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Posts: 1360
Location: Lake "y" cause lake"x" got over fished | Shep - 3/22/2012 1:15 PM
Not enough tourney anglers to address the membership issue. I'd wager that a good portion of the tourney anglers are already MI members.
As Steve said, NPAA is a good organization, that does alot of good stuff for the kids. Good idea for MI to partner up with this group.
Oh, and get rid of the print magazine. It's a money pit.
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Do you actually believe that the magazine is the reason that kids aren't joining? As it says on the MI website you can opt out of getting the magazine when you sign up... (1)... (2)... if you want to save them money then you can send an e-mail to them stating that you only want the online version and not the paper version. It actually says it will help save money. But know one does these things, they just choose to complain about them. I guess it is easier....? So there are things that can be done by people if they choose to take those routes.
no offense to anyone, I'm just sick of hearing the same complaint about the magazine, Yet know one changes anything about their MI membership. Sorry That is just how I feel... |
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | I think the issue with the magazine is the money spent on it could actually go toward the fishery. |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'no offense to anyone, I'm just sick of hearing the same complaint about the magazine, Yet know one changes anything about their MI membership. Sorry That is just how I feel...'
They still print and publish the magazine whether you personally opt out or not. |
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Posts: 7038
Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | My personal feelings are NOT swayed by the argument "look at the other positives, we know International is screwed up" and the understanding that so many dues $$$ get wasted. This is a known thing, it has been, but they are resistant to change. Maybe my not joining and getting to say something about it here as others have done will help affect change. maybe not. |
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Posts: 726
Location: Eau Claire, WI | I'm sure they have a printing contract that includes a minimum run no matter who wants them mailed so opting out is just a mail savings plus some overhead. A drop in the bucket. A nice gesture.
Let's see, our chapter has maybe 200 members x $35 for a single membership = 7000 a year. I don't know the true breakdown of the membership types and revenue for our club so this is an approximation.
But for the sake of example, $7000 represents a large portion of our chapter's operating budget. Even half that to us would be a huge help. But next to none of it trickles down. Where is the motivation to recruit new members? The benefits to the chapter are minimal - a larger pool to draw your 10% from for help and to hit up for money to actually pay for the chapter activities. Its messed up.
Approx 50 chapters. Some with more or less membership numbers. I'm guessing 200 is about average. 50x7000= is $350,000. Man how much could be done for the resource with that money.
I don't have the hard numbers on membership revenue so please understand this is an approximation but it helps illustrate how inefficiently the membership dollars get burned on things I don't think are necessary and distract us from our stated mission:
To promote a high quality muskellunge sport fishery;
To support selected conservation practices based on scientific merit and carried out by authorized federal and state agencies;
To promote muskellunge research;
To establish hatcheries and rearing ponds and introduce the species into suitable waters;
To support the abatement of water pollution;
To maintain records of habits, growth, and range of species;
To disseminate muskellunge information;
To promote good fellowship and sportsmanship among men, women and children;
How does the magazine and the costs involved get us closer to our stated purpose?
Jono
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| I just want to point out that organizations like Trout Unlimited, Ducks Unlimited, Pheasants Forever, Whitetails Unlimited and probably MANY more all have publications none of which are likely to disappear any time soon. About the closest I could find to an organization without much of a magazine presence is Bonefish and Tarpon Trust, which publishes one issue per year.
Interesting discussion. |
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Location: Lake "y" cause lake"x" got over fished | sworrall - 3/22/2012 2:07 PM
'no offense to anyone, I'm just sick of hearing the same complaint about the magazine, Yet know one changes anything about their MI membership. Sorry That is just how I feel...'
They still print and publish the magazine whether you personally opt out or not.
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I'm not saying they wont but this is straight off the MI website. If every member of MI went on and opted to only read the online version. Who knows what we could do with the money saved... the more people that do this the more money money gets redirected.
