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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Hey, I could list the shots exchanged the last few comments and number them...pretty even, and exactly what happens when one leads with one's chin. How about we stay on topic or at least argue facts and ideas about the subject? |
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Location: The desert | IM Musky Time - 10/20/2011 7:37 PM
Pointerpride102 - 10/20/2011 7:17 PM
IM Musky Time - 10/20/2011 7:08 PM
This has been a tough one for me to sit back on as well....we are fighting the battle in Michigan to try and stop the expansion of spearing and it's coming down to the wire. I don't think comparing spearing to hook and line angling for muskies is apples to apples at all. I grew up spearing pike and it was a blast---I'm not against spearing. What I am against is spearing for muskies, particularly in very small bodies of water like the ones being targeted in the Michigan expansion---almost all of which are under 1,000 acres and most of those under 500. The leader of our state's Darkhouse group said at a recent meeting something to the effect that muskies are no nobler than a pike. Lots of reasons to disagree with that, most of them too obvious to waste typing out.
Many good points in this thread---and some that admittedly are hard to read without wanting to blow up on someone's position. Some posts are purposely argumentative on this subject and others because the authors enjoy being controversial---not a newsflash, they do it almost everyday and make for entertaining reading at times. But we have seen the impacts of opening up lakes to spearing in Michigan and they were and continue to be disastrous as far as maintaining an adult population of fish after the winter "harvests." The impact over a period of time, even on huge lakes like those in Minnesota, has to be extremely significant.
I hope Minnesota and Michigan can keep the impact of spearing harvest to a minimum. Once the damage has been done, it's a long wait to get back to where things were---if they ever do. Sometimes anecdotal evidence ends up being factual, even if someone's use of the English language isn't up to your standards.
Sometimes it does, but most of the time it doesn't. That is why they pay the biologists and not the fisherman.
Edit to add: How are muskies "nobler" than pike? I must have missed the class on fish nobleness? Or are you saying you value muskies more than pike, therefore your opinion is worth more than that of the Darkhouse leader? Seems snobby to me. Maybe the fly fisherman are recruiting? Acceptance in the club comes with a lovely salmon surf shirt!
I'm not advocating the spearing of muskies, but simply because someone's opinion differs from yours, doesn't make yours "nobler".
Maybe you should try out for Jeopardy.
Already did and made it past the online test. Unfortunately the applicant pool is so large that it becomes a lottery after you pass the test. Maybe if they allowed spearing of the applicant pool? Get rid of the less noble applicants.
I don't agree with musky spearing on most lakes, but I think it could be valuable on others even if only for a few years. The fact is harvest is harvest no matter the form. It doesn't matter if it is hook and line, spear, dynamite or rotenone. Regulation of harvest numbers, a quota if you will would be effective in limiting trophy fish loss. If the season closes after X amount of fish over a certain length are speared, you might see some selectivity in number and size of fish speared.
I don't have a problem with people expressing their opinion. I have a problem with people blatantly believing their opinion is more right than others. To a pike fisherman, there is not species better than a pike. To a musky angler there is no better fish than a musky. To a peacock bass fisherman, the pike and musky don't mean squat. It doesn't make someone's target species more or less "noble". Claiming one fish is more noble than another is laughable and snobby. It is why the musky crowd gets such a big push back from other angling groups. The elite and pious attitudes portrayed by a large faction of the musky community does the group no favors and puts them in a bad light.
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| Pointerpride102 - 10/20/2011 9:28 PM
I don't have a problem with people expressing their opinion. I have a problem with people blatantly believing their opinion is more right than others. To a pike fisherman, there is not species better than a pike. To a musky angler there is no better fish than a musky. To a peacock bass fisherman, the pike and musky don't mean squat. It doesn't make someone's target species more or less "noble". Claiming one fish is more noble than another is laughable and snobby. It is why the musky crowd gets such a big push back from other angling groups. The elite and pious attitudes portrayed by a large faction of the musky community does the group no favors and puts them in a bad light.
