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Location: minocqua, wi. | i figure the guy has a right to answer so i'm waiting to hear what he has to say ...
the sucker trolling legal piece is speaking for itself ...
interesting to see the late voter rally ... kinda like a cook county election.
Edited by jonnysled 3/11/2013 5:29 PM
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| A lot of the lakes in Vilas are small, deep, oligotrophic lakes, devoid of the typical structure we most commonly fish. They are low desnity fisheries that rely mainly on natural reproduction to sustain a healthy population of muskies. What WI Duck guide is getting at is that casting, in the traditional sense, and in the way most of us approach it, quite simply does not put a lure in front of the fish most of the time. There are certainly fish to be had, but they are the fish who have moved up onto that structure to feed. Easy pickens so to speak. The vast majority of fish, however, often suspend in places and relating to structure in a way that makes them difficult to target casting. The fish are "out THERE" and often at a depth that you'd be wasting your time throwing a bucktail in 10 feet of water. You can go out there and fish like Travis does, but that's not for everyone. You can build yourself a row troller and target them that way. But that's not for everyone either. Open up these lakes to trolling, with multiple lines, and you're creating a situation where one could cover an entire lake in an afternoon. And when that lake has a population of maybe 100 muskies, 80 of which live in a place where they never see a lure go by, it's not difficult to see how a handful of boats could easily impact the fishery, especially when said fishery has a 40" size limit, and only supports a population of fish over 40" because nobody is fishing for them. There is little stocking and even less money for stocking. There is little enforcement and even less money and personnel for enforcement. We're talking about infertile lakes with limited forage, and no means to replenish them other than natural reproduction. Opening up trolling would provide a tremendous fishing opportunity. But only for a very short time, as those fisheries are really only what they are because they are relatively unfished.
Once can easily point to some other lake in some other place that hasn't been hurt by trolling, but take regular stocking out of that equation, and what does it look like? When you start taking water chemistry, avilable forage, etc. into account, it becomes easy to see why 40" is still a big fish in Northern WI. Factor in the stresses of climate change, invasive species, spearing, exploding bass populations...
Nobody can point to studies that prove trolling would hurt the fisheries because there have never been studies done on these types of waters before and after trolling was allowed.
But if ten more fish are caught in a given weekend in the summer and one of those fish is accidentally killed, on a lot of lakes you've just wiped out 20% of the reproducing population of muskies in that lake in a single season. |
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Location: Madison, WI | jonnysled - 3/11/2013 5:27 PM
i figure the guy has a right to answer so i'm waiting to hear what he has to say ...
the sucker trolling legal piece is speaking for itself ...
interesting to see the late voter rally ... kinda like a cook county election.
What is the sucker trolling piece saying? |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | 17 anonymous votes with zero commentary or proof of a ticket, warden name, lake location or story to go along with it
overwhelming number of fishermen work within the current law without concern and fish as it's intended
the "clear up the trolling laws" piece doesn't apply
they are 1-line musky counties until October-November (6-7 week season) yet people think adding 3-line motor trolling won't affect anything ...
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Location: oswego, il | EA, just because you can troll does not mean you will catch more muskies. there are places I,fish where slowing down, casting and dragging a sucker is far more productive. my better days have been between the 55's in water temp. with all the comparables that are in wisconsin, I just dont see it being an issue. just because you troll a lure near a fksh does not mean it will eat. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | how much sucker fishing you doing in june, july and august Todd? |
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Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Wasn't there concern on here last year from some MN fisherman over others trolling too deep in MN when the water temps were mid to upper forties? I could have sworn I saw guys pleading with others to please stop trolling deep in the water column as they were effectively catching fish, and pulling them up to the warm upper layer temps. I believe they were finding lots of floaters and thus the concern.
This is coming from guys that have been allowed to troll for some time now, and don't quote me on MN regs but I think one line.
How upset would I be making people if I were allowed to troll two of my 3 lines 35' down with wire in 78° water temps? Is that potential for hurting a fishery?
I don't know of anyone that has been ticketed yet for dragging a sucker and casting. It's pretty easy to drift with the boat with suckers out and cast while bumping the trolling motor to stay in position, or running it into the wind to hold on a spot. DNR personnel know what most musky fisherman are doing, and I am sure only ticket if it is blatent.