"We hope you enjoy reading MUSKIE Magazine. Each new issue will be available on-line to our members approximately 2 weeks before the printed versions are mailed. If the on-line version is all you need, please contact our Administrative Secretary and ask to have your membership changed to on-line only. This will allow Muskies Inc. to "redirect" some of our printing and mailing expenses to other important projects" - http://www.muskiesinc.org/indy_files/photos.php
Edited by FAT-SKI 3/22/2012 2:35 PM
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| To promote a high quality muskellunge sport fishery;
To support selected conservation practices based on scientific merit and carried out by authorized federal and state agencies;
To promote muskellunge research;
To establish hatcheries and rearing ponds and introduce the species into suitable waters;
To support the abatement of water pollution;
To maintain records of habits, growth, and range of species;
To disseminate muskellunge information;
To promote good fellowship and sportsmanship among men, women and children;
How does the magazine and the costs involved get us closer to our stated purpose?
Jono
Actually, I believe the magazine hits on several of these mission statements. The issue with the mission statements is two-fold: wording and individual interpretation (ties into wording). The wording and your interpretation of HOW to promote or support may not include written word, which is fine and that's your personal opinion to which you're allowed. Qualifying statements like "to promote muskellunge research" with "by providing funding and manpower" sounds like it's what you're wanting. Or "to promote good fellowship and sportsmanship..." through various outings local chapter meetings, fundraisers, and benefits" could be another way to word that statement. Disseminating muskellunge information is most certainly done through the magazine (not sure how that's not obvious). The magazine also promotes research, but it is in written form which you may not agree with. It also promotes fellowship and camaraderie, but in written form which, again, you may not agree with. The point is the magazine accomplishes these things, but clearly individual interpretation of the mission statements and the magazine's role is very different depending on who you talk to.
I see your point and believe there's merit to it (in fact I haven't seen anything I've truly disagreed with to my core anywhere in this thread). I think the issue is whether we're getting a proportional amount of benefit from the magazine relative to its cost. I think the magazine has benefits to the organization, which is likely why the other orgs the above poster pointed out still have magazines themselves. Perhaps there would be a way to scale back the funds apportioned to the magazine. I believe MI is starting to address that by 1) allowing someone to not receive the mag or get an electronic version (unless someone can confirm it, it's pure speculation to say MI has a contract that stipulates a minimum # of mags being published) and 2) reducing the number of issues to 6 per year. |
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Posts: 203
Location: Alexandria, Minnesota | Fat Ski.........I am guess I should have not only said the new younger anglers in my comment, you are right that many of the new muskie angler's in general just don't have the same respect for the fish, as many of the seasoned fishermen do.
I just look back to when I first took up the sport,I wanted to get better at not only catching fish but I wanted to learn how to safely handle them too, and believe me I wasnt very good at either when I first got started. So I joined my local chapter of Muskies Inc here in Alexandria, MN, Not only did I learn how to catch more fish but it really open my eyes to many of the techniques those members used to safely handle the fish and they also were able to teach me how truely limited the resource really was... I owe everything Muskie Fishing has given to me to some of the lessons that were passed on to me by those Muskies Inc Members. Your right we need to focus on the new angler's taking up the sport, so that we can pass on the lessons that we learned to those angler's taking up the sport today. That is something I try to do every chance that I get, fishing up here. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | not sure about trout or pheasants, but DU is a business and far from a non-profit. like comparing an apple to a camel ... |
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Location: Minneapolis, MN | Guest:
To use your analogy of DU, Trout and other's is not apples to apples. Their production costs for publications are spread across exponentially larger membership and represent a small percentage of their total annual budget. MI in contrast has the magazine representing a significant percentage of the total budget.
We all need to stop defending MI. Nobody is bashing MI that I have seen. What they are doing is having a reasonable discussion about changing how International operates and spends the small available budget to meet or shall I say does not meet its stated objectives.
