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Location: north central wisconsin | 'Any color as long as it is black....'(when speaking about night time topwater)
I can only second Lee on that, my favorite musky myth. As a steady devotee to topwater and high riding bucktails through the years, I have come to realize my favorite lures(tools) for the situation are chosen based on size/speed/action/water conditions/hunch, with color last and being more important to me during the daytime. |
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| john skarie - 1/22/2010 7:59 AM
Personally using Dick's "philosophy" has helped me and others get out of a rut and put fish in the boat.
If you are on a week long trip to LOW for example, and after 3-4 days of pounding rocks when the "should" be there, but they aren't, what do you do? If you do the same thing you'll probably get the same relults.
Changing up has worked for us even when we were conviced we "knew" what we were doing.
Obviously if you use one lure the whole season you will catch fish on it sooner or later, you won't always have the same results. Realizing when what you are doing needs to change is a good thing.
Most infamous saying by a friend of mine., "they don't eat suckers in this lake, tried for years".
That day we caught 4 and lost 5 on meat. Ha Ha.
JS
Sounds to me that you are giving proof that Dick's saying(attributed to him, fairly or not)is incorrect, as I originally stated. You were doing what you usually did, but you WEREN'T getting what you usually got.
My point exactly.  |
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| My favorite of all time "THERE'S ONE!!!!!!"
And...as my great grandfather used to say "Pelican Lake is where wind was made" |
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| Heard this in a bait shop:
"Those muskie have eaten all the crappies in the lake......"
Some guy: "Well I've never seen a muskie with a bellie like yours!"
Chas Martin
http://www.muskymastery.com |
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| Lee_Tauchen - 1/21/2010 10:45 AM
happy hooker - 1/21/2010 10:05 AM
famous outdoor writer who shall remain nameless in the 90's
Minnesota muskie stocking policy assures this will never be a destination for the serious muskie angler
It will be hard to top that one Happy Hooker!
Here's my favorite: "A topwater has got to be BLACK at night for a fish to find its silhouette, otherwise it can't see it."
Folks... what color is a perch at night? Perch colored. A Cisco? Cisco colored. Crappie? Sucker? How about a duckling? You get the point.
Wouldn't you really rather throw the color that you can see the best and just believe they know where their food is? I would.
Lee Tauchen
http://LeeTauchen.com
no i dont get the point
most of these fish have a white belly,and i dont think they have been created to be located with ease.they also have to be hard to detect exactly like musky.of course musky will bite on white belly lures but black is by far the easiest way to get big fish attention especially at night.
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| Pretty much EVERYTHING said on the recent MonsterQuest show about Muskies... |
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Location: Hopefully on the water | My wife know how much all of my Musky stuff really cost me. Boy I truely hope she never knows the actual numbers. |
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| THIS IS A QUOTE BY THE WAY IN RESPONSE TO CAMOUFLADGE. Forgot to use quote option.
Lee_Tauchen - 1/21/2010 10:45 AM
happy hooker - 1/21/2010 10:05 AM
famous outdoor writer who shall remain nameless in the 90's
Minnesota muskie stocking policy assures this will never be a destination for the serious muskie angler
It will be hard to top that one Happy Hooker!
Here's my favorite: "A topwater has got to be BLACK at night for a fish to find its silhouette, otherwise it can't see it."
Folks... what color is a perch at night? Perch colored. A Cisco? Cisco colored. Crappie? Sucker? How about a duckling? You get the point.
Wouldn't you really rather throw the color that you can see the best and just believe they know where their food is? I would.
Lee Tauchen
http://LeeTauchen.com
no i dont get the point
most of these fish have a white belly,and i dont think they have been created to be located with ease.they also have to be hard to detect exactly like musky.of course musky will bite on white belly lures but black is by far the easiest way to get big fish attention especially at night.
Camoufladge, my point was that it probably doesn't matter what color of surface bait you are throwing at night.
My reference to different prey species was merely stating that a muskies food doesn't all turn black at night. A fishes senses seem to be keen enough to find food to eat and survive, regardless of what color it is at night.
Sorry for the confusion.
"White is the new black"
Lee Tauchen
http://LeeTauchen.com
Edited by Lee_Tauchen 1/23/2010 5:46 PM
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Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | Lee_Tauchen - 1/23/2010 5:42 PM
THIS IS A QUOTE BY THE WAY IN RESPONSE TO CAMOUFLADGE. Forgot to use quote option.
Lee_Tauchen - 1/21/2010 10:45 AM
happy hooker - 1/21/2010 10:05 AM
famous outdoor writer who shall remain nameless in the 90's
Minnesota muskie stocking policy assures this will never be a destination for the serious muskie angler
It will be hard to top that one Happy Hooker!
Here's my favorite: "A topwater has got to be BLACK at night for a fish to find its silhouette, otherwise it can't see it."