I couldn't agree more with this statement.
I spear and fish muskies and can say I hear rediculous things said by both sides.
I think it's rediculous that some muskie anglers think that muskie populations are going to be affected by spearing. There are many MN lakes that allow both and have very healthy muskie populations. If you want to help muskie populations then take the effort you put in to stop spearing into educating people on C&R and proper handling tequniques and you'll save more muskies that spear fisherman will ever accidentaly kill.
Now to the other side, to say that spearing won't affect the population of large pike and that spearfisherman don't target large fish is rediculous. I have seen and know too many idiots that brag about how big of a pike they speared and for nothing but a picture.
And for the record I do not support the opening up of Cass lake to spearing but I really don't think it will affect anything. Cass lake is not very accessable in the winter it's a large lake and there isn't a large population of people in the area that are going to spear it so I wouldn't be too worried about it.
Joe |
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Posts: 910
Location: Hastings, mn, 55033 | Obviously folks in the DNR and legislature put a value or "nobleness" on some fish more tha nothers, otherwise there would be no distinction amongst species as far as limits/seasons etc, and certainly not between "gamefish" and "roughfish". I'd be able to rig up a walleye the same as I am a sucker.
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Picking apart somone's choice of adjectives for a muskie seems a little silly.
JS |
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Location: The desert | castmaster - 10/21/2011 12:12 PM
Obviously folks in the DNR and legislature put a value or "nobleness" on some fish more tha nothers, otherwise there would be no distinction amongst species as far as limits/seasons etc, and certainly not between "gamefish" and "roughfish". I'd be able to rig up a walleye the same as I am a sucker.
Thanks for making my point. Anglers put the distinction on what species they prefer and lobby the DNR and/or legislature. Look at the CC hears in Wisconsin. The DNR is made up of public employees working FOR the public. Look no further than how this spearing ban got lifted. A special interest group put a high value on spearing pike. |
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Posts: 89
Location: Breezy Point, MN | As a transplant who has lived in Minnesota now for almost two years, it is painfully obvious that local politicians in St. Paul are being swayed by a couple of influential allies who do not have the interests of the general public in mind. It just so happens that one of these influential people who is a dark house spearer absolutely HATES muskies, musky anglers and Muskies, Inc and has some major allies in St. Paul. The battle for Gull Lake here a few years ago was a classic example of the MDNR choosing a large body of water to create a quality musky fishery, and getting approval from the local lake association and the general public, and then mysteriously, the whole stocking plan ends suddenly in St. Paul by some dumb city-iot politician swayed by a high profile person in bed with "No More Muskies" who flat out HATES muskies. These same politicians who killed the Gull Lake musky project were "bought out" by this group for one sole selfish purpose: DARK HOUSE ASSOCIATION. One of these politicians had lake property on Gull and killed the deal. This same selfishness and anti-musky propaganda that is contantly on display by these fanatic zealots is appaling, as is their hatred towards muskies and musky anglers alike. All for what? Last I checked, there are PLENTY of lakes available in this great state to spear a few "picklers" to fill the freezer.
The Dark House Association and No More Muskies groups got passionately involved in shooting down the Lower South Long Lake stocking plan this past year, brainwashing the local lake association members through their rhetorical propoganda that musky anglers and ONLY musky anglers are spreading invasive species to area lakes, and that muskies will eat the entire lake out of other fish species (a classic No More Muskies scare tactic). Fact is, name one trophy musky lake in MN, and I will also show you that these same lakes are awesome walleye and pike fisheries, as well as bass and panfish along with big muskies. I fish these same lakes hard for all species, and I have seen first hand what great walleye lakes Mille Lacs and Leech are, yet they have good populations of the "hated" muskies in them.
This fanatical group "No More Muskies" unfortunately has a lot of clout in the lovely Liberal Land of MN politics in St. Paul, and these same politicians (whom are all non-anglers) are being swayed by these kooks to believe that muskies are vicious creatures and that all musky fishermen want to take away their pike spearing "traditions". I know some anglers who love to fish muskies and also like to spear pike, but none of the ones I know HATE muskies the way these fanatical groups do.
