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We elect officials to run the business of the State of Mn. This includes making laws we all have to live by and hiring people (DNR) to run the state's business.
The democratic process we participate in stops at the point of electing said officials.
If it didn't than there would be no reason to elect them.
I was elected to the position of Township Supervisor. That doesn't mean my constiuents can then tell me what to do as far as making decisions. The job I was elected to do was to make decisions for them based on the trust they put into me by giving me this job.
I could very well make decisions that the majority of my people in Detoit Township disagree with. It's up to them to abide by my decisions or elect me out of office.
JS |
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| Our resources are not voted on by the people just a FYI, angler attitude has changed allot over the past 30 years, for the better. Why? because the people demanded a better fishery with more opportunity for quality fish. They didn't get to vote, they got to make a call.
Democracy of fish? Please tell me you don't vote. |
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Posts: 8793
| Guest - 3/28/2011 10:49 PM
We elect officials to run the business of the State of Mn. This includes making laws we all have to live by and hiring people (DNR) to run the state's business.
The democratic process we participate in stops at the point of electing said officials.
If it didn't than there would be no reason to elect them.
I was elected to the position of Township Supervisor. That doesn't mean my constiuents can then tell me what to do as far as making decisions. The job I was elected to do was to make decisions for them based on the trust they put into me by giving me this job.
I could very well make decisions that the majority of my people in Detoit Township disagree with. It's up to them to abide by my decisions or elect me out of office.
JS
You are correct - If you were elected to be township supervisor, you COULD make decisions that the majority disagree with. And it would likely cost you your job. Or, you could act in the best interests of the majority (and the folks who paid for your campaign and got you the job to begin with) and get to keep your job.
In any case, it doesn't matter who hires the DNR biologists to manage the fisheries. What matters is whether or not you let them decide how to best manage the fisheries. Again, my point above - let the people who know what they are doing decide what the best course of action is. Keep the politics out of it, and let the politicians do what they do best.
John, you are talking politcs here. Show me one instance where our political system |
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I'm talking politics because the inference has been made that the majority opinion should always be followed.
It's up to the people we elect to make decisions not based on what the people want all the time, but what is best for the people. The theory of elected officials is that they have the ability to make decisions for us that will better our lives, keep us safe etc. We should be electing people that are fair, smart and have the best interest of our State for both the short and long term.
The people we elect are entrusted to make the right decisions, not to make decisions that will keep them in office.
JS |
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Posts: 1220
| OK, let's dive just a tad deeper into the lake...In the MidEast they say, "The enemy of your enemy is your friend." Two tribes sort of hate each other a little but they both hate the third tribe even worse....so they form a temporary alliance and then wipe out the third tribe before going back to fighting with each other. If you go back to the origin of this thread...the mention of the PMTT sort of implies that maybe the tournament guys should stay away from this lake or at least consider it. Naturally, it is not lost on me that some of the guys posting here are not exactly tournament lovers....but they know we are still very much musky guys, probably hate spearing, probably support a pike fishery...i.e. the enemy of the enemy if not the best of friends. So, here is my story: I am a metal guy, I know a lot about lead, I was going to help some groups with the "Get the Lead Out" stuff because I'd rather not see lead in the water. Then I find out the groups don't just want to stop the lead...the want to stop the fishing with the lead just a rest stop on that road. So, I bail on the greenies and tell them F.O.. Why the story? It's because whatever the dumb thing those guys are doing in the dark, and whatever it is I don't like about it....they are Sportsmen of some sort and would probably try musky fishing maybe too and like that as well---probably vote with us on a lot of stuff. So, I am just saying that this stuff is often deeper than it looks. Maybe not a great idea to be targeting a fellow angler even if his idea of angling is a bit on the very barbaric side of the lake. Marty Forman |
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Marty makes a good point about fishermen being fishermen, and having more in common than they have not.
Years ago, when muskies were even less dense of a population on our natural lakes then they are now, people tried to find ways to change that.
In the 80's the spearing community agreed to the ban on Cass. They maybe didn't agree with it, or think they were the cause of the low muskie numbers but they realized that concern for the fishery was real on behalf of the muskie guys.
Somewhere along the way the focus shifted from the fishery to the anglers/spearers. Instead of talking about the fish they started talking about each other. I've heard stories about meetings where things got very, very heated, sometimes physical.
Now it's an us against them mentality that quite frankly is being fueled evenly by both sides.
That's to bad, because in the end of this who is really going to win?
JS |
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Posts: 829
Location: Maple Grove, MN | How about we look at the big picture here?
Lets be clear and understand that it is the darkhouse association who is bypassing the DNR and going to the legislature to get what they want. Its not the Muskie fishermen that are doing that. You can argue all you want about whether or not spearing should be allowed on Cass, but there is no argument that the darkhouse association has brought this issue to the legislature and they are the ones on the attack.
And let there be no doubt that the anti-spearing/anti-fishing people like PETA are watching this and see an opportunity to ban something they hate. While the PETA group and groups like them don't like sport fishing, they hate spearing much more and would love to see it banned.