If you use the numbers Jono presented and try to answer his question, imagine what could be done with a $350,000 annual budget if invested differently, I'll give you an idea of what that could mean. Look at the projects that the Hugh Becker Foundation has been able to make possible in a very short time with ~$100,000 available annually.
We need to think of International having the potential to be less government, provide only what the chapters need across all so they can be successful in their local markets. If International was only chasing the National sponsors, Federal grants, providing insurance, rolling up the chapters tax/financials, running electronic communications, they could give all but the costs for these centralized functions back to the chapters. The chapters know better how to use that money to make the biggest impact on their local programs/needs. If/when that begins to happen, membership will skyrocket because potential members will directly see the impact of their dues in their backyard. |
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | I tried to stay out of this but the "force" is strong in Luke Chinewalker. At risk of getting fired from my volunteer position in the international here goes... Solution - shut down most of the international! Hang on, bear with me so I can explain. I’ve been involved in a couple positions in the international and started off with a passion to make things happen thanks to Perry Smith. However, that passion was soon gone and it didn’t take long to see there was little willingness to make the changes needed for the organization to become better. It’s easy to get fed up with an organization that is happy with the status quo and not willing to tell the members “this is what we MUST do to be successful going forward”. The international doesn't really "do" anything currently except publish a magazine and provide tax/insurance benefits. IMO the international shouldn’t do anything EXCEPT provide tax/insurance benefits. Before anyone has a fit about this just stop to think about what the chapters really need. The chapters don't need the magazine, in fact I'm pretty certain they all publish their own newsletter and many likely do it via the web. Any international news could be placed in the chapter newsletters and/or an online magazine. The chapters do all of the work and raise all of the money to fund their projects. What if M-Inc. could run on 1/3 of that $35? Each year provide 1/3 in grants to chapters and 1/3 goes into building the fund that should have been able to provide grants years ago. I believe many people would feel better about their $35 that currently seems to go into the bucket with a hole in the bottom. The chapters don't need to say they are part of Muskies, Inc., I would argue there are very few cases when a chapter has done something great where their affiliation with Muskies, Inc. had anything to do with their success. Local and regional affiliations and alliances are much more important. My opinion is that the international needs to be restructured and doesn’t need to think they can have a hand in everything. Providing the things chapters need to be successful should be the only priority and mission of the international. (Edit: Wow Chinewalker, I was typing this as you were posting yours... great minds - eh?)
Edited by Will Schultz 3/22/2012 3:19 PM
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | pot-stirrer! |
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| Luke and Jon,
I hadn't thought of the size of the organizations. Not sure it's like comparing apples to camels, but I'd accept apples to oranges 
All really good discussion. This is one of the most civil discussions about a potentially charged issue I've seen on this board. |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | not about size
business (DU)
non-profit (MI)
enormous difference, not comparable |
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Posts: 8781
| I look at what our club could do with $35/member/year... Membership is at 310 I believe. Even if we could get half of that money, that's still $5,000. You can buy quite a few fingerlings with $5,000. You can put together some nice raffles, or up the payouts for the spring and fall tournaments, all of which would encourage more people to join, and put more butts in the seats at our monthly meetings. More members + more butts in the seats = more money for the club = better fishing opportunities for everyone. Seems the problem many have with joining is NOT the $35, but what happens to the $35. |
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Location: Eau Claire, WI | Guest, re: magazine and the purpose statement. I think your last paragraph is spot on. The ROI of the magazine advancing the purpose is out of whack. Too much for too little.
Luke and Will, a big "Like" to your statements.
I don't see anyone bashing M.I. here either. I think its a great discussion and I'm glad I'm participating in it.
I will always belong to M.I., I just want to see it succeed well into the future and the road we are on might not be the best.
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Location: Minneapolis, MN | EA
3 pages into the second thread and you are getting it. Now we have to get the others to "get it".