Regulations confusing..Maybe only if you aren't reading the regs in my opinion. It clearly states where you can troll, and where you cannot. If you are worried whether what you are doing is trolling than perhaps let your conscious decide what you should be doing. The size limits and bag limits are much more confusing than that of trolling or not trolling, but I don't see a push to make that the same state wide.
Edited by CiscoKid 3/11/2013 7:35 PM
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jonnysled - 3/11/2013 7:04 PM how much sucker fishing you doing in june, july and august Todd? No, I really have no interest in using any live bait anymore. However, 20 some years ago I used to fish smaller suckers while I was casting until July as I recall. I'm pretty sure the local bait shops still sell live bait all summer (especially for walleye), so that three line option with live bait is there even if people are not taking advantage of it. Actually, your question seems a little insincere Sled because you simply cherry picked one point and jammed on it, but only after diluting the basic premise. So, I'll just ask you point blank; can you explain how a 2 man crew trolling six artificial lures is going to harm the fishery more than the same two-man crew casting with 4 suckers during June, September, October, and November? Point taken on the deep water trolling, but what's preventing someone from drifting the center of these lakes with deep suckers while sitting on their rump? What Jordan said on record... no comments? |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | you ever try to keep a sucker alive in june, july, august jerry? apparently not.
it's not cherry-picking, it's stating the obvious and pretty easy actually to anyone familiar with what is going on and what potentially changes as a result.
it's pretty obvious i (and many more) disagree with jordan. it's why the law is what it is today and how it will hopefully continue to be.
my fear is that trolling will trump all (like the lazy baiting of deer/bears for armchair weekenders) and that we will eventually end up being negotiated to a line-limit like they are in MN. as it stands it's pretty much a single line summer (june-sept.) and when temps. drop down below 55 deg. (oct. - nov.) it's multi-line sucker time.
3-line trolling in june, july, august vs. single line casting (the way it is today) will make a significant impact ... |
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Location: 31 | CiscoKid - 3/11/2013 7:34 PM Wasn't there concern on here last year from some MN fisherman over others trolling too deep in MN when the water temps were mid to upper forties? I could have sworn I saw guys pleading with others to please stop trolling deep in the water column as they were effectively catching fish, and pulling them up to the warm upper layer temps. I believe they were finding lots of floaters and thus the concern. This is coming from guys that have been allowed to troll for some time now, and don't quote me on MN regs but I think one line. How upset would I be making people if I were allowed to troll two of my 3 lines 35' down with wire in 78° water temps? Is that potential for hurting a fishery? I don't know of anyone that has been ticketed yet for dragging a sucker and casting. It's pretty easy to drift with the boat with suckers out and cast while bumping the trolling motor to stay in position, or running it into the wind to hold on a spot. DNR personnel know what most musky fisherman are doing, and I am sure only ticket if it is blatent. Regulations confusing..Maybe only if you aren't reading the regs in my opinion. It clearly states where you can troll, and where you cannot. If you are worried whether what you are doing is trolling than perhaps let your conscious decide what you should be doing. The size limits and bag limits are much more confusing than that of trolling or not trolling, but I don't see a push to make that the same state wide. Travis, I hear what you're saying and you're delivering some valid, well thought out points. But regarding whether or not some people find the existing position fishing rule is confusing, many have already stated that there is a problem with it right here on this thread, throw in the likes of a seasoned veteran like Saric who has not fished there with suckers for 15 years and what do you have; “I can tell you that the position fishing rule has kept me from fishing suckers in Vilas and Oneida counties for the last 15 years. In fact Steve and I will not hold a fall school in the St. Germain area because of the confusion with the position fishing rule. I think the new proposal clarifies this.” It's hard to put forth a better argument than what Jordan Weeks said about position fishing equaling trolling, as well as it being poster child for bad rules; “position fishing IS trolling (I let my training in Physics tell me it is impossible to keep a line vertical while working the trolling motor). I also firmly believe that some people are in the same boat as I. Opportunity is where the position fishing rule comes into play (for musky anglers). If the wording of the current rule caused some anglers to worry about a ticket or not fish in fear of a ticket then this change needs to be made. Fishing and hunting rules that need interpretation are bad rules (position fishing is the poster child for bad rules).” Everyone is very well entrenched and now it's just a matter of getting out the vote… see you at the polls. |
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| I don’t quite get why some feel that the issue of ‘Position Fishing’ with a Sucker is a gray area. The law is written pretty clearly. It says that you can use your trolling motor to hold the boat in place over structure, or maybe to fight the effects of wind. But you are using the motor to PREVENT the boat from moving. But if you are intentionally moving the boat all around the lake while a Sucker is hanging over the edge---then it’s not position fishing---you’re trolling. Live bait or artificial bait, no difference---it’s trolling a bait. Behind the boat or over the side---it’s still trolling. Slow or a little faster---it’s still trolling.
