are guides out there who would never let you in their boat if you had a GPS with you. If they caught you with it, they'd kick you out. Hell, if they catch you fishing their spots without them, you're in big trouble. No, these aren't guides on LOTW or Lac Seul, these are guides who get paid hefty fees to put people on large numbers of large fish...."outfitters" as Worrall would say. But then again, I don't know of many guides who can catch 30+ 50" fish every year either...but they are out there and you won't get in their boat if you have a GPS in your pocket!!!! |
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Posts: 1767
Location: Lake Country, Wisconsin | I have fished with quite a few guides, a few of which have posted on this thread.
To be quite honest, the best guides don't have to protect one or two or three spots because they are so confident in their own abilities they think they can find fish on several different spots. Do they have a gameplan and get irritated when others are in a spot they want to fish? Sure, but the best guides can shrug that off and go find fish somewhere else. Or better yet, fish that spot later on when it is free.
Whining about GPS, taking spots, etc seems pretty unprofessional and also looks the part of someone who isn't entirely confident in their own abilities i.m.o.
Edited by Musky Brian 11/20/2008 2:17 PM
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| One thing I have learned over the years is that there are no secret spots. You say that you would never want a guide to catch you fishing 'their' spots, lol, I love it. Last time I remember, these are public lakes. I can almost guarantee you other people fish those spots too, unless you are in some remote place in Canada or something. The way I see it, if the guides don't like it, find a new job. I will never hide a GPS on someones boat, but I will be sure to ask prior to the trip. I have never hired a guide, but if I did, it would be to learn the lake.
Look at it this way. A friend offers you to go fishing with him. You are both avid fishermen, and everyday you fish is a learning experience. I know everyday is a learning experience for me at least. You come across a great spot throwing 2 different presentations, and you are working as a team. Should I never fish those spots that a friend brought me to just because he offered to take me out fishing in his boat? It could have easily been the other way around, I could have asked him to go fishing in my boat etc. etc. All I know is that I have never told someone I fished with that they can't come back to this spot or whatever. That's ridiculous. I may tell them to not tell anyone else about the spot or keep it on the downlow.
Now I pay $400 and I can't mark the areas or come back to fish them? Please.....I think the guide needs to rethink their profession in a big way.
Edited by Baby Mallard 11/20/2008 2:49 PM
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Posts: 8782
| Baby Mallard - 11/20/2008 2:19 PM
One thing I have learned over the years is that there are no secret spots.
That you know about... |
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Posts: 654
Location: MPLS, MN | There are alot of small points and rock piles not on maps that only people who put in their time know about. I'm not going to risk not being able to fish them by bringng a GPS with. |
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| there used to be secret spots prior to GPS, there are no secret spots anymore... put in your time on water w/ a good GPS and no need for a guide. |
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Posts: 2015
| Steve Wright - 11/20/2008 4:18 PM
there used to be secret spots prior to GPS, there are no secret spots anymore... put in your time on water w/ a good GPS and no need for a guide.
LOL!!! - Ya go to Lac Suel, LOTW, or Eagle with your GPS........and there are no secret spots on any of those lakes... again LOL!
Edited by IAJustin 11/20/2008 8:29 PM
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Posts: 86
Location: University of Hartford | well there are still secret spots on eagle, its just they turn on when your not there, at least in my case.
Alex |
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| I have no problem showing a client spots and having them GPS the spots. Just because they are on a spot later doesn't mean that spot is burned - especially in S.E. WI. where these fish are used to being hunted. Each client is different - some are rookies who just want to catch one - they don't care where - and others hire me to learn not only locations, but techniques, seasonal tendencies , effects of fishing pressure etc. I've taken clients out during a weekday and placed a dozen marker buoys at the breakline on a very productive weedline holding 50+"ers outlining that structure so it was easy to figure out. I wouldn't want to hire a guide who held info back for himself. The longer you guide - you realize that those spots 20 years ago may have been your spots because they were truly unknown. Now with map chips that are reasonably accurate - there are very few secret spots anymore. I still look for them though - Fish are caught everywhere on these lakes - not just a few spots. |
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Posts: 1169
Location: New Hope MN | If you are vehemently opposed to letting your clients use GPS then let them know up front. Just be prepared for them to find someone else.
Otherwise, I suggest spot overload. Take them to 200 spots and let them mark all of them. Mix the good with ok. But again, don’t expect a repeat customer.
Or maybe do the opposite and fish spots very thoroughly. That way you want give up too many spots.
I personally will not take guide that won’t let me GPS the spots. Why would I bother? I could lose or misplace the map, but I am very unlikely to lose my GPS.
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Posts: 61
Location: Sioux Lookout On Canada | This is an issue I have had to deal with and begin to address in the past five years. I noticed through years of guiding that my repeat customers started going out on their own. By sharing information with them year after year, they begun to paint their picture for the future. At first it ticked me off but then I realized that I was successful in doing my job. Here is why.
1) I taught them how to fish.
2) I taught them how to run a boat.
3) After so many trips they knew the landmarks.
4) I made them feel confident about their abilities to help out in the boat, and how to fish. Everything from netting to knots.
5) I made them feel that it was their trip not mine.
6) I stayed connected through the off season.
7) I let them drive the boat home from up the lake or, I let them drive to the spots in the morning.
All of this was done with no GPS. Ultimately, learn the lake for how it appears to you and not what the electronics say. I build my business and services around this approach.
GPS or no GPS, today's world of fishing is changing only now, in the north. Bow mounts and fish finding technology is only starting to catch on. Anglers in the USA are far more equipped and advanced but, if you do not know your equipment you are no better off.
I gave up fighting this topic. It is much more enjoyable meeting new people and being the "ambassador to the local sport fishery", than some loud mouth smuck, who thinks that they own the spots.