The darkhouse association has now enabled the anti's to come after them. Before all this started, the DNR stood in the anti's way like a wall. Back when the legislature still listened to the DNR, the anti's had no chance of moving any sort of legislation in MN. But now the DNR barrier is gone and spearing is open for legislation. And don't think for one second that the anti's are going to sit by and do nothing. Do not be surprised to see bills introduced to completely ban both game and rough fish spearing in the MN legislature within two years. The goal of the anti's will be to get a "compromise" and only ban all gamefish spearing - which many fishermen will also support. The big danger after that will be that the anti's would then go after rough fish spearing and sport fishing in incremental stages.
The last thing we needed was for the legislature to start dictating game and fish laws and ignoring the DNR. But the darkhouse association has started it. Its just a matter of time now before the anti's make their move.
And so it goes.
Edited by Herb_b 3/29/2011 12:04 PM
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Posts: 8793
| Guest - 3/29/2011 10:13 AM
[...]
The people we elect are entrusted to make the right decisions, not to make decisions that will keep them in office.
JS
It's good to be an optimist I suppose... But wow, John. Really? I suppose at the local level in a small town there may be some that just want to do some good. But at the state level? Wow. |
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| EA; I was refering to how it is supposed to work, not how it actually pans out.
It's our job to put people in office that will do the right thing. If we can't than it's our fault.
Herb; The legislature has been going around the DNR for years. Walleye stocking rates were dicatated by legislature at levels the DNR was opposed to. What the MDA is trying to do isn't new and has been successfully done before.
The big picture is that both sides have elements in them that have pushed, and the natural reaction when pushed by many people is to push back.
The muskie guys say "the spearers are the one who ....", and the spearers say "the muskie guys are the one who....". What a great world we live in.
JS
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Posts: 183
Location: Grand Forks ND | It IS a great world we live in, JS....wouldn't want to live anywhere else!!
Can't people disagree, what's wrong with that. How boring life would be if everyone thought and wanted the same thing. |
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This isn't about disagreeing, it's about how people treat one another when they disagree.
JS |
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Posts: 829
Location: Maple Grove, MN | John,
I think this is quite different than stocking levels or which lakes to stock. Those are not hot-button issues to the anti-spearing/fishing crowd. Spearing is a major hot-button issue with them and now the box is open. Just wait and see what I'm talking about. The anti's have been waiting for a moment like this when the sportsman are divided.
So, how many Muskie fishermen would defend the darkhouse association now? After what those guys have been doing, I certainly wouldn't.
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The difference is you care. The point is the same. People have been using the legislature to go around the DNR for years, not just regarding fisheries issues.
There are spearers who say they will oppose anything the muskie guys want no matter what. I can guarantee you that muskies speared now-a days are done out of pure spite, it's not accidental.
There are muskie guys who feel the same way about the spearers. They put all spearers into the same group and think all of them want to do nothing but spear all the muskies they can. They woudn't support any cause they had out of spite.
I would guess more muskies are killed now by the spear than were back when they put the ban on Cass just because of the animosity that has been created between these 2 groups.
Think about that for a minute.
JS
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| I've missed you John.
SC |
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Haven't been hard to find Steve. Haven't learned much either!
JS |
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| Well John nobody will ever say you're shy. Myself on the other hand I have tried to completely disappear yet still have a impact. Disappearing did not work, You see I have single handed attempted to end this debate by eating every Pike in Cass Lake. (Honestly those who know me understand it's all I can catch on Cass anyways) Who knew that Pike are so full of fat! I am now larger that I have ever been. Ginourmous even. Went from a running bull, to a walking bull simply because running is no longer a option. I have become a not quite as old Tony Grant looking guy who hasn't seen his feet in over a year. The only impact I have made is my feet hitting the ground. Whole lot of shaking going on!
I have realized that I can not eat the entire population of Cass Lake Pike. My request is that Pike spearing anglers and Musky crazed individuals find some common ground. Please. |
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| Just look at what the spearing population has done to the pike on Lake Bemidji and that alone should be all the evidence needed to put a stop to this nonsense. They have almost completely wiped the big pike out. Its sad that ten years ago I could catch 10-15 a summer over 40inches and now your lucky if you even hear of one over. This debate shouldn't be driven by the anglers wanting to protect the muskies but by all anglers who love to catch and release all big fish. Cass Lake has a large population of big pike and without a little help that too will be ruined by spearing. What a shame! Mike |
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Mike, agree 100%.
Steve, I never knew you could see your feet.
Hook up with Jerry Sondag, he's the Subway dude of muskie fishing.