There seems to be a double standard at play here. If a guy harvests a fish illegally by snagging it, well that’s breaking the law and not right, and some people may be rightfully indignant. Or if we keep a fish that’s too short, it’s illegal and not right. But…if we take a Musky by trolling a Sucker when that’s not legal either, how is that OK?
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Location: minocqua, wi. | Jerry Newman - 3/11/2013 8:52 PM
many have already stated that there is a problem with it right here on this thread, throw in the likes of a seasoned veteran like Saric who has not fished there with suckers for 15 years
18 out of 119 = many??
and all anonymous with no stories except one claiming that he was yelled at by some dude, another report from a newspaper that is refuted by credible sources (still want to hear the story on that one).
Jim Saric - sells magazines, produces shows, sells spots at fishing clinics ... from his perspective i'd probably want the same thing he does. easy fishing, sell more magazines, book more clinics and get more shows produced. he has commercial interests and others have different interests. not a slight on anyone, just different people wanting different things for different reasons.
saying summertime trolling in vilas and oneida counties won't be "different" is simply not true.
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Location: 31 | jonnysled - 3/11/2013 9:01 PM Jerry Newman - 3/11/2013 8:52 PM many have already stated that there is a problem with it right here on this thread, throw in the likes of a seasoned veteran like Saric who has not fished there with suckers for 15 years 18 out of 119 = many?? and all anonymous with no stories except one claiming that he was yelled at by some dude, another report from a newspaper that is refuted by credible sources (still want to hear the story on that one ). Jim Saric - sells magazines, produces shows, sells spots at fishing clinics ... from his perspective i'd probably want the same thing he does. easy fishing, sell more magazines, book more clinics and get more shows produced. he has commercial interests and others have different interests. not a slight on anyone, just different people wanting different things for different reasons. saying summertime trolling in vilas and oneida counties won't be "different" is simply not true. Sled, I told you that I have sucker fished in June, late June wasn't really that much different than early September… obviously dependent on the weather/how deep your pockets are. You can disagree all you want with what Jordan said, but he's an expert and you're not, and you can't point to anything recent to contradict the veracity of his statements other than how easy it is to see with “anyone familiar”. But are the people that are “so familiar with it” also wanting to “perhaps” keep it to themselves, or maybe you are just a little too close to it? Anyway, you're effectively saying that there's really no difference between trolling and casting with suckers, except for those two or three months. I'm honestly not buying what you're selling because if you were really concerned about the three lines having such an impact, I'd think you'd be lobbying for one line all year. However you want to argue it go right ahead, I certainly understand your fear, but please just try to keep it between the ditches between now and then… I'll see you at the polls.
Edited by Jerry Newman 3/11/2013 9:17 PM
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| Personal experience on 300-600 acre lakes, casting is more effective than trolling for catching fish. On larger bodies of water trolling is a great way to cover water. Smaller lakes, especially suspended fish you are better off casting. You can keep your boat over the bait fish are keep your lures in the zone longer. It is more effective and efficient to cast structure and open water on smaller lakes. Again this has been my experience on this size of lake. BR |
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Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Jerry I will be honest in saying I am glad Saric and others don't come here in the Fall to fish suckers!  Some of the lakes are crowded enough with guys that currently troll suckers up an down the breaks with no regard to another angler (not syaing jim wouldn't mind others mind you).