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Posts: 462
Location: Syracuse, Indiana | If you want change, then become involved with MI (not just at the chapter level - BTW - "international" as a term for MI is out). Communicate with your chapter representatives. Communicate with the Regional representatives. Communicate with the officers. I enjoy this board, but it is not the MI officer educational forum. A common complaint is a lack of information from MI. Communication works both ways. As to the magazine, be aware that it has always been far and away the number one member benefit in every poll to which I have been privy. It took a bylaw change to reduce the number of issues. The MI structure has certain institutional inertia, but change is happening (a few years ago board meetings involved nearly 100 people, all type A personalities. Ever try herding cats?  ). Will's comments are intriguing, kind of like limiting the role of the federal government, or restructuring MI. However, there are other benefits of MI as a whole (for example - "Dave's Independent Muskie Club" lacks the political oomph of an MI Chapter). Both MI as an institution and the individual chapters have their place. We need to continue to work together to counter external attacks to our sport, and grow the fishery. The mission statement has lofty - but worthy - goals. No individual nor any individual chapter could do it all. MI's present leadership is responsive. Communicate with them! Off my soapbox. Dave Cates |
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Posts: 321
| I think the main thing here, is that is okay to not belong and plenty of non-members do great things for the muskie world. If MI wants more members, then they will have to change to become more appealing to those who fish and care for muskie. H |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'I enjoy this board, but it is not the MI officer educational forum.'
But it is currently where a valid and worthy conversation is taking place between those who are members, and importantly, those who are not.
You and I have talked about this in the past; perhaps this discussion may let a bit of badly needed fresh air into the communication process you spoke to in your post. |
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Posts: 5874
| FAT-SKI - 3/22/2012 1:45 PM
Shep - 3/22/2012 1:15 PM
Not enough tourney anglers to address the membership issue. I'd wager that a good portion of the tourney anglers are already MI members.
As Steve said, NPAA is a good organization, that does alot of good stuff for the kids. Good idea for MI to partner up with this group.
Oh, and get rid of the print magazine. It's a money pit.
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Do you actually believe that the magazine is the reason that kids aren't joining? As it says on the MI website you can opt out of getting the magazine when you sign up... (1 )... (2 )... if you want to save them money then you can send an e-mail to them stating that you only want the online version and not the paper version. It actually says it will help save money. But know one does these things, they just choose to complain about them. I guess it is easier....? So there are things that can be done by people if they choose to take those routes.
Did I say that I believe the magazine is the reason kids aren't joining? No. Please try to understand what is being stated by the critics here.
The magazine is a money pit. It's unnecessary, and while it doesn't keep new members from joining, it also doesn't do much to encourage new membership. Until the magazine is discontinued, MI will never have the kinds of funds it takes in todays' economy to realize any real impact on the resources.
You want to encourage new mem\bership, you have to change the culture of MI. Most members will stay on no matter, but to get the younger generations interested, you need to offer something current, relevant, challenging, and dynamic.
Look, MI has been doing basically the same thing since its inception. Embrace the fact that change is good and necessary. Encourage new ideas from new members. Reach out to other organizations, partner up with them, and work together to educate and excite the young anglers and their parents.
FAT-SKI - 3/22/2012 1:45 PM
no offense to anyone, I'm just sick of hearing the same complaint about the magazine, Yet know one changes anything about their MI membership. Sorry That is just how I feel...
I changed something about my membership. I let it lapse about a year ago. I don't think until this thread came up, I ever once thought about the MI Magazine, and that I missed receiving it.
I figure I'll renew my membership when the current free time user has moved on. Until then, I'll watch, and offer suggestions on how to help MI ease into today's environment. |
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| esoxaddict - 3/22/2012 3:52 PM
Seems the problem many have with joining is NOT the $35, but what happens to the $35.
