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| Amen Castmaster |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | ski boats and pwc's on the chains during the peak months ... minocqua, mani, sugar camp (light), eagle river etc... the lakes i'm talking about don't have "traffic" from these kind of boaters and yes, if you knew the area a little better you would understand what i'm talking about ... just like if some knew the 3 line vs. 1 line situation and especially if some knew a few select lakes that might be adversly affected.
the point about ownership was never made ... the point is toward having a better understanding of what you are dealing with that comes from familiarity.
working a spot and having someone troll around or through you happens on waters i've spent a lot of time on ... it's something that we don't have to cope with here due to the current trolling regulations and there are many people who use the smaller lakes who would like to keep it that way.
not sure where this whole sound of the motor thing has come from but it seems to be a made up thing from the counter-point.
i run a merc 2-stroke so obviously i'm not concerned about "noise" ... |
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| Most of the WI "traditionalists" haven't spent much time on water where trolling it allowed. If they had, they'd know that trollers virtually never get in the way.
Trolling isn't a surefire technique. Not by a long-shot. Again, you've obviously never done much of it if you think so.
If you think trolling should be banned because it kills fish, so should live bait. If WI had a clue, they'd say trolling is fine but single hook sucker rigs aren't. Get your traditionalist heads out of the sand. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | Guest - 9/30/2008 7:57 AM
Most of the WI "traditionalists" haven't spent much time on water where trolling it allowed. If they had, they'd know that trollers virtually never get in the way. .
where do you come up with that? |
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| notably, motor trolling is illegal statewide, unless there is an exemption listed in the regulations by lake or county. it's a semantic point, but an interesting one.
GMG, Comparing Ratloff's trolling on Green Bay to trooling up north is ludicrous! You try casting a body of water like GB and tell me how well you do at it!
that's an accurate statement.
so for a better apples-to-apples comparison, we should look at how allowing trolling on selective lakes paired with increased size limits has worked in NW WI.
Barron, Bayfield, Burnett, Washburn, certain lakes in Sawyer County...mostly paired with increased size limits to 40", 45", or even 50".
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| "working a spot and having someone troll around or through you happens on waters i've spent a lot of time on ... it's something that we don't have to cope with here due to the current trolling regulations and there are many people who use the smaller lakes who would like to keep it that way."
I've had more casters cut me off or think nothing of driving right next to me and start casting after they see you are working a fish then problems with trollers but there are jerks and idiots in both camps so it's not fair to label one groups as unsportsmanlike because of the actions of a few.
The sound thing was brought up by another poster when he said that he didn't want trollers ruining the peace and quite of northern lakes. |
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Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | "GMG, Comparing Ratloff's trolling on Green Bay to trooling up north is ludicrous! You try casting a body of water like GB and tell me how well you do at it! "
1) Dennis isn't from GreenBay, he's from Oconomowoc, he began guiding (and trolling) the lakes down here like Ochauchee, Oconomowoc and Pewaukee long BEFORE Green Bay was ever a Musky fishery. Matter of fact he still guides for Musky here, he might even be in the Milwaukee area as we speak. He's written many articles for Musky Hunter and other publications about speed trolling Suicks...DOWN HERE. Dennis isn't a strictly GB angler.
2) Dennis casts up in GB as well as trolls. He'll be the first to tell you so. How do you think he caught that giant tiger this year?
3) both the above are accurate statements.
Edited by Gander Mt Guide 9/30/2008 9:26 AM
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| SO did Dennis fish out Ochauchee by trolling? Of course not, it's as good today as it's ever been and trolling has always been legal there. While I've never fished Ochauchee from what I understand it has intense preasure and probably has more "pontoon trollers" than just about any other lake in Wisconsin yet the fishery is still good. So much for trollers raping and pilaging the lakes. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | reelman - 9/30/2008 9:14 AM
I've had more casters cut me off or think nothing of driving right next to me and start casting after they see you are working a fish then problems with trollers but there are jerks and idiots in both camps so it's not fair to label one groups as unsportsmanlike because of the actions of a few.
True
if you'd read back to some things i've written and then take a look at what lambeau is writing you'll see what the compromise position is. this is a delicate subject with lots of variables. if all things are considered the "traditionalists" could be negotiated with and there could be a logical solution to this debate that might have a chance to find it's way into reality. the current approach that the northern wisconsin tradition is wrong will only give you an annual argument to play with and no results.
knowing the waters where it might apply is the first place to start ... not unlike the success that was found on pelican for the 50" size limit. it may apply there but definitely not on other waters in northern wisconsin. motor trolling is a very similar situation ... |
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Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | 1) Ochauchee has depth and spots for fish to retreat to that probably would never get touched by trollers.
2) With all those pleasure boaters, anglers who fish it regularly wil tell you that you're done out there by 10-12 am until sunset, that leaves half the day where Musky can do there thing and aren't fished as hard as lakes up north. Pewaukee is the same thing.