I am sure a lot of guys simply want it as they are drooling over the thought of being able to troll open water in the summertime on some of the little gems of the northwoods. Heck I am one of them! Part of me would love to see it pass, but the other part knows it *could* be bad. Yes there is speculation in that.
If you thought the high water temp concern on here was bad before just wait until we can troll in Vilas, Oneida, and the other counties with small, deep lakes. How much flack will I take for running my baits consistently and efficiently 20+ feet deep?
Mmmmmmm the more I think of it the more I hope it passes. I'm getting all twitchy just thinking of the possabilities.
Jerry I understand why you want it. You are trying as hard to convince us why it would be good for your own motives just like those of us that are against are trying to convince you why it's not good. However you are just thinking of muskies. Most here are just thinking of muskies. Logical being a musky site. The WALLEYES will take a beating. I hope I am wrong though.
Edited by CiscoKid 3/11/2013 9:25 PM
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Location: Oconto Falls, WI | BenR - 3/11/2013 9:15 PM
Personal experience on 300-600 acre lakes, casting is more effective than trolling for catching fish. On larger bodies of water trolling is a great way to cover water. Smaller lakes, especially suspended fish you are better off casting. You can keep your boat over the bait fish are keep your lures in the zone longer. It is more effective and efficient to cast structure and open water on smaller lakes. Again this has been my experience on this size of lake. BR
Until you find a small lake with whitefish and need to keep your bait, a big one at that, in that 30' zone to contact the biggies of the lake. Only one way to do that effectively and efficiently. I believe Gelb has taken up that method so I find it hard to believe casting is the best method. Sure some days it might be. Others not so much. Gelb row TROLLS for a reason, and I feel has proven it is more effective in some cases than casting in N. WI.
Edited by CiscoKid 3/11/2013 9:29 PM
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Location: minocqua, wi. | try just reading what i type instead of telling me what i said. it's more accurate that way. i know it's frustrating for you but give it a shot. travis and WI-Duckguide are saying the same thing, all from experience. nobody is trying to "keep it from anyone" ... they are wanting folks to consider that there are some key changes that will come about and not all good ... again, perspective.
our president claims a lot of things and is the "expert" too ... i don't agree with him on many things either.
if i were an older guy who got sore casting and wanted to have my picture taken with a huge musky or fill my lungelog with numbers i would probably vote the same way that you want me to.
i just want jerry to write his secrets on sucker fishing in 70 - 85 degree water, or take me with him. i'll buy the book.
Edited by jonnysled 3/11/2013 9:30 PM
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| CiscoKid - 3/11/2013 9:21 PM
BenR - 3/11/2013 9:15 PM
Personal experience on 300-600 acre lakes, casting is more effective than trolling for catching fish. On larger bodies of water trolling is a great way to cover water. Smaller lakes, especially suspended fish you are better off casting. You can keep your boat over the bait fish are keep your lures in the zone longer. It is more effective and efficient to cast structure and open water on smaller lakes. Again this has been my experience on this size of lake. BR
Until you find a small lake with whitefish and need to keep your bait, a big one at that, in that 30' zone to contact the biggies of the lake. Only one way to do that effectively and efficiently. I believe Gelb has taken up that method so I find it hard to believe casting is the best method. Sure some days it might be. Others not so much. Gelb row TROLLS for a reason, and I feel has proven it is more effective in some cases than casting in N. WI.
What is the only way to keep a bait down there, jigging a bondy? I know gelb catches some fish, but I don't think he catches enough fish to ruin a fishery and nobody probably knows how to troll the lakes better than anyone I guess. Honestly how many fish does he score a season? BR |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | and there is no powdered sugar on the muzzle of the 50 pounders he catches ... :0) |
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| jonnysled - 3/11/2013 9:35 PM
and there is no powdered sugar on the muzzle of the 50 pounders he catches ... :0)
Lets be honest, he caught one 50lber correct? however I will concede that it did not stay in the system and perhaps trollers are bad for the survival of fishing;) BR |
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Location: 31 | CiscoKid - 3/11/2013 9:17 PM I'm getting all twitchy just thinking of the possabilities. Jerry I understand why you want it. You are trying as hard to convince us why it would be good for your own motives just like those of us that are against are trying to convince you why it's not good. You're so wrong Travis… my only concern is to protect the resource. Therefore, my plan is to be on these lakes as much as possible when they first open up to trolling, but only to educate and release the fish properly before the pontoon boaters can get a hold of them J Haha… LOL, you bet I'm drooling… but I also happen to agree with what the experts are saying or I wouldn't be debating it. If it passes we should fish! |
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| jonnysled - 3/11/2013 9:01 PM
18 out of 119 = many??