JS |
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| Check out the fish at 2:00 and tell me that's not a Muskie or a Hybrid. Those guys have no clue and would have speared it if it had been bigger. That is what Muskie Fishermen worry about spearing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goOWlYnqLAc
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Posts: 374
Location: Bemidji | He speared a 16lber that day as well. I thought they only spear the small ones. |
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| Yeah right. Look release. At the rate the MDAA is changing laws in 5 years they will be spearing muskie's claiming they all use "look release".... only spear the eaters. There's a trend going on here. They win this battle they work on removing slots for pike after that they open spearing to any fish, after that they want no limits. They already figured out this worked once. The representatives of Minnesota needs to hear from everyone on these bills. |
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Posts: 829
Location: Maple Grove, MN | The MDAA has opened a pandora's box that is going to bite them. Just wait until the anti's get in touch with all their allies in the MN legislature. There are more than a few in the MN legislature that would listen to them and they will craft legislation banning spearing. It will happen.
If you don't believe me, just look at California. The anti's managed to ban mountain lion hunting there even though those same mountian lions have killed people. Once the anti's come after the spearers in MN, the spearers will be in big trouble. The anti's are well funded and are supported by many in Hollywood. How will the little 1% of the MN fishing population ever stand up to that? Especially when the spearers have alienated the rest of the fishing population? Answer - they won't. They won't even have a chance.
The fact is that the spearers had it pretty good and have gotten greedy and now want more. And now they have left themselves open for attack.
Edited by Herb_b 3/30/2011 11:46 AM
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| Thanks for linking to the video. The guy speared three fish over 15lbs. in a couple of days. I am sure that won't have any affect on the size structure of northerns in that lake if that sucess rate is repeated all winter, give me a break. To call that a sport is laughable. Like Herb said, the antis will use the current situation to put and end to this "sport" in no time flat. |
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| I agree, herb has a good point. Kind of scary to think of any anti group that could come in and go around the DNR like the MDAA. This is not a good thing IMO. Can you imagine all the problems the anti's could cause. I just wish the DNR had the ability to set the guidelines for Minnesota's natural resources.
I like the idea of getting proactive instead of defensive on these anti-pike bills. I see no problem in listing the businesses that support the ban lift. I spend my weekends in that area and none of my business will go to these places.
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Posts: 203
Location: Alexandria, Minnesota | I Agree with you guys. I think it time to take the fight to them and put them on the defensive. We should go for a state wide ban on spearing. If you go by the percentages there are a hell of a lot more of us then them. Watching that video just sealed the deal for me. You get 10 to 15 guys like that on a lake and they could easily effect any Northern population in just one season. What a complete waste of those trophy fish. |
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Location: Minnesota: where it's tough to be a sportsfan! | Kevin, if you have compiled a listing of the business that support lifting the ban and those that do not. I would like to get a copy. I get up that way often and have tried not to spend anything up there if I do not have to because I do not know who is for what. I would certainly give business to those that support the ban. I would think anyone who goes there would want the list not only the PMTT guys. |
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Posts: 994
Location: Minnesota: where it's tough to be a sportsfan! | Also remember the ANTI's believe that hooking fish and letting them go is cruel and unusal treatment of a living creature. They are already on the record against sportfishing in the oceans. I don't believe we have any allies there. Our Problem lies in the elected officials in the Great State of Minnesota. We need to make a list on where they stand and make sure come next election that is in everyone's hands. I don't care what party affliation you believe you are. They have all sold out on our resources at one candidate or another. If we find out who is Pro Muskie and move to support them. In a few years we will make a difference. Nine tenths of the dirty deals on natural resource issues happen because the sportsmen & women of this State cannot or will not organize. It would be different with Muskie People....Muskie People have more passion, fire, and are NOT AFRAID of an uphill battle. Muskie People COULD get it together.
another 2 cents, Jake |
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| Guest - 3/29/2011 5:26 PM
My request is that Pike spearing anglers and Musky crazed individuals find some common ground. Please.
There have been 2 olive branches offered to the spearers in the last 4 weeks. Each time the general response was to go pound sand. |
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Posts: 994
Location: Minnesota: where it's tough to be a sportsfan! | We sure have allot of GUEST posts on this string. Some have brought up good points. I can appreciate the want to remain unknown but really...step up folks.
I would prefer a list of business that DID support the ban to work from, because I would drive OUT of State rather than support one that wants to lift it. I think this is especially important to me for the resorts. I may not have to stay there but if they have food I'll cross the whole lake to give them my dollars rather than go without or buy from the others. I also will give the list to those that are coming from out - of - state. There's nothing wrong with this, it's my money and the guests I have in my boats go where the capitan takes them. |
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Identifying lakes that have trophy pike potential and taking measures to protect them is one thing.
Calling for an allout ban on spearing is another.
Anyone who thinks for one second that it's in our best interest to push for a spearing ban in MN is not thinking things through.
There are more people in MN who have anti-muskie feelings than just the spearers.
No More Muskies was not a spearing group in the begining, but later did ally with them.
Spearers may be a small % of MN anglers, but we are only one step above them.
A lot of MN anglers could be easily persuaded to not support the muskie program and actually work to stop it from expanding, or worse stop stocking any non-native lakes.
JS |
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