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| Message Subject: Why is it illegal? | |||
| esoxaddict |
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Posts: 8856 | J.Sloan - 9/27/2008 10:41 AM Still can't figure out how a sportfishing technique kills fish, not the person implimenting it. Pencils also mispell words, and guns have been known to pull their own trigger. JS Trolling doesn't kill fish, that's true Jason. But I do believe that opening the lakes in Vilas and Oneida counties to trolling would put a a segment of the population who ordinarily would not muskie fish on the water, the same crowd who A. Would not know how to safely release a fish and B. Would be far less likely to release them anyway. It's not that trolling is bad. Its what could and likely would happen if you were allowed to troll that's bad. I'm not against trolling at all. I'll admit there have been times when I looked around on a tough day and thought "CRAP I wish we could troll!" and no times when I've ever been anywhere else and thought "crap, I wish we couldn't troll here!" I really only have two reasons for agreeing with the trolling ban 1. Tradition isn't always a bad thing 2. If you give people a way to mess something up, you can guarantee that someone will. The pontoon trollers are a perfect example or that. And those are the same people who probably wouldn't put forth the time and effort to go out there and cast if they weren't allowed to troll. | ||
| Kingfisher |
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Posts: 1106 Location: Muskegon Michigan | Gander Mt Guide - 9/26/2008 6:59 PM "Kingfisher, You can troll in a MI/WI boundry lake with a WI liscence also but you can only troll on the MI sign." LVD is the only wis/mich boundry water you can troll the Michigan side from. Stated right in the Michigan regs. Almost Wrong, Michigan regulations booklet states that you are bound by the license that you hold. If you hold a Michigan License you are to follow Michigan rules on Border waters. LVD , SMOKEY, CHAULK HILLS, IMpoundment etc etc etc . If you hold a Wisconsin license you follow Wisconsin rules. Especially Smokey which has about 100 feet in Wisconsin and 98 percent in Michigan. I troll the whole lake and never even get into Wisconsin waters. Ill get a paste from the DNR WEBSITE. Kingfisher Itried to paste it but got a lot of little squares. True about Lac V.D. The first paragragh in the Michigan regs on Border waters states this. If regulations differ then you are follow the rules in the license that you have. This applies to all border waters except LVD. Where trolling is only allowed on the Michigan side of the line. THE BOTTOM LINE IS THIS, If you follow your states rules you are following the lawregarding border waters. Kingfisher Edited by Kingfisher 9/27/2008 11:55 PM | ||
| john skarie |
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Posts: 221 Location: Detroint Lakes, MN | I didn't read through every single post, but there seems to be a theme of "trolling = more fish dying" theme going on. I would ask for those that think that way to provide one example of a lake where trollers were responsible for a declining fishery. Trolling has been a tradition in MN and Canada for decades. Many of the most well-known muskie men in MN and Canada are serious trollers in the fall and other times of the year as well. The notion that trolling is done by people who can't catch them casting, or are lazy, or don't know how to release them, or won't release them is completely absurd. Bottome line, trolling is illegal because a segment of fishermen in WI didn't like it. There was and is no biological reason to outlaw trolling. JS | ||
| Kingfisher |
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Posts: 1106 Location: Muskegon Michigan | john skarie - 9/28/2008 9:10 AM I didn't read through every single post, but there seems to be a theme of "trolling = more fish dying" theme going on. I would ask for those that think that way to provide one example of a lake where trollers were responsible for a declining fishery. Trolling has been a tradition in MN and Canada for decades. Many of the most well-known muskie men in MN and Canada are serious trollers in the fall and other times of the year as well. The notion that trolling is done by people who can't catch them casting, or are lazy, or don't know how to release them, or won't release them is completely absurd. Bottome line, trolling is illegal because a segment of fishermen in WI didn't like it. There was and is no biological reason to outlaw trolling. JS Well said, Kingfisher | ||
| Gander Mt Guide |