Never in my life have I seen such politically swayed corruption regarding well researched DNR decisions on potential future musky waters. Remember folks, the DNR biologists ARE the experts, not these nut case pro-pike spearing fanatics who miss their 1960's days of protesting and dope smoking. It's ugly over here, even though the MDNR is solely reponsible for creating arguably the best musky fishing in the continental US over the past fifteen years. The MDNR has lost it's upper hand by allowing groups like "No More Muskies" to actually become a voice in St. Paul with no credible scientific data, and we as musky anglers suffer because of non-angler politicians being swayed by the almighty dollar. In the old days, the MDNR stocked muskies where they wanted, and that was that. They have since emulated the unsuccessful Wisconsin model of getting the government involved, as well as public opinions that have NO scientific merit, to dictate future policies.
Oh and Guest, at least I post my REAL NAME on here. Grow a pair and post your real name on here in the future. It disgusts me that you have to hide under some internet moniker (GUEST). It really shows your lack of credibility. |
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| Saw several reports of 50 plus darkhouses on just one bay of Cass lake. The slaughter has begun. Good look catching a 35" pike during the open water season next year. SAD  |
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Posts: 321
| DJS - 12/26/2011 7:16 PM
Saw several reports of 50 plus darkhouses on just one bay of Cass lake. The slaughter has begun. Good look catching a 35" pike during the open water season next year. SAD :-(
Might have to downsize from the big equipment for the early season/preseason muskie fishing if the pike are going to be so small;) H |
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Location: mpls | Tom,
I think that you should check some of your facts. The people that pushed this through were not " liberals" . They were republicans. Also , I will point out that , in general the right is not all that swayed by science or scientific fact. If it was the "pot smoking" left- they would pretty much just shut the whole #*^@ thing down( any harming of animals) 
Everyone has had their hand in this mess, please don't assign more blame and divisiveness . The truth is, there were shady dealings with unscrupulous people. Who cares what side of the new American devide they were on. Bad people are bad people.
Joe |
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| uptown - 12/26/2011 11:30 PM
Tom,
I think that you should check some of your facts. The people that pushed this through were not " liberals" . They were republicans. Also , I will point out that , in general the right is not all that swayed by science or scientific fact. If it was the "pot smoking" left- they would pretty much just shut the whole #*^@ thing down ( any harming of animals )
Everyone has had their hand in this mess, please don't assign more blame and divisiveness . The truth is, there were shady dealings with unscrupulous people. Who cares what side of the new American devide they were on. Bad people are bad people.
Joe
Great post, so tired of people who don't get their own way complaining and blaming other parties than their own. H |
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Posts: 374
Location: Bemidji | By December 10th there were 56 spear houses in Allen's Bay. Since then there have been many many more. It is a good thing a creel clerk is out there 5 days a week. |
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Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | I don't see anywhere in Tom Dietz's post where he blames liberals for the ban lifted on Cass,.... but he does refer to minn. as " the Lovely Liberal land of MN. Politics" which is right on and hard to argue against.
The point he was trying to make is that there was a lot of back door deals being made with wrong information regarding muskies and muskie anglers, by people that HATE muskies, and want to see them destroyed.
The DNR has it right,........and it's sad to see our elected officals,(demorcrate or republican) just ignore the science of fish/wildlife managment.
Jerome
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Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | uptown - 12/26/2011 9:30 PM
Tom,
I think that you should check some of your facts. The people that pushed this through were not " liberals" . They were republicans. Also , I will point out that , in general the right is not all that swayed by science or scientific fact. If it was the "pot smoking" left- they would pretty much just shut the whole #*^@ thing down ( any harming of animals )
Everyone has had their hand in this mess, please don't assign more blame and divisiveness . The truth is, there were shady dealings with unscrupulous people. Who cares what side of the new American devide they were on. Bad people are bad people.
