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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Nope, not springs, and no, the area those weird depressions were in wasn't real big, maybe a cast across from any angle. A spring in sand and gravel really sticks out because of the way the gravel is dispersed around the moving water. These were perfectly formed holes with no sign of any disturbed sand or gravel on the edges. Weird, and I'm going back next year because the fishing was enjoyable and the video very interesting. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | there will be a permanent shack there with a key in your name next season Steve ... we are putting our stake in the ground ... err, ice. |
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Location: NorthCentral WI | Good reading guys.
Sled, thank you for mentioning Mark Lijewski. That dude can catch open water muskies more consistently than anyone I've ever seen. I still have a little man-crush on him.
Musky Madness III. Enough said!!!
BTW, when they're fishing Lake of the Woods, Lappen tries to tell Mark that fish will not be caught if grass is the predominant weed... and Mark politely calls him out. If you're familiar with that part, are they referring to sand grass? If so, that's too funny. As this discussion makes sand grass sound like gold carpet. |
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Location: NorthCentral WI | I am not fortunate enough to have GPS yet so I rely on paper maps especially when fishing any new water. I tried the color coding last night on a map that I fish often and it opened my eyes to a couple different things. Good topic. Carry on. |
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Location: Madtown, WI | Great discussion. Thier is somthing to be said about having structure marked up even if you are doing drifts along or around the stucture and abysis. Even though Travis likes the open water he contacts a lot of fish just off structure on the edge of the open water. I tried to show him how knowing the exact layout of the structure, and having it marked out can pay dividends, even if you are doing wide drifts.... not sure it ALL sunk in huh Travis 
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Location: Oconto Falls, WI | It sunk in Cory, but there are lakes that I catch many a fish away from any structure. You just haven’t been on them with me. ? Keep in mind I am talking about how to fish deep water and suspended here, and not fishing rock humps that come up shallow nor shallower structure. I don’t exactly consider fishing a rock hump that comes up to 10’ out of 50’ of water deep water fishing. That is fishing shallow structure, and that is where your mapping comes in handy as not to blow the breakline of that hump. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | there's the data-junkie himself ...
great opportunity to see the details in-person if you sign up for the Capital City outing to AML ... great learning experience for anyone who is interested in not only going fishing, but learning what these guys are talking about.
jlong's response to his color-mapping article (we didn't have gps at the time) reminds me of when everyone was coming out of the paper map, triangulating and sonar searching times and into the first major movements into the use of gps for more than just navigating. long-necks, fireside talks at a little white cabin in memory along with another the fix forum had everyone moving the marble way out there from where most had been before.
some guys really stepped out ...
try competing with cory for a week without knowing or working details ... lol it'll learn ya up quick!! |
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| jonnysled - 6/19/2012 3:48 PM
the fix forum had everyone moving the marble way out there from where most had been before.
I miss that place. |
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| Wow - interesting reading.
Very technical - maybe too much so.
I am intense and analytical / O.C.D. but you guys are way beyond me.
I think I will find good shallow structure, near a deep basin. Fish the shallower stuff, then turn, put the trolling motor on #4, cover water and fish the basin.
I tend to over-analyze fishing. Sometimes you just need to cast and repeat. |
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| How is the night bite out the deep water!? I cant wait to try this new side of musky fishing this summer |
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Location: Contrarian Island | i have heard some so called open water experts say in articles or online forums that they have utilized their gps over open water to mark fish contacts/caught/hits etc and have found it to be as useful as us "shallow" water guys marking fish/weeds etc... maybe there is more out there than truly randomness to where fish are caught?...hmmm maybe/maybe not.. ..like sled says or eludes to some open water guys might not be utilizing the technology we have today to it's fullest to catch more fish... sled, why would you ever mark up a lake. |
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| I was reading this thread and got kind of dizzy, but then had a MN cooler or two or three until I got my blood alcohol level up to .15, and now it seems clearer, the dizziness has gone away and I am #*^@ ready to hit a golf ball!! |
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Location: Oconto Falls, WI | BNelson - 6/20/2012 6:45 PM
i have heard some so called open water experts say in articles or online forums that they have utilized their gps over open water to mark fish contacts/caught/hits etc and have found it to be as useful as us "shallow" water guys marking fish/weeds etc... maybe there is more out there than truly randomness to where fish are caught?...hmmm maybe/maybe not.. ..like sled says or eludes to some open water guys might not be utilizing the technology we have today to it's fullest to catch more fish... sled, why would you ever mark up a lake...