3) Waukesha county allows trolling, Vilas doesn't. Sorta nice to have the option to fish where I want. If folks don't like the no troll up north, don't go. Minnesota allows it, but 1 line, we don't and allow 3. Sorry, but diversity is a slice of life. Tradition in Vilas is something you won't break no matter how much you say this kills that or this isn't fair or minnesota does this.......the rules are what the rules are. Live with them or don't.
Edited by Gander Mt Guide 9/30/2008 9:38 AM
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| "Sorta nice to have the option to fish where I want"
I couldn't agree more but not allowing trolling is limiting options. Allowing it would still allow you to cast. How would you feel is some lakes were designated "trolling only" and it would be illegal to cast a lure in them?
Tradition may be hard to change but tradition for no legitamite reason makes no sence and should be changed. You harp on the Boulder Junction area for there traditions, why is that? |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | reelman - 9/30/2008 9:49 AM
Tradition may be hard to change but tradition for no legitamite reason makes no sence and should be changed. You harp on the Boulder Junction area for there traditions, why is that?
single hook sucker rigs and shore-sitting ... then the viewing coolers ...
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| Jonny, I agree the things you mention need to be changed but they are tradition after all which is the main argument that the anti-trollers bring up. |
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Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | "How would you feel is some lakes were designated "trolling only""
I wouldn't be nearly as salty as you, I'd deal with it an move on. With 15,000 in-land lakes in Wisconsin and Greenbay, I'm sure I can get my fill of trolling and casting.
We have a traditon of eating turkey for thanksgiving dinner, no legitimate reason, its just tradition. Do I need somebody's OK to do this? Is it right or wrong? Will it kill somebody? Will it limit other's ability to enjoy Thanksgiving?
Vilas and Onieda Counties have a tradition of no trolling, they allowed it for a bit and it was banned again. They aren't saying you can't fish there, they are saying they don't like motor trolling. They do however say that you can row troll, so, row-row-row your boat....or don't. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | the argument has to do with some of the smaller lakes and at least from me wouldn't apply to some bodies of water ... i mentioned a few as examples, the 3 line situation is another, the walleye situation although i don't believe it's as impactful as some spearing allowances are but certainly applies. it's not "just" a traditionalist debate but also is there to protect the resources and was decided by the dnr to do just that.
i grew up in minnesota and trolled a lot when i was younger and know a little about what to do ... some of what i put on the threads is ho-hum tongue-in-cheek for sure but there are lakes that i fish frequently that i would just hate to see trolled by the variety of anglers that would give it a shot. the trollers on this board represent a very small percentage of the folks that would be out there doing it on these kinds of waters if it were allowed. i say allow it on the places where trolling is an art and not a "net" for lack of a better term. |
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| Tradition is that we eat turkey on Thanksgiving but there isn't a law that say you can't eat ham on Thanksgiving, or ever tacos if you want to.
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Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | Tradition means something different to everybody, you may want to eat Tacos, I want nachos. Tradition to Vilas and Onieda Co's means no motor trolling, to Waukesha County it means trolling.
Edited by Gander Mt Guide 9/30/2008 10:40 AM
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| Reelman: "SO did Dennis fish out Ochauchee by trolling?"
Pretty sure Dennis probably releases all of his fish. Many anglers up North still do not.
Reelman: "...it's as good today as it's ever been and trolling has always been legal there."
So you don't know how much better it would be if trolling wasn't allowed, do you?
Reelman: "While I've never fished Ochauchee from what I understand it has intense preasure and probably has more "pontoon trollers" than just about any other lake in Wisconsin..."
And that, to you, is a GOOD thing?
Reelman: "yet the fishery is still good."
Compared to what, exactly?
Reelman: "So much for trollers raping and pilaging the lakes."
I suspect that's exactly what the guys who make the laws said when they signed the dotted line on the "no trolling in Vilas and Oneida Counties" law.
We can argue until the cows come home about whether its right or wrong, but people who know way more than us decided it was best if trolling was left to the people with oars.
Can anybody tell me why that's such a bad thing?
Edited by esoxaddict 9/30/2008 11:05 AM
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| "We can argue until the cows come home about whether its right or wrong, but people who know way more than us decided it was best if trolling was left to the people with oars"
Would these same people"that know more than us" support the 34" size limit, 3 lines, and the proposed early spring muskie season too? If so, I am not sure how much faith I would put into them! Tradition and Biology are two very different things. |
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Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
I feel it's a bad thing whenever fisheries policies are dictated by personal beliefs and not subject to science and "the truth".
Tradition does not mean right or wrong, it just means it's been that way for a long time.
Spearing northerns has been a long time tradition in MN. Science will clearly show you that it has resulted in very few opportunities for trophy northerns in lakes with long spearing traditions.
JS |
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Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | John, MN DNR only allows one line...where's the scientific data that supports more than one hurts the fishery? And using suckers that are over 6" or 12" hurts the fishery? And using trebel hooks without a spinner hurts the fishery?
There's all kinds of regs out there that aren't based on scientific data.
Does LOTW's have a northern spearing tradition? Its one of the best northern trophy waters there is.