Joe
Actually the support/opposition was pretty non-partisan. It came down more on the age differential with more older legislators in favor and the younger ones citing the DNR testimony and going with it. |
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Location: mpls | O.k.
I guess my point is more that we are all in this together , regardless of what political party you belong. I agree with everything Tom says. Except the city-iot part. I would prefer to be called a 612er
I believe that this last push to get the ban lifted was sponsored by Republicans. The time before this it was Dems. We have had both governors (a Dem and a Repub) shoot it down. I may have gotten a little defensive, I will blame that on the political "discussions" that I have had with my Muskies inc friends up in the Lounge
We all want the same thing. Good Muskie fishing for the long haul in Mn. Let the DNR/science do its job.
Joe |
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Posts: 1638
Location: Minnesota | cass is a musky lake so no spearing name one lake that spearing is allowed on a musky lake |
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Posts: 32926
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Cass? |
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Posts: 374
Location: Bemidji | Muskyhunter, I think I saw you in that Geico commercial. You popped your head out from under the rock and saw the billboard. Same scenario here. |
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| This is the list where you can't spear. The rest of the state is open.
Baby* (Cass County)
Bald Eagle (Anoka, Ramsey, and
Washington counties)
Beers* (Otter Tail County)
Big* (Beltrami County)
Big Mantrap* (Hubbard County)
Cross and its Snake River
Flowage* (Pine County)
Deer* (Itasca County)
Eagle (Hennepin County)
Forest (Hennepin County)
Libbs (Hennepin County)
Lobster* (Douglas County)
Mille Lacs (Aitkin, Crow Wing,
and Mille Lacs counties)
Minnetonka (Hennepin and
Carver counties)
Moose* (Itasca County)
North Star* and Little
North Star* (Itasca County)
Owasso (Ramsey County)
Peavey (Hennepin County)
Rebecca (Hennepin County)
Rush * (Chisago County)
Spider* (Itasca County)
Stieger (Carver County)
Sugar* (Wright County)
Tanager (Hennepin County)
Wabedo* (Cass County)
West Battle* (Otter Tail County) |
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Location: Minnesota | yes and every one of thoses lakes are musky lakes s |
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Location: mpls | Ummm, yes ? |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | muskyhunter47
The point being Cass is now being speared. Read the thread. |
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Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | MH, only about 25 lakes of the roughly 100 muskie waters have spearing bans on them. They're probably shoot to get the rest of them lifted this year. |
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| god help us if tonka is ever open to spearing,,the twin cities immigrant population would wipe it out,, yes they would spear |
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| The average cass lake pike is only about 22 inches. Only a few over 36" were sampled out of a thousand or so pike sampled. Summer fishing takes the big fish, spearing finishes them off. The only logical conservation method is a 24 to 36 inch protected slot like Canada. Banning spearing is a waste of time and effort. Work on putting a Statewide protected pike slot if you want to really make a difference. |
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| Slot limits = de facto spearing ban as far as MDAA and most darkhouse spearers are concerned. Doesn't matter if you're trying to ban spearing impliment a slot. Anything that prevents them from stabbing whatever they want is vigorously opposed. |
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Posts: 374
Location: Bemidji | Here's a few recent harpooned pike from Cass:
http://www.froggysports.com/SpearingonCass2011.html
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Posts: 313
Location: Bemidji, Lake Vermilion | Bummer on that there First Cast, there are some huge pike in that mix. I sure hope the huge fish by the guy kneeling in the second one down on the left isn't a muskie. Looks awfully lightly colored and both super long and fat in that pic. |
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| Guess I know one store I'll never spend a dime in. Would be a shame if the ice conditions caused some of his spear houses to fall through... |
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Posts: 374
Location: Bemidji | There are a few businesses up here that shouldn't see a dime of anyone's money that has a fisheries first mindset. It is sad to see it happen but you have to look on the bright side of the situation. The surveys over the next five years will show clear evidence of what spearing has done to the lake. |
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