1 out of infinity = too many. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | if it passes i just wanna watch you fishing suckers in the summer ... |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | Matt DeVos - 3/11/2013 9:44 PM
jonnysled - 3/11/2013 9:01 PM
18 out of 119 = many??
1 out of infinity = too many.
unless they were trolling them and breaking the law |
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Location: Minocqua, WI | Nobody will be fishing suckers in summer and thats the problem... and what about walleyes... this is not a musky only issue. If trolling is legal, it is LEGAL for everything and everybody. I know what I could do running a trolling spread here and there are plenty of guys who have way more trolling experience than I. Just think about your favorite small to med sized lake, which is almost all of them around here by comparison to even modest MN lakes, and watching a few boats running full spread of trolling rigs all summer and fall. Many big, slow growing fish using open water refuge away from angling pressure for much of the year will be exposed. For those who cast, it should make your stomach churn. If you dont get why this is a terrible idea, then you are either one greedy SOB licking your chops at the thought of it or your ignoring all of the current knowledge we possess about big muskies and walleyes in northern WI. They could easily make position fish legal without opening up 3 line motor trolling across the board. |
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Location: Minocqua, WI | .
Edited by WI Duck Guide 3/11/2013 11:20 PM
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Location: Minocqua, WI | As for the "wait until the biologists says wrong and then fix it idea" Jerry Newman; Everyone is so happy to say how the DNR doesnt know anything about our fisheries and wildlife populations or how to manage them, but the minute their "study" supports your cause they are suddenly 100% right about everything no matter how much is actually known. The impact this would have on the fishery will be the only study available on any scale... look at the issues it has caused in the 70's 80's etc... Pretty sure all of the technology we have these days would make those lakes pretty small in hurry when you can cover so much water with such good tech. Large WI muskies and walleyes are slow growing. They need time and reprieve from angling pressure. A 11-12 year old female musky up here is around 40 inches; that same fish on say Vermillion or St. Claire could easily be a 4 footer. Also, once our fish surpass that 4' mark they grow much slower... .25 to .50 inch per year is considered decent to good. Some don't even reach 48" by 20 years old. Add on top of that the much smaller lake size which makes fish easier to target and is composed of a much smaller population of fish, especially trophies, to begin with... its not a good idea. "A method of catching fish is irrelevant?" Not if said method is increasing catch rates, thereby increasing fish handling which will undoubtedly increase mortality, especially during the warmer monthes when fish are deep and brought to the surface as Travis mentioned. Tell me how much it "wont hurt" but please first tell me "what will it help?" The problem is, it doesn't have to hurt much to have an impact on trophy fish. And thats what we all want in northern WI right...?
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Location: 31 | Here's something for everyone to honestly contemplate… let's hypothetically say that you can either keep the three line deal, but then it's open to trolling. OR the law is changed to only one line mirroring Minnesota, one or the other… not both. Have you made your choice?
Frankly, I just don't buy that some of you are so worried about the resource yet wanting to maintain the three lines for their traditional fall fishing. What I see here is a few sportsmen fighting change because they're afraid of it, even though there's no scientific basis to maintain an unjustifiable status quo.
Sled, I'm convinced you can win every debate through attrition.
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Location: minocqua, wi. | i'm still interested in your warm-water musky sucker tactics ... if you have mastered that you'd make the cover of the magazine your reference materials come from.
do you have anything yourself to say?
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Location: Sawyer County, WI | Jerry Newman - 3/11/2013 11:25 PM
Here's something for everyone to honestly contemplate… let's hypothetically say that you can either keep the three line deal, but then it's open to trolling. OR the law is changed to only one line mirroring Minnesota, one or the other… not both. Have you made your choice?
One line is fine by me. I simply don't have enough arms to cast two lines at the same time. |
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