I think he's got it! |
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Posts: 5874
| Homer - 3/22/2012 6:04 PM
I think the main thing here, is that is okay to not belong and plenty of non-members do great things for the muskie world. If MI wants more members, then they will have to change to become more appealing to those who fish and care for muskie. H
Yes! |
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Location: Minneapolis, MN | dcates - 3/22/2012 5:41 PM
If you want change, then become involved with MI (not just at the chapter level - BTW - "international" as a term for MI is out). Communicate with your chapter representatives. Communicate with the Regional representatives. Communicate with the officers. I enjoy this board, but it is not the MI officer educational forum. A common complaint is a lack of information from MI. Communication works both ways. As to the magazine, be aware that it has always been far and away the number one member benefit in every poll to which I have been privy. It took a bylaw change to reduce the number of issues. The MI structure has certain institutional inertia, but change is happening (a few years ago board meetings involved nearly 100 people, all type A personalities. Ever try herding cats? ). Will's comments are intriguing, kind of like limiting the role of the federal government, or restructuring MI. However, there are other benefits of MI as a whole (for example - "Dave's Independent Muskie Club" lacks the political oomph of an MI Chapter). Both MI as an institution and the individual chapters have their place. We need to continue to work together to counter external attacks to our sport, and grow the fishery. The mission statement has lofty - but worthy - goals. No individual nor any individual chapter could do it all. MI's present leadership is responsive. Communicate with them! Off my soapbox. Dave Cates
Dave.....seriously? Communication on this subject has been attempted countless times over many years and it always falls on deaf ears. Let's not attempt to position this as if this topic is somehow new or that we are not all aware of the elephant in the room.
Sure this may not be the MI forum and that's the real value. Non-members want to know what's going on and they do not have access in the MI forums. Your comments sound a lot like closed door sessions our congress has as somehow being acceptable when they are not. Anything that can't be talked about in an open forum should be questioned for that very reason.
That get involved pitch is so stale and one of the many primary reasons people are not renewing and having angst about joining. Many people cannot or do not want to get involved but do want to see what they can give, their money, go to a good cause that they can see benefit from. What MI does now above the chapter level does not accomplish that but it does consume ALL of the $35 membership fee.
I can't believe we are going to continue to hang on the number one member benefit determined by a poll excuse as to why keep the magazine. It may be the number one benefit to those that are members but what about the much bigger target group of non-members? There comes a time to realize that the old ways are not as good as new ways even if there is some pain to get there. Ask the guys at Sony what they think about their decision to try to fight electronic music. |
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Location: Lino Lakes, MN | Fat-Ski,
If last month was your first meeting I would not expect many to "spill there guts " after just meeting you. I reccomend going to the meetings - as many as you can become a regular at the meetings and guy's will warm to you. Just like work, scool ect. If you can get there early have a bite to eat and mingle a little more. You will pick up your share of knowledge - everone looks for a little give and take.
I think that the Twin Cities chapter also has a leage night. Fish as many nights as you can and offer up rides or look for partners to fish the different lakes. It is a good way to get to know the guy's that fish locally.
Our North Metro Chapter has a sharred outing on Lake of the Woods with the T.C. chapter and it is a heck of a deal.
I don't know of anyone who has been somewhat involved in the chapters many activities that did not enjoy themselves. Our chapters League night has been a very good way for the group to get to know each other. We usually talked at the end of the night and shared what was working and what did not. You also get a clue as to the better times fo the year to fish some of the local waters.
Many of the positives that can come from attending chapter meetings, league nights, summer picknicks ect and banquets can all be done without being a member. If you put in a little effort, plant a seed or 10 they will start to grow and you will "gain" something out of this effort- New friends, possible long time fishing pals and pick up knowledge about these fish. As a side benefit the 10% discount you get at Thorn Brothers and several other local shops will more than make up for your membership dues.
I myself hate the politics in Muskies Inc, Boy Scouts of America, PTA ect ect ect. show up and participate don't be afraid to say hello to anyone and introduce yourself as a new member to anyone you meet. I think you will get something out of it.
I attend the North Metro meetings and am a member there. I also attended last months Twin Cities chapter meeting and had a good time. I will attend their April meeting as well.