Folks... what color is a perch at night? Perch colored. A Cisco? Cisco colored. Crappie? Sucker? How about a duckling? You get the point.
Wouldn't you really rather throw the color that you can see the best and just believe they know where their food is? I would.
Lee Tauchen
http://LeeTauchen.com
no i dont get the point
most of these fish have a white belly,and i dont think they have been created to be located with ease.they also have to be hard to detect exactly like musky.of course musky will bite on white belly lures but black is by far the easiest way to get big fish attention especially at night.
Camoufladge, my point was that it probably doesn't matter what color of surface bait you are throwing at night.
My reference to different prey species was merely stating that a muskies food doesn't all turn black at night. A fishes senses seem to be keen enough to find food to eat and survive, regardless of what color it is at night.
Sorry for the confusion.
"White is the new black"
Lee Tauchen
http://LeeTauchen.com
Lee, does that mean I'll have more rytheme than other white guys, and maybe be a better dancer ?.............If ..... "White is the new Black" LOL !
Jerome |
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| "of course musky will bite on white belly lures but black is by far the easiest way to get big fish attention especially at night."
The especially at night part makes no sense. It doesn't matter if a lure is black, white, or yellow. Regardless of it's color, an object (topwater lure) in between a light source (even a night's sky can be this) and a muskies eyes will create a silhouette. The definition of silhouette is "AN OUTLINE OF A SOLID OBJECT (AS CAST BY ITS SHADOW)." Are you telling me that a black topwater lure will cast a shadow any different than a white topwater lure?
All that being said, my favorite color topwater lures are black. They're also the only color topwaters I use. Hmmmm?
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| 25" Girth! 
BG |
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Location: north central wisconsin | Black Or White - 1/24/2010 2:47 AM
"of course musky will bite on white belly lures but black is by far the easiest way to get big fish attention especially at night."
The especially at night part makes no sense. It doesn't matter if a lure is black, white, or yellow. Regardless of it's color, an object (topwater lure) in between a light source (even a night's sky can be this) and a muskies eyes will create a silhouette. The definition of silhouette is "AN OUTLINE OF A SOLID OBJECT (AS CAST BY ITS SHADOW)." Are you telling me that a black topwater lure will cast a shadow any different than a white topwater lure?
Right on. The thought that black will simply outproduce a lighter color at night color is an opinion that's just been proven untrue too many times to hold alot of water... enough that luckily it isn't even in my thought process anymore to first grab a black lure once the sun goes down. Unilaterally grabbing a black lure over the confidence lure with the proper speed and action for the situation, is a perfect fit of a myth for this thread.
Edited by Reef Hawg 1/24/2010 8:45 AM
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'If you are not sure what color to throw, black is always rght!'
There's allot more to this black/white thing than is being discussed here. In order to understand what the fish see, it's important to understand what happens to color when ambient light is very low and even more important to know what the fish's eyes are doing at night.
What color is a perch at night? Shades of black and gray and white, because there's no available wavelengths allowing the oranges, yellows, blues and greens to be seen. The idea behind using black instead after dark is generated by looking at the silhouette/visual real footprint to the FISH of a multi-colored lure in extremely low light and comparing it to black. The black IS at times more visible than the darker colored paints.
Black is absence of all colors, white is presence of all colors, and after dark, there are no colors. It's all about contrast.
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From: http://www.colormatters.com/vis_bk_white.html
Read the intro to understanding colors, it's well done here.
The question:
Are black and white colors when generated as light?
The answers:
1. Black is the absence of color (and is therefore not a color)
Explanation:
When there is no light, everything is black. Test this out by going into a photographic dark room. There are no photons of light. In other words, there are no photons of colors.
2. White is the blending of all colors and is a color.
Explanation:
Light appears colorless or white. Sunlight is white light that is composed of all the colors of the spectrum. A rainbow is proof. You can't see the colors of sunlight except when atmospheric conditions bend the light rays and create a rainbow. You can also use a prism to demonstrate this.
Fact: The sum of all the colors of light add up to white.
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This is additive color theory.
The issue in muskie fishing after dark and muskie vision is contrast, a bit more about that in a minute.
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Now read the subtractive color theory. This is lure painting 101 for what us humans see when the lure is in the package on the shelf.
Read the subtractive theory. Then note this:
Colors exist in the larger context of human vision. Consider the fact that there are three parts to the process of the perception of color.
1. The medium - The color as it exists as a pigment/colorant (such as the color of a tangible object) or as light (such as the color of an image on a television screen).
2. The sender - How the color is transmitted.
3. The receiver - How humans see color. In other words, how we receive information about color.
(If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody around does it make a sound? Does a color exist if there is no one to see it?)
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The BIG one?
this:
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3. The receiver - How humans see color. In other words, how we receive information about color.