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Posts: 2515 Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | Page 58 of the WDNR regs, second to last bullet........"Trolling is permitted on Wisconsin-Michigan boundry waters EXCEPT Vilas County boundry waters, where trolling is prohibited" So with a Wisconsin permit, if you're trolling any boundry water (michigan side) you're in violation. Michigan wardens won't launch in Wisconsin waters to patrol when there's no Michigan launch (Tenderfoot is a perfect example), enforcement is up to WDNR. Thus the total no troll with a Wisconsin permit. I have been told that because the Michigan regs allow trolling the Michigan side of LVD, WDNR wouldn't be enforcing any trolling on the Mich side of LVD...."we have plenty to do in Wisconsin waters, than worry about what happens on the Michigan side of Lac Vieux Desert"...Mike McKenzie, Vilas Co WDNR Even with a Michigan permit, according to their regs on Boundry Waters,you're only allowed to troll the Michigan side of LVD. Edited by Gander Mt Guide 9/28/2008 11:53 AM | ||
| castmaster |
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![]() Posts: 910 Location: Hastings, mn, 55033 | "Even with a Michigan permit, according to their regs on Boundry Waters,you're only allowed to troll the Michigan side of LVD." Isnt that what Kingfisher stated 3 posts above this?? This here is the MAJOR problem we are facing in this country. People get so defensive in support of their position or opinion that they really dont hear what others are saying. I see it on these boards and to a much greater extent in society in general. Until we open our minds to opinions and ideas that are different from our own we are doomed to repeat past mistakes. For example Steve mentioning that opening trolling would open it for ALL species, and I can see where there may be concern with an increase in the harvest of walleyes. Definitely something to take into account, and something I think many forget to factor into this debate seeing as we focus mainly on muskies. A wise man once said...." God gave us 2 ears and one mouth so we could listen twice as much as we talk". To bad MANY more people dont follow that. Instead they have this idea that debates are won not on merits of the argument but by talking over people and being the loudest voice. | ||
| sworrall |
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Posts: 32951 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | JS, CastMASTER, well said. | ||
| Pointerpride102 |
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Posts: 16632 Location: The desert | john skarie - 9/28/2008 8:10 AM I would ask for those that think that way to provide one example of a lake where trollers were responsible for a declining fishery. Lake Trout in the great lakes. Ok, ok so it was mostly commercial fishing but there was still some general angler input into thier decline. Its a bad example but an example nonetheless. Tradition is right on. I'd be fine with opening trolling, but then none of my fish would count. | ||
| jonnysled |
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Posts: 13688 Location: minocqua, wi. | easy Ben ... was out fishing (casting) while you've been fishing by keyboard. i'm a traditionaliset, against changing things based on my own experiences on the water ... there are always those for and those against. i'm for what it is right now and against any changes ... we got 6 fish casting this weekend and lost 2 more ... and had a blast on a nice quiet northwoods lake with nobody trolling through or around us ... ahhhhhhh the peace and quiet of the northwoods ... rippin' cranks on the deep edges thankfully with padded rod handles ... : ) | ||
| john skarie |
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Posts: 221 Location: Detroint Lakes, MN | Pointer; I'm assuming that commercial fising of lakers meant they were keeping catches. That's really not a fair comparison to trollers that release muskies. Obviously some trollers don't, but the context of commercial fishermen doesn't really applly to a comparison to muskie fishermen. At any rate, I'll continue to troll and not feel on bit guilty of being a "fish killer", or lazy or anythng else. Hope you all have a good season. JS | ||
| Pointerpride102 |
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Posts: 16632 Location: The desert | JS, Apparently you didnt read this part "Its a bad example". Of course commercial fisherman are keeping their catch. What kind of commercial fishery releases everything? | ||
| firstsixfeet |
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Posts: 2361 | john skarie - 9/28/2008 8:10 AM I didn't read through every single post, but there seems to be a theme of "trolling = more fish dying" theme going on. I would ask for those that think that way to provide one example of a lake where trollers were responsible for a declining fishery. Trolling has been a tradition in MN and Canada for decades. Many of the most well-known muskie men in MN and Canada are serious trollers in the fall and other times of the year as well. The notion that trolling is done by people who can't catch them casting, or are lazy, or don't know how to release them, or won't release them is completely absurd. Bottome line, trolling is illegal because a segment of fishermen in WI didn't like it. There was and is no biological reason to outlaw trolling. JS will post once more, even at the risk of once again upsetting some of the thinner skinned posters on the board. Luckily, I don't believe John to be particularly dainty. IJohn, your first point, trolling= more