Sometimes guys that write articles need some "meat" to write an article about, and thus talk about using waypoints and such. Sure I could drop waypoints down, but like I said I personally don't feel it is needed for the true open water. Deep structure, sure mark away.
Again for someone starting out in open water I say keep it simple, and just cover water and learn what each lake has to offer as not every lake acts the same for the deep bite. Some you have to incorporate deep structure, and others you have to be in open, featureless water. If the deep water newbie wants to incorporate waypoints and icons have at it.
Landry has the right idea to start out, except for the speed deal. I will say this once. For the most part run your baits Ssssssssloooooooooooooooow.
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Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Guest - 6/20/2012 6:20 PM
How is the night bite out the deep water!? I cant wait to try this new side of musky fishing this summer :-)
Just as good as during the day. Sometimes better, and sometimes worse. |
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Location: north central wisconsin | BNelson - 6/20/2012 6:45 PM
i have heard some so called open water experts say in articles or online forums that they have utilized their gps over open water to mark fish contacts/caught/hits etc and have found it to be as useful as us "shallow" water guys marking fish/weeds etc... QUOTE]
It works, and something we started doing in vilas in the middle 90's, at first so we could disect the basin with a number of drifts. I don't fish up there much at all anymore, but in the early days after learning from some abyss bombers, it was casting the depths, painstakingly marking with handheld/remembering where things 'happened', coming back in attempt to repeat as well as trying to duplicate elsewhere. While we contact/ed enough fish not seemingly relating to anything, some of these spots in the abyss are perrennial producers even with no presence of bait, and the puzzle pieces began to fit.... See, the primary systems we fish/ed has a great cisco pop, but low and behold I'd discovered a steady flow of nutrients that are not randomly deposited, right under my nose. I know my garden likes food...... Great discussion guys.
Edited by Reef Hawg 6/20/2012 10:20 PM
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Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Jason my question for you is are those spots that are perrennial producers for you that small that only by marking them can you make that drift again? I venture to guess not. You are right there are spots that tend to always hold fish, but man the lakes we are talking about are not huge. Pretty easy to remember the following year what driftline typically works, and which ones don't. I don't need a GPS to jog my memory. Maybe 30 years from now I will spend more time with that GPS because my memory may be shot.
Reef Hawg - 6/20/2012 10:10 PM
BNelson - 6/20/2012 6:45 PM
i have heard some so called open water experts say in articles or online forums that they have utilized their gps over open water to mark fish contacts/caught/hits etc and have found it to be as useful as us "shallow" water guys marking fish/weeds etc... QUOTE]
It works, and something we've been doing up in Vilas for a decade or so. I don't fish up there but an iota as much as I used to, but in the early days, it was casting the depths, painstakingly marking with handheld/remembering where things 'happened', coming back in attempt to replicate as well as trying to duplicate elsewhere. While we contact/ed enough fish not seemingly relating to anything, some of these spots in the abyss are perrennial producers, and the puzzle pieces began to fit. Of course, the primary systems we fish/ed has a great cisco pop, but low and behold I'd discovered a steady flow of nutrients that are not randomly deposited, right under my nose. I know my garden likes food... Great discussion guys.
Edited by CiscoKid 6/20/2012 10:18 PM
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Location: north central wisconsin | Agreed, some/most of the spots(you know them) are quite easy to find again and again on the small ponds. In fact, we were up this past weekend, and the two of us decided to fish with another guy who hadn't deep water fished before. We 'lined' up our drift according to how we 'used' to do it, and bombed away. Had a ball. However, if we had either of our own boats, we have enough waypoints that are not perfectly 'in line' with the drift, though too important to get 'just close enough' to, that we do things differently. We are limited on time anymore, and instead of setting up multiple drifts to hit a couple key spots, we'll bump ourselves along to and fro, hitting the cherry's, and off to the next lake, or better yet, a river somewhere. But yeah, though perhaps not as productive on a regular basis, it sure was fun drfting the old fashioned way this past weekend. The other guys beer tasted good in the other guys boat with the other guys truck at the landing too!
Edited by Reef Hawg 6/20/2012 10:51 PM
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| A few things to think about from a divers perspective.