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Why? Because Muskies ain't human, and they don't live in the atmosphere.
On a 'biological clock' basis ( NOT OUR TIME, NOT OUR CLOCK), the fish's eye sees color gradually as light comes up. This is a constant, and doesn't necessarily reflect the sun times reflecting shorter and longer days of the seasons. It's very likely when you, as a human, are perfectly capable of seeing color, the muskie is not. Black and white to a combination to color vision and the reverse is a process each day and night, not an event. After dark, muskies do not see color at all. The cone cells (color receptors) are pulled back, and rod cells (B&W only) extend. Rod cell vision is many times more capable of seeing in very low light than cone cell vision. Muskies see way better after dark than we do.
Now, lets talk water. Water acts as a giant prism, and bends and absorbs light as heat energy. Even during the day, it doesn't take a very long time for turbidity and the prism effect of water to remove many of the colors we see on the surface. Even in the daytime....muskie do NOT see the same colors we see on lures. Why? Because those colors don't exist down there. If a wavelength of light has been absorbed some, or completely, that wavelength reflected by the object back to the muskie's eye will be much less. Green, a mixture of blue and yellow, will be a shade of black, but will be 'less black' than black is. Red will be almost as good as black at being black.
OK, now let's apply this somewhat oversimplification to the water at night.
First, the angle of attack the muskie takes will differ at night depending on ambient light. If it's calm, the lure will be represented to the fish as a 'blob' or 'hole' moving on the surface. Line leading from the lure and breaking the surface will look like a crack in a mirror.
'Periscope vision?'
Light striking the water at less than 10 degrees (moonlight or artificial light sources like city center light reflection) is reflected away. A fish approaching your lure looking up at 42degrees actually sees the reflected lightwaves from the lure at 10 to 20 degrees on the surface of calm water. This is called the 'periscope effect'. What does this do to the above discussion of 'shadows' cast by a lure?
OK, now let's look at backgrounds, as contrast is the key to the muskie seeing the lure. An absolutely dark (no moonlight) but clear night will create a sort of hazy bit of ambient light at that 42 degrees mentioned above. The darker the lure, the better the contrast. If there's available moonlight, the effect is heightened. Since heightened amounts of ambient light are available, other color combinations may become shades of black to gray, and may offer some contrast IF the fish can see the lure that well. Remember, muskies are horribly near sighted.
If the night sky had no stars, it would be truly, absolutely black, but that condition doesn't exist and is the ONLY background against which true black doesn't contrast. Cloudy nights, although very dark, do offer some reflected light if one is anywhere near any artificial light sources. If not, a cloudy night can mimic pretty closely starless space, but never will quite get there. Black will contrast. Depending on how much light is available, white may as well to a degree. Remember, white doesn't exist in extreme darkness, and keep in mind, the water is bending those wavelengths all along the way.
Also keep in mind, the black and white only rod cells in the fish's eye are about 30 times more receptive to light than cone cells. Humans don't see well after 'dark'....muskies do.
So that's where the idea came about that black is always correct if one isn't sure...it will, under almost all circumstances, allow for contrast and therefore will be visible to the muskie whether it's dark, light, or in between. Of COURSE, there are literally thousands of variables, and a Muskie doesn't find the lure strictly by sight. A footprint that elicits a strike response will get eaten if the fish can see it, missed allot if not. There's your sign...
And, once waves begin ruffling the surface, all bets are off. That's a whole 'nother diatribe.
My 2 cents on an old axiom.
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| Wow Steve! I was just talking about muskie fishing. LOL.
Pretty impressive thoughts here. Thanks for sharing Steve.
Perhaps I should have started a different thread on what color does everyone throw at night? I really only posted my opinion due to my own success on white baits at night.
All kidding aside, I personally do prefer the most visible color to me for surface baits during day or night. This is simply for the fact that I (me) can find it easier, and to see if the bait has disappeared from the surface. Say you get a blow-up on your topwater when you are looking at your graph during daylight, a bright colored bait will be easier to see (or not) if a fish got a hold of it.
"A topwater is nothing more than a bobber with hooks on it... when the bobber goes down, you got one!"
Well, back to making lures. Thanks for commenting.
Lee Tauchen
http://LeeTauchen.com
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| My fav.... ''muskies are the smartest fish, thats why they are the hardest to catch''. I always thought that they were just a big dumb fish that could be caught with just about anything. Like for example ''pine cones'' or even a ''childs block''. But I guess they would have to be black to work at night.
Just funnin!
Fun thread! when there has been so many serious ones lately. |
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Location: north central wisconsin | Great explanation Steve. I wouldn't argue with any of it, and in fact subscribe to much of the color theories/facts when choosing lures on a given day. Also, I know you have educated many on the virtues of color management over the years.