fish dying, actually that point can be made rather easily. Here's some reasoning #1 More trophy fish caught means more trophy fish die. #2 All you guys need to go back and re read Oneida Esox's post on this thread. I don't even believe he states a viewpoint on trolling in it, he simply gives some oral history. I was fishing the Chip when the backtrolling thing occurred, but have heard the same story independent of Oneida's sources, from both a DNR fish manager and NE WI fishermen. #3 Numbers of fish handled is directly proportional to numbers of fish killed by handling, no way to avoid this with an increase in the catch, and hey, and when fish get off the shallow weedlines and suspend in deeper water during warm weather, instead of a dead bite, now fisherman can go out and catch them, hall them up out of the depths into the warm surface temps and then work to land and unhook them. #4 Easily trolled lakes will increase the chance of a fish encountering an incompetent handler or a trophy seeker out to impress the back yard neighbors. Actually, I don't think, in a perfect world, trolling=more fish dying(although actually it would equate to that, because it would equate to more fish being caught and...see above about increased handling/increased death relationship), so, sorry everybody, we live in an imperfect world. Legalize trolling and first the sharp fisherman would hit the lakes along with the guides, quickly zeroing on heretofore, unkown riches. Then word gets out and they get hammered. See handling losses and trophy harvest above. Ask knowledgeable fisherman about the ability of fisherman alone to change the size structure, trophy population, and actual population in lakes, and they can quickly refer to lakes they have known or perhaps some well known lakes with situations that have been publicized. Here's a lake to think about, Wabigoon. Bigger water there, but clearly a situation where angling pressure affected the population dynamic of muskies. Trolling lake example of trollers affecting a fishery, easy, Delevan Lake northern pike fishery. Declining in quality and numbers due to the high quality, easy trolling fishery it once was. Pound the heck out of a population, handle a bunch of fish, harvest some trophies and things change. Probable example of trolling affecting a musky lake, Green River. Comparing huge water areas where musky aren't even the main focus of most fisherman to the collection of smaller NE WI waters seems to be a repeated theme on this thread, but hey let's get real, it aint an apples to apples comparison in any way shape or form. As for noted musky men trolling, I am not sure exactly how that relates to the argument. Let me throw this out, noted politicians have been found to engage in unethical and at times illegal behaviours. Is that what you mean? I think a lot of people tuned in to watch Pete Mania over at the Bay with the multi rod set, the planers, the big spread. Caught a couple nice fish, but not exactly heart pounding action landing them. Want to see those things show up on Trout Lake, High, Twin, The Mani Chain? How about cabin owners taking their guest out now for not only a tour of the lake on the big boat, but also musky fishing excursions??? How about those guys east of Detroit with their spreads. Want to see those all over Minnie, Tomahawk, Big, maybe the Eagle River Chain? In the perfect world, we would all troll just a simple setup and a couple lines right? Actually John, trolling is done by "people who can't catch them casting, and people that are lazy, and those that cannot release them and those that will not release them" and I can guarantee it. I have seen it too many times. I sometimes think musky trollers envision all musky trollers as a generalized personification of themselves. You envision a high catch and release ethic, good handling, fish respecting bunch of trollers out there, not only catching and releasing a bunch of musky, but having a darn good time doing it, while protecting and enhancing the environment, the world and the fellowship of man. NEWSFLASH Bad things happen to good lakes. I have shoreline trolled in KY, no problem, no cover anyway since it has all eroded into the lake, start that and tear up delicate weed fringes while eroding shorelines, heck, speed troll the same, helluva wake that way! Get out there and troll the isolated weed beds on flats.....until they're gone. Roll out that 60 foot spread until every body in the lake has to detour around you to get from point a to z, and then if they do clip your line, get in a shouting, car keying, shooting confrontation with them. It Guides will make maximum use of any trolling law. If I was a guide I think I would want it too. I have fished enough newbies and dudes over the years to know that it is harder than heck to get an incompetent a musky. I have proved to myself, and maybe the world, that incompetents, heck, even me, can catch muskies trolling, Dudes can simply reel them in! I guess if I were the counties in NE WI that restrict(not ban)trolling to row boats, I would want to continue the ban on motor trolling, just on the basis of the Law of Uninteded Consequences. I see a lot of good reasons to not allow trolling in this area. No, they aren't all scientific, but hey, I think they are all good. | ||