I'll assume we are talking about a lake instead of a river. Deep is a relative term. You want to fish at or above the Thermocline. Oxygen levels may be quite low below it in summer. Higher end electronics can sometimes pick up the difference in water density at the high end of the manual sensitivity. How clear is the water? Don't expect a fish to come up 20 feet in a lake where you can't see your toes in waist deep water. Trolling can cover a lot of water, If it's permitted where you fish, and keeps the lure at a somewhat steady depth. Fish that are over deep open water are generally on schooled bait. As they push it, the bait may head towards the surface. Watch for birds working the area. Try lures that somewhat represent the prey. Hope this helps |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | Reef Hawg - 6/20/2012 10:29 PM
Agreed, some/most of the spots(you know them) are quite easy to find again and again on the small ponds. In fact, we were up this past weekend, and the two of us decided to fish with another guy who hadn't deep water fished before. We 'lined' up our drift according to how we 'used' to do it, and bombed away. Had a ball. However, if we had either of our own boats, we have enough waypoints that are not perfectly 'in line' with the drift, though too important to get 'just close enough' to, that we do things differently. We are limited on time anymore, and instead of setting up multiple drifts to hit a couple key spots, we'll bump ourselves along to and fro, hitting the cherry's, and off to the next lake, or better yet, a river somewhere. But yeah, though perhaps not as productive on a regular basis, it sure was fun drfting the old fashioned way this past weekend. The other guys beer tasted good in the other guys boat with the other guys truck at the landing too!
i smell what you're steppin' in Jason!! i was in icon-boy's boat a few times this season where i could just say hey, let's go see if the next one is at home, and there the fat-ass would be!! ... i'd be ahead of the curve if i just invested in new electronics for him so that i didn't have to start mapping all over again! i'm starting all over but with brandy new toys hoping to get the data rebuilt soon!! my hope is that cory, brad or my other bud end up boat-less while up-north so i can offer them to "just take mine" ... hoping it'll come back home with more data.
i'd pick a piece a crap boat with a gps filled with data over a nice boat with none ... |
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Location: Oconto Falls, WI | jonnysled - 6/21/2012 6:55 AM
i smell what you're steppin' in Jason!! i was in icon-boy's boat a few times this season where i could just say hey, let's go see if the next one is at home, and there the fat-ass would be!! ... i'd be ahead of the curve if i just invested in new electronics for him so that i didn't have to start mapping all over again! i'm starting all over but with brandy new toys hoping to get the data rebuilt soon!! my hope is that cory, brad or my other bud end up boat-less while up-north so i can offer them to "just take mine" ... hoping it'll come back home with more data.
i'd pick a piece a crap boat with a gps filled with data over a nice boat with none ...
Ah yes let someone else do all the hard work for you I see. So were all of your icons and waypoints out in no-mans land from you, or the buddies that fished with you?
This thread is an eye opener for me to see how many people have become relient on their GPS. Down right married to it. For the sake of sanity for all of you I hope nothing happens to your GPS!
Sled your example of jumping to the next icon above, and contacting fish is valid for structure fishing as I am sure that is what you were doing. A different game out in the open. Structure fish tend to be more of ambush predators like you mentioned with your blade of grass example. They are NOT ambush predators out in the open.
Edited by CiscoKid 6/21/2012 7:15 AM
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Location: minocqua, wi. | there are a lot of us who have worked as a team as our friendships have developed. we share knowledge all the time, share expenses, places to stay, sucker-tanks, boat buying and restoration tips, pizza, time with each others kids/dogs, tipups, atv's ... heck, we all even know the names and activities of each other's dogs ... lol ... and all sorts of other stuff.
best group of friends a guy could ask for!
travis ... this just-in. deep water has structure too
the goal is contacting and catching fish, right??
Edited by jonnysled 6/21/2012 7:19 AM
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Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Absolutely deep water has structure. To be an ambush predator the muskie will need to be on the bottom blending in with the surroundings be that weeds, rocks, or ledges. To have weeds it has to be a shallow enough structure to which I do not consider it deep water anymore. Deep structures will have fish on them, and above them. You are only talking about fish on them with your GPS icon data talk. I am talking about the fish that are SUSPENDED above that structure.
Like I said GPS makes sense for humps. Deep water fishing is a lot more than just hitting humps. Ever fish a 30-40’ flat that is relatively featureless? Say a mud flat? I venture not as you wouldn’t have an icon there. I can tell you that the fish are on those flats!
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Location: minocqua, wi. | hold - go - hold ...
don't forsake the hold
you believe that it has to be shallow to grow vegetation??
oh, glasss-ah-hopppa
deep mud is great for late fall suckers ... i'll show you a spot that's money.
also ... structure. a predator would try to hide behind a bowling ball or a baseball if it's the only "structure" around. heck, at steve's mud-hole sewer he calls a lake (moen's chain) a 1' change in depth is a shelf relatively speaking. find it. concept works throughout the body of water. and steve, you know that is a term of endearment of-course.