Good Luck, Have fun and share the sport with someone new this year
Steve Sorgenfrei |
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Posts: 1360
Location: Lake "y" cause lake"x" got over fished |
Hey Sorgy -
I am not looking for a guy with 25 years experience to come up to me and tell me all of the good spots I can catch a 50" class fish. I'm not looking for peoples trade secrets. When I first walked into the meeting there was one man, that came right up to me and introduced himself. Very nice guy! He was talking to me about the meeting and other things directly related to MI. He was the reason I joined MI. I'm not trying to get people to "spill the beans" in the first ten minutes of meeting them. What I am asking for, is when I go and talk to one of the other members and they look at me like "whos this guy" and trust me not everyone did that. I met some extremely nice people at the meeting and will contiue to go to all that I can. I understand like you said I have to earn my merit and I'm not disagreeing with you. But it is the lack of warmth in body language that bothers me. I had plenty of kinda messed up experiences over the last few years to gauge a big enough opinion on SOME of the "older generation" of musky guys. I'm also not stupid and am also a fisherman, I don't give out my best spots either... none of us do (until friendship is deveploed maybe). However I believe that part of the problem for some of the younger guys or the other guys who are just new to the sport is to give a little extra maybe. I believe sincerity and honesty can be huge. Like I said i'm not asking for your 50" spot, but a little warmth and comraderie goes a long way. The information I am interested in from the senior members is everything being talked about on the thread. i.e what can I do to help better MI? what can I do to help get more young guys involved with MI? What steps can I take to help our fisheries? These are the things I want to know, and the list goes on.
I am a member and will be for as long as I can hold a rod. Not all of the "older generation" are bad and I don't want people to think that is what I am getting at. But what you have to keep in mind, is no matter how many good things you do, people only remember the negative. Unfortenatly that is the way our world is. Hopefully one day we can all work together to change it a little peice at a time.
With the best regards
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Location: Bemidji, Lake Vermilion | Sorgy, you're awesome! I know you can siddle up to any ole stranger and be buddies in mear minutes.
I felt very left out at the first few meetings I attended also. Seems to be a common issue. I stuck with it and am super glad I did, have met some awesome guys and continue to improve in all aspects of muskie fishing from techniques to equipment to having new fishing partners.
I'm the secretary of the chapter I'm in now, and feelings like I got at my first few meetings are not happening anymore for new people as long as I'm involved. |
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| To me whining about what some international is doing with my dues is like arguing with a waitress over how she'll spend the tip I give her. Its like anything, its given me more than I could ever ask for, If you dont like it, or like what your chapter is focused on get involved and work for something better. I dont worry about the international I worry about funding the local chapter and all the chapters in MN. When one chapter is succeeding its makes all of us look good and work harder. When one is faltering I feel its up to all of us to support them and work together. I know Muskies inc people from all across the state, they work very hard for the fish and their members, they support the connective tissue that bonds all of our states chapters together through communication, honesty, discussion and friendship. If the $#!+ hits the fan I call a MI member 9 outta 10 times, number 10's gonna be for Mom's apple pie recipe. My life is better through the friends and most importantly the mentors I have in Muskies inc. get that anywhere else and sign me up there too. Member # 54-41850 BTW I hate politics too, unfortunately I found out that is the biggest threat to our fish we love.
Edited by Muskiefool 3/23/2012 12:04 AM
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Maybe I just have a different philosophy than some, but to me you don't walk away from an organization that has done, and continues to do so much for the muskie fishery because you don't agree with some internal workings.
Things don't change when the guys who want it to change leave, and the guys left are the ones that don't see the reasons to change.
For people to actually say they won't join because they don't like the magazine, or think it's a waste are looking for an excuse not to participate.
To take a stand against all that the organization does for the muskie fishery, and muskie fishermen, by not joining over issues that you can't control unless you participate in the membership to me doesn't make sense.
John Skarie
FM Chapter |
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