| BenR |
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| You see Sled and Firstsixfeet...the idea that you guys are currently taking a moment to think before your posting is encouraging and you are learning...I can appreciate your growth..cheers...Ben | |||
| Baby Mallard |
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| I fish MN waters. I don't have a problem with trolling as long as it is done appropriately. I think people who use suckers is more unethical than trolling. Again, I don't have a problem with people using suckers as long as it is done appropriately. I will be trolling this fall a lot, and I guarantee you all of those fish will be released as good, if not better than all of the fish I caught casting all summer. Actually, I know they will be released better because of the cooler water temperatures the mortality rate decreases. Also, the point that more muskies being caught results in more dead muskies is true. But, that is like saying the cowgirl catches so many fish, so maybe we should ban that lure because it is catching too many fish. Banning trolling because it will catch too many fish is laughable. The cowgirl has been such a hot bait, resulting in more fish being caught and more fish dieing because of it. Should we ban the cowgirl? LOL Edited by Baby Mallard 9/28/2008 11:56 PM | |||
| john skarie |
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Posts: 221 Location: Detroint Lakes, MN | Saying that more fish will be caught if trolling is allowed is an assumption. I have been on the water many times where trollers get blanked while casters catch fish that day. Some of you make it sound like trolling is some magical tactict that puts fish in the boat day in and day out. That couldn't be further from the truth. As far as using Wabigoon as an example, I don't think it was trolling that killed all those fish. It was casting and soaking suckers. If the logic is that trolling is bad because more fish will be caught leading to more delayed mortality, than should we suypport having limits on how many fish you can catch in a year no matter what the tactic. Or how many days you should be able to fish in a season? Is the guys who fishes on week a year and trolls going to kill more by delayed mortality than the guy fishing on a weekly basis casting? If you don't like trolling fine, but this attitude that trollers are more harmful than casters to the fishery is not realistic or based on any kind of sound logic. JS | ||
| Gander Mt Guide |
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Posts: 2515 Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | "Saying that more fish will be caught if trolling is allowed is an assumption." Ask Herbeck how well he did backtrolling North Twin. His susccess was part of the reason there's a no troll up there. Its not an assumption that if you cover more water, quicker, you're going to see more fish, its matter of math. I don't agree with the folks who are saying it's more harmfull though. Any time a fish bites into hooks, its not going to be pretty for the fish, whether it's casting or trolling. | ||
| millsie |
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Posts: 189 Location: Barrington, Il | Herbie caught more fish on single hook sucker rigs on North Twin than trolling. He still regrets it. The only fish he killed trolling was the 47# from Trout. Why is it OK to fish a breakline with suckers but not a trolled lure? | ||
| jonnysled |
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Posts: 13688 Location: minocqua, wi. | this whole thing has been discussed and we're now moving toward the same place all historical threads have ... but, millsie you bring up a good point. north twin, trout ... maybe tom, pelican and a couple more are unique to the majority of smaller lakes in oneida and vilas county and would be the place to start if there were to be an initiative to change the current status. you bring up a good question ... over and under on the locking of this thread is about 4 more posts | ||
| john skarie |
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Posts: 221 Location: Detroint Lakes, MN | You can troll spinnerbaits till your blue in the face, but if that's not the presentation fish want you won't catch anything. I catch more fish a year casting per hour of effort than trolling. Most of my fishing partners would say the same. JS | ||
| MuskyStalker |
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Posts: 317 | I do not troll unless casting isn't working (but I support the right to troll), and I absolutely love the northwoods, but trolling wrecking a lake? Please! Try upping the 34" limits first. Yeah, a bunch of big fish were kept when trolling was legal, but that was a long time ago. Musky fishing has changed, that just wouln't happen now. As far as fishing on ugly water is concerned, I'd rather catch big fish.... Edited by MuskyStalker 9/29/2008 3:01 PM | ||
| jonnysled |