Guiding and outfitting is all built around service.
I tell guides "if you want to fish... go fishing, but, if you want to guide, get ready to show your guests a trip of a life time. Everytime.
Guides do not make much money up here in a five month season. Maybe it is time to ask your customer about this next year. Communicate first and then work.
Musky Nate. You are young and determined, jut stick to your game and lighten up some.
Let's stick together on this. It is a big lake up here and you know there are fish all over the lake.
My 2cents worth for now.
Neil Michelin
Canadian Heartland Fishing
"A Guide's guide to fishing Lac Seul"
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Posts: 2089
| Neil,
Great points! I agree 110%. Steve |
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Posts: 1887
Location: syracuse indiana | i also agree. those were words that all guides should live by. i know i will....bill |
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Posts: 74
Location: thunder bay | your very right about that Neil you and I both have been on the same page since i went up to sioux. I was just wanting to know if we were doing it the right way or the wrong. because i know you have dealt with some of the same thing's I have up there. for what everyone has said on this topic, I now know we were doing it the right way not the wrong.
Edited by muskynate 11/24/2008 1:00 PM
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| Guides put in long days in outdoor conditions. They earn what they make. Many people learn how to musky fish by going with a guide. How else would a person know what kind of geart to use.Take GB for example. 5 years ago very few people fished it. Throw in a few guides and a tournament and now it is getting slammed.
but if you are person who loves fishing their home waters, it is not a good idea to start guiding on the water. No one owns the water which is why it is so great  |
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| I once talked with a Indian guide on LOW, and said he charged $150 extra for the GPS
on pressured lakes it don't matter in my opinion the good spots get pounded. |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Neil,
Words well spoken, thanks sir. |
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Posts: 2691
Location: Pewaukee, Wisconsin | Neil, that explains it dead on.
Local lakes with extreme fishing pressure are not the same as out of the way hot spots. I guide on one of the most over fished lakes in the state and offer any and all info to my clients because I want them to become better fishermen and enjoy knowing they can pass it on to others they fish with. Knowledge is key to our fishing future. Knowing how to catch and handle fish will save a few fish from poor releases. Once people get a few fish in the boat they start becoming better at the game and become a teacher also.
Muskies are a renewable resource. Muskies Inc, the DNR and other local deals keep this area stocked to make up for lost fish due to all the pressure. Poor handling is the biggest issue. I see it all the time. Fish on the floor of the boat, dropped fish, long picture sessions, etc.
I thrive to teach people to be better at all aspects of the muskie fishing game. Bringing a GPS out is only a small part of the whole package. I can show you spots on the spots but if you don't know when, why, and with what you might not ever catch a fish on it. This is why I will mark GPG units for them, mark up maps, and explain when and why to fish these spots.
Remember people that these fish patterns change from Spring to Fall. You need to learn the whole picture to truely understand why that GPS spot is so good and when to fish. Also how to go about fishing it the most productive way. ITS JUST A SPOT on a GPS otherwise. I quality guide will teach you all aspects of this spot. A guide with limited info and spots may keep it just for his clients and will not expect you to ever come back.
Sweet spots are hard to find and can take years to learn them. It can only take hours to show clients them. But thats what guides do and thats why poeple hire guides. To shorted the learning curve and get quality time on good spots. Guides should understand that and give clients the most every time out.
(My opninion) REMEMBER that this is on high pressure lakes, not small out of the way honey holes. Out of the way SWEET spots have their own rules. You must follow some different rules by some to get on these spots.
GPS is a tool, just a tool but a very good tool. Just ask your guide before you hire him/her the questions that need to be asked. I recomend clients get this done while sorting through all the guides and lakes they want to fish. Get to know your guide and what he/she has to offer you. Know what you paying for so you get the most out of your guide trip. |
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Posts: 1430
Location: Eastern Ontario | There are different types of guides. some numbers or poppular lake guides won't mind it at all. But out here in the big fish land of the east we are hired to catch big fish and not to learn the water or techniques. It's all about getting the big ones.
Now $500 a day will get you in my boat and get you a great chance at a 50+ but there is no way that I would sell off my fisheries even for $10 000.
I have had a few clients come back on their own, one in 2002 came back fished 5 days and caught 5 fish and no big ones. Hired me for a day and caught 5 including a 50. This fall had a client who in 5 years fishing with me has released a 56, 53.5, 53, 50.5 and 50 or one big fish every single year. This year he fishied on his own for 8-10 days and caught 3 up to 48 and on his first of 2 days with me he caught a 53.
Even if one was to mark my spots of just remember them from fishing with me many times it's doesn't mean they will be able to come back here and nail them. It's huge waters and we all know these fish change locations. There is an advantage to been out there 100 days a year. |
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Posts: 512
| Being upfront with a guide doesn't always work. i hired one in florida a few years back and talked to him on the phone 2-3 times and told him we would be fishing the whole week on the spots he showed us.. we did very well with him on our trip, and ran into him the next day at the ramp, and i thought we were going to come to blows!! made me feel like crap.. he later apologized and it was a shame because we had a great trip, but this ruined it.. and i would never hire him again because of it..
so be warned even if you do discuss it this can happen
Dave |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | As I said before...Outfitter/Guide. Big difference in expectations. |
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Location: Illinois | agrimm - 11/19/2008 11:17 AM I look for a guide with personality, I try to explain it would be more like fishing with a friend, than a new client. I want them to catch a fish just as much as I do. I think the guide/client relationship should not be approached from a business aspect, but more personal and understanding. I'm the oppo, it's business as usual! Put me on fish, please. Sure, we can be friendly, but I'm not paying for another friend. I'm paying for the shot at some nice fish. I did not pay your guide fee to be your groupie/netman! lol
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | You do realize this thread is from 2008... |
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