Edited by Gander Mt Guide 9/30/2008 11:55 AM
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Location: The desert | john skarie - 9/30/2008 11:35 AM
Spearing northerns has been a long time tradition in MN. Science will clearly show you that it has resulted in very few opportunities for trophy northerns in lakes with long spearing traditions.
JS
Could you point me to the studies showing that clear science?
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Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | Dead Horse I think. I don't want to see this thread locked.
Edited by Gander Mt Guide 9/30/2008 12:19 PM
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Location: Barrington, Il | Jonny,
The DNR did NOT ban trolling. From a biological standpoint they saw no reason not to allow trolling. It would make the wardens jobs alot easier. Yes, there were some big fish kept by a few people backtrolling that angered some people. But there are big fished killed by people fishing suckers every year and thats OK. It was voted down at the spring hearings. That is how we ended up with the position fishing rules. It was voted down by those same guys sitting on shore with single hook sucker rigs, drinking beer by the fire, because you have to "work" for your fish. |
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Location: Detroint Lakes, MN | In the context of spearing northerns, lakes have been literally "speared out" of trophy pike in a very short time.
Case in point Kabekona on Leech. As the word got out that there were big pike there, more spearers showed up. It only took a few years for the avg. pike size to go from above average with good numbers of 40" fish for the County to a below average size in Cass County.
I worked for the DNR office in Walker and heard many stories of lakes being quickly depleted of big pike. Those lakes took years to come back if they ever did.
The common denomintor being lots of spear houses until they fished them out and moved on to the next lake that people found big pike in.
So, there you have "tradition" that goes on which has a very profound and sometimes drastic effect on a fishery.
You can't C&R a speared fish, and trophy pike are very, very vulnerable to the spearer.
For the record, I grew up spearing and know quite a bit about it. I'm not just a jaded critic looking in from the outside.
Now, as for they "science" behind allowing only a line per angler, it has clearly been shown that more fish, all species here not just talking about muskies, can and will die with multiple lines. Especially true when fishing live bait on active fish. When you have multiple bobbers going down, fish often swallow hooks as you can only unhook one at a time. You either are forced to keep them or throw them back to die.
Now I'm not going to argue about every law that MN has, some are not based soley on science, and I don't agree with them if they aren't.
My point is that I've never seen the science that says trolling for muskies will have more of a negative impact on a fishery than casting will.
I've also never heard of a case where that was even thought to have happened.
So I'm of the opinion that the trolling ban was put in place because a segment of the anglers wanted it that way.
Anyway, I'm not really for or against it, couldn't care less. Just enjoying the discussion.
I do very much so fight to keep laws out resource management that are the "will of the people" when they are not supported by biology in MN. That way of running our resources can be a very slippery slope.
JS
Edited by john skarie 9/30/2008 4:33 PM
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Location: Lake Tomahawk, WI | This has probably been mentioned already, but another thing about the no-troll rule I don't care for is the fact that since they don't want you trolling for muskies, you can't troll for walleyes. Or pike or lakers. As I get back into multi-species angling more and more, it kinda sucks that Lindy Rigs, bottom bouncers, etc are unavailable for use. Yeah, I know, wait for the perfect wind and drift. Also, under the current position fishing law, it would be impossible to keep your line vertical while employing many of these techniques (while under power). I know many of the muskie guys who don't want trolling to be legal for muskies wouldn't care if it were legal for other species, except for the fact that it would be un-enforcable to allow species specific trolling. Bummer.
JS |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | jason ... would you support overall or are you thinking specific lakes where you think it should change? we may disagree and we may not but i respect your opinion mostly for your years of experience and time out there seeing almost everythign going on. also, what is your opinion of the general consensus of the guides and generational fishermen in the area? ...
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Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | "As I get back into multi-species angling more and more, it kinda sucks that Lindy Rigs, bottom bouncers, etc are unavailable for use."
What's wrong with drifting them? I do. |
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Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
Two other things brought up;
A treble hook has to be part of a lure in MN. This is because it's to easy to snag with them and it used to be a problem in many rivers, especially on the North Shore. Simple philosophy there.
The size of sucker minnows has to with laws regarding transporting them.
Has nothing to do with the "science" of whether or not they hurt the fishery.
In MN you can't transport live game-fish. Suckers over 12" long are not considered minnows but game fish.
You can fish with them if you buy them from a whole-sale bait dealer that is certified disease free and transport them if you have a sales reciept.
The transport regs are there help stop the spread of exotics.
JS
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Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | "This is because it's to easy to snag with them and it used to be a problem in many rivers, especially on the North Shore."
"used to be a probem"...Its not any more? Which means its an old, antiquated, TRADITIONAL reg that you live with right? Sorta like no-trolling regs in Northern Wisconsin?
"Now, as for they "science" behind allowing only a line per angler, it has clearly been shown that more fish, all species here not just talking about muskies, can and will die with multiple lines."
MN allows two per angler ice fishing? That's ok? especially for the pre-spawn northern pike in Zipple bay?
Edited by Gander Mt Guide 9/30/2008 7:33 PM
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