Experience by my tribe and myself showing how correctly chosen non black lures(and as Lee mentioned, especially those easier for me to see) produce equal to or better than my black ones are the only reason for answering the question at the onset of this thread in that manner. 'Any lure as long as its black' was pounded into my head by my dad for as long as I can remember... funny how now he finally sees the 'light' regarding that subject, and yellow topraider happens to be his favorite topwater day or night.
Anyhow, I don't think anyone can argue the facts regarding light transmission, and what we or fish can see best, as you pointed out. Just as nobody can argue that a 'certain' yeller topwater can and will outfish a black one every time the situation is right for 'that' yeller one to come out and play. Guess my point is that size/action/speed trumps color almost unilaterally in my confidence dept.
That said, my trusty black globe is my favorite topwater at night when the sit. calls for a globe. That bait rocks!!!!!
Edited by Reef Hawg 1/24/2010 5:09 PM
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| Topwater at night? I've always wanted to put hooks on a glow stick and walk the dog with it. I don't expect I'd catch many fish doing that, but would be worth a bunch of laughs in the boat. And if you did get a fish to eat one it would be really cool to see it just dissapear.
As for colors at night? I always figured that any color lure will have the same profile against whatever ambient light exists, and that any variations in color wouldn't be visible anyway. Muskies seem to be pretty good at eating, so I don't worry like I used to about making it easier for them. If they want it, they'll eat it. What steve says is interesting, and probably 100% accurate. But for night fishing, I am more concerned about ME being able to see what I am doing. |
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Location: Davenport, IA | An old timer told me, "The bigger they are, the sweeter they are."
"There's a ton of muskies in this lake" "I catch them all the time bass fishing. I've caught 10 in a day." |
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Location: St. Lawrence River | " hey look, my average sized musky just ate your trophy bass." |
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Location: deephaven mn | THERE IS ALWAYS A FISH ON THIS SPOT !
I MEAN ALWAYS.....ALWAYS |
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| kap - 1/25/2010 2:33 PM
THERE IS ALWAYS A FISH ON THIS SPOT !
I MEAN ALWAYS.....ALWAYS
Well, when I say that in my boat it is always true. I mean always. |
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Location: Hugo, MN |
They are COLD Blooded animals . . . when it gets cold they don't burn off as many calories just like those humans who sit inside all winter . . .
Sam Ubl - 1/21/2010 9:50 PM
"Musky put the feedbag on in the fall!"
Simply not the case and very misunderstood. Musky begin forming eggs in the late summer and continue to do so throughout the fall and winter - the reason for the heavy bellies. Fish in the fall are actually very lethargic and less hungry than what is commonly interpreted. |
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Location: Roscoe IL | The one I lost was bigger!
We saw a 50"er follow it in & it got spooked next to the boat.
She was all of 50
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| Around hear I always hear canoers say "I saw a muskie one time when I was floating the river as big as a railroad tie" OR "It had to be 5 0r 6 feet long"! I just agree with them! LOL!
Brian
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| JakeStCroixSkis - 1/24/2010 6:29 PM
" hey look, my average sized musky just ate your trophy bass."
That one is awesome. Love it.
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They are COLD Blooded animals . . . when it gets cold they don't burn off as many calories just like those humans who sit inside all winter . . .
Agreed! Smaller males get fat too! Its a metabolism thing not just an egg thing! However, I always thought I get fat during the winter cause I'm not chuckin pounders and burning girls all day! But I'm gonna start blaming it on metabolism too! |
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| To continue on the Lee and Steve; Black at night topic. I think your both right but I'm with Lee as it relates to musky fishing! What the musky sees isn't that important to me and, yes, their prey isn't black! I don't really want them to clearly see my bait simply because it will look like, well, a bait and not their prey. Far more important IMHO,is what they hear(or, more accurately, feel) especially when fishing topwater! I've had more success in low light with baits that are "noisy" or that displace a large amount of water. IMHO the immense success of the DCG proves the key sense when feeding is the lateral line. Of course, there are certainly times when sight and color play an important role and it's important to understand the nature of light and color to muskies as well as the effect of water on light, however its secondary to the lateral line. Just my $.02 |
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Location: Maple Grove, MN | I think one needs to take the water color or tint into account. I think one should carry a color diagram and then let it drop below the water to see which color is visable longer. And then use that color. Not!
I think its best to not think so much and just fish. Throw lure out, reel it in, repeat. If one presentation doesn't work after a while, try something else and repeat.
How about this saying " The fish was so big, I filled my pants". Or maybe this was true?
Edited by Herb_b 1/26/2010 1:07 PM
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| Im retiring |
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| My favorite untrue...
Find baitfish and you'll find muskies.
So you don't believe in a food chain? I will always believe in the baitfish theory. But, beleive what you want. |
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