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Posts: 13688 Location: minocqua, wi. | MuskyStalker - 9/29/2008 2:58 PM Musky fishing has changed, that just wouln't happen now. .... go to boulder jct. sometime... you would be surprised at how things have not changed | ||
| Gander Mt Guide |
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Posts: 2515 Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | "over and under on the locking of this thread is about 4 more posts" I dunno, its been pretty civil if you ask me. Boulder Junction has changed, haven't you noticed all the cool new lights and parking spaces? They resurfaced the whole town about 2 years ago. | ||
| Gander Mt Guide |
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Posts: 2515 Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | "I catch more fish a year casting per hour of effort than trolling. " Ask Mike Koepp, Dan Busch, Dennis Radloff and Steve Milliat if the same holds true for them. Remember, we can troll three lines here. Hard to cast three lines at one time. | ||
| john skarie |
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Posts: 221 Location: Detroint Lakes, MN | Maybe the answer lies somewhere in changing the 3 line rule. For those that claim delayed mortality worries because of increased catches, how can you not want to ban 3 lines when muskie fishing? How many more fish are caught because you can drag a sucker and cast? | ||
| jonnysled |
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Posts: 13688 Location: minocqua, wi. | john skarie - 9/29/2008 3:54 PM Maybe the answer lies somewhere in changing the 3 line rule. that along with applicable bodies of water are the notions that could make sense for a debate and potential changes to the current state. this whole argument gets misconstrued seasonally because there are some unique circumstances to consider. it's not a black and white topic when you put everything into the logic for or against. and whether it's popular or not there are some things that are most easily understood having a front-row seat in the area. a few that come to mind: - number of lines allowed - size limits vs. stocking and population dynamics - size and structure of lakes not unlike the pelican lake limit ... it may work for some but is not appropriate for all lakes in the area. | ||
| esoxaddict |
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Posts: 8856 | john skarie - 9/29/2008 3:54 PM Maybe the answer lies somewhere in changing the 3 line rule. For those that claim delayed mortality worries because of increased catches, how can you not want to ban 3 lines when muskie fishing? How many more fish are caught because you can drag a sucker and cast? If we could pick and choose, I'd favor trolling along with increased size limits, minimum lake size restrictions, and a one line per angler rule. But since we all know that's not going to happen any time soon, I gotta put my trolling vote squarely in the "leave well enough alone" box. | ||
| reelman |
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Posts: 1270 | GMG, Comparing Ratloff's trolling on Green Bay to trooling up north is ludicrous! You try casting a body of water like GB and tell me how well you do at it! I get a kick out of people who are saying that it's so nice to be up north and not have to worry about the noise made by trollers. Are you guys serious? With all the ski boats and PWC's you are worried about the noise of someone trolling at 4mph with a 8 horse 4 stroke? If trolling were legal there wouldn't be a law saying that you had to do it. You could still cast till your heart is content. It would just allow those of us who have the equipement and knowledge for trolling to do it. BTW I would still mainlly cast but it would be a nice option when I'm tired or moving from spot tot spot. | ||
| jonnysled |
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Posts: 13688 Location: minocqua, wi. | reelman - 9/29/2008 11:30 PM I get a kick out of people who are saying that it's so nice to be up north and not have to worry about the noise made by trollers. Are you guys serious? t. i get a kick out of all the dupage county authorities regarding life in northern wisconsin. name thirty or forty lakes without looking at a map and then tell me you know our waters and what's best for them. | ||
| reelman |
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Posts: 1270 | I don't have to live there to know that ski boats and PWC's are louder and more annoying than someone trolling with a 8hp 4 stroke. ANd why are they "your" lakes? I own them as muh as you do. And where the heck is DuPage County? | ||
| sworrall |
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Posts: 32951 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | reelman has a point, the waters do belong to everyone, that's the way it is. Therein lies the problem. I think we all 'get it', some folks approve, some don't, and for varying reasons. So far, I see equal merit in several arguments made in this discussion, let's stick to the subject, please. | ||
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