Edited by jonnysled 6/21/2012 7:44 AM
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Location: Contrarian Island | well it's interesting that Jason (reef hawg) comes on and says that he has learned/found that there are "sweet spots" out in open water where they could be relatively small and icons laid down will pay dividends on return visits...i'm interested to hear from other open water guys that spend a lot of time and catch a lot of fish out there what they have found...what if in your drifting travis you are a cast length off a sweet spot and you might think you are in the right area simply because the lake is small and you know the lake but someone else like Jason goes thru and goes thru the area he thinks is the sweet spot and catches a fish but you didn't..now i'm not saying it is needed out there but from Jasons post above he has found that maybe their isn't so much randomness out there as we might think? other open water guys have talked about there being less randomness out there and utilizing gps and i have a hard time believing it was just filler for an article.... the open water thing is interesting to me and i'd like to know more from some other open water guru's...keep the info coming...
have you found that laying down icons for fish contacted over the course of say a weekend pays off by coming back to those same fish/areas that trip? or do those fish move around too much out there?
Edited by BNelson 6/21/2012 7:47 AM
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Location: Oconto Falls, WI | BNelson - 6/21/2012 7:44 AM
well it's interesting that Jason (reef hawg) comes on and says that he has learned/found that there are "sweet spots" out in open water where they could be relatively small and icons laid down will pay dividends on return visits...i'm interested to hear from other open water guys that spend a lot of time and catch a lot of fish out there what they have found...what if in your drifting travis you are a cast length off a sweet spot and you might think you are in the right area simply because the lake is small and you know the lake but someone else like Jason goes thru and goes thru the area he thinks is the sweet spot and catches a fish but you didn't..now i'm not saying it is needed out there but from Jasons post above he has found that maybe their isn't so much randomness out there as we might think? other open water guys have talked about there being less randomness out there and utilizing gps and i have a hard time believing it was just filler for an article.... the open water thing is interesting to me and i'd like to know more from some other open water guru's...keep the info coming...
have you found that laying down icons for fish contacted over the course of say a weekend pays off by coming back to those same fish/areas that trip? or do those fish move around too much out there?
I am also interested Nellie as one of the best in the game at the deep water deal doesn't use icons from what I know and have seen firsthand. Unless he just started. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | the point on "mud" is an interesting one. again, i'm reminded of a time on the ice with the crazy guy who drives boats fast ... his fastidious nature and attention to detail finding mud-rock transition even if he has to drill 10 holes in a 20' radius made me scratch my head.
things happen in mud too ... made my brain shift gears, grubs, worms etc... get eaten by what? and what eats them?? and especially if it might be a mud piece out of sand??? hmmmm, even more interesting. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | CiscoKid - 6/21/2012 7:56 AM
as one of the best in the game at the deep water deal
i thought that was you?? |
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Location: Oconto Falls, WI | jonnysled - 6/21/2012 7:59 AM
CiscoKid - 6/21/2012 7:56 AM
as one of the best in the game at the deep water deal
i thought that was you??
Nope and never have claimed so. Seriously if anyone wants to learn the suspended deal and see what is done hire Paul Klein. Not only would you have a great time, but learn what is the “behind the scenes” of the deep water game. Just let me know if you need his contact info.
One thought about others results and GPS. To get a true perspective on suspended fishing, and whether GPS helps or not you need to find someone that has been doing it for some time. Before GPS time. The only way you will know if the use of GPS has increased their catches, or has just become a nicety. Asking the perspective from someone that started the game of suspended fishing and used GPS to mark all their encounters because they read or watched to do so may have a slightly swayed opinion.
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Location: minocqua, wi. | if you will go back to the start of this it's been about the transition from paper mapping and triangulation. the "tools" available at the time.
an even more interesting piece is the stuff Ray Kennedy did back in the day floating balloons and such ...
anyone who grabbed a fishing pole when they were 5 and has a passion has probably learned, made transitions and utilized tools as the industry has grown, developed and provided them. why not use em??
observe = to see the unseen |
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Open water has "sweet spots". You will find that on lakes with large amounts of deep water, take Walker Bay on Leech for example, have areas where fish are biters and areas where you are wasting your time. This is true year after year there. I'm not talking about deep water near structure either, but out in the abyss.
Maybe this isn't true on all lakes, but it is undoubtedly true on many.
Marking suspended fish with your GPS, if you are trolling, can also pay off during moonrise and moonset, or other such lunar periods. Just like casting in the shallows, fish suspended react to lunar stuff, and often they seem to stay in relatively small areas even in the deep.
JS
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