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Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | Skarie, call me 612-201-0209 |
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| The problem as I see it, John, is that people are reluctant to offer any sort of help. Whether its financial, or volunteering, or even writing a letter or sending an e mail, the feeling I get is that A. People are convinced that nothing they do will do any good, and B. There's no immediate tangible benefit to them personally (i.e. what's in it for me...)
The cynic in me thinks that people are mostly in it for themselves and would rather take than give. (this "me first" attitude seems to prevail in most aspects of society today.) The only remedy I see to that is to convince people they aren't doing this for the fishery, the furure, the lakes, the kids, etc. but that whatever efforts they make are a direct benefit to THEM. You can't guilt people into doing anything at all, that just makes them resent you and your efforts. |
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| Hmmmm......this post has lasted much longer than I expected.
Sworrall is not a Deadhead, but I'm aware that he typically considers a very wide and deep perspective(s) on any given subject. He'll tell you what he knows plus his opinion, or, he'll tell you he doesn't know much. He rarely jumps to conclusions, he prefers to be educated if the subject is worthy of his attention. Such an approach is typical of wise people who have been exposed to vastly different perspectives of "reality". This is demonstrated by his statement..."'what one believes is real is based upon one's perception'". Simple yet profound.
Back to the subject at hand.....I don't/won't join MI because they seem arrogant around here. I preach CPR to everyone I sell my leaders and crawler harnesses to. I put up home-made signs regarding CPR at musky lakes that I fish. People tear them down, I tack up new ones. I am making a difference, very small, but I'm doing my best.
Spoiled? As compared to what? "Spoiled", like "fast", is a relative term and must be compared to some established standard in order to determine the gap between the two. In the context of the initial post there's no standard for "spoiled", thus the question can't really be answered in "yes" or "no" terms. But Treat's post is thought-provoking and folks are giving it serious considerations and THAT is the most valuable outcome of Treat's initial post.
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Location: minocqua, wi. | i think he and john skarie have since both tried to put the subject out there independent of MI which is fair and we should consider it based on that ...
it's not a MI debate but one that says ... "how do you wake people up so that the future is protected" ...
right? |
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Location: Not where I wanna be! | jonnysled - 6/23/2008 3:30 PM
"how do you wake people up so that the future is protected" ...
Educate,
Enlighten,
Share,
Teach,
and practice what you preach
all of this is possible without money, but money can make all these methods reach many, many more people, but if you dont have the resources to financially invest in furthering the sport, invest in the people that participate and that in itself will preserve much of what we have.
there will always be people able to fork out coin to support what they believe in, and yes it is needed. But there will also be those who cant do that, so rather than alienating them, thank them for giving of what they can! thats better than criticizing IMO..... |
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Location: NW WI | sworrall - 6/21/2008 1:02 AM
Hopeful,
Two sides to every coin, two sides...
It's always, and I mean alway been a few who 'get it done' to the benefit of the many. Human nature. And in most cases, it's a good thing, too many good folks crashing around in the kitchen ruins a good cook's day. Just send money, like Matt said, sorta.
There will always be those who work long and hard to preserve and improve our lives all the way around, and those who live in that benefit with no clue at all who done it. There are those who are aware of who helps make our Muskie angling better and more enjoyable, and for more reasons than are listable here, can't help much. Treats, we're actually in pretty good shape these days...at least we can get the word out when help is needed, fast and efficiently. Every one of us have to decide what we are able to do, and then do it without any expectation of much fanfare.
No sorority here in Northern Wisconsin, Ben, just folks looking to enjoy a day on the water and mebbe in the process catch a Muskie or two. As was so wisely stated, paraphrasing here... 'what one believes is real is based upon one's perception'.
In this post if you substituted the word "snowmobiling" for "muskie angling" you'd be describing the same thing going on here in Wisconsin.....a relative few doing the work for the benefit of many.
It's sad that this applies to more things than just muskie fishing and snowmobiling.  |
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Location: oswego, il | jonnysled - 6/23/2008 3:30 PM
it's not a MI debate but one that says ... "how do you wake people up so that the future is protected" ...
right?
I stated this more or less in my first post and it's to get the international involved. Get the magazine involved. Get the readers of the magazine involved. When the international does this the masses will see it's value more. Right now it's on the shoulders of the individual chapters. No one voice. It's hard to get chapter accomplishments to the forefront of musky fishing awareness without the international getting more involved.
I am proud member of M.I. and a contributing board member to my chapter. Not everyone has the time, everyone has their own situation. I can't blame anyone for not being a member because the look at the international and what it stands for or lack thereof and not what the chapters are doing. As I stated before, I think our new president sees this vision and I hope it gets done. |
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | Ranger - 6/23/2008 4:25 PM Back to the subject at hand.....I don't/won't join MI because they seem arrogant around here. I preach CPR to everyone I sell my leaders and crawler harnesses to. I put up home-made signs regarding CPR at musky lakes that I fish. People tear them down, I tack up new ones. I am making a difference, very small, but I'm doing my best. Seem arrogant? Have you actually met and talked to the people that run your local MI chapter? I often hear arrogant and/or elitist used when someone or a group is simply proud of the difference they make. |
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| I was very involved for a decent amount of time...VP of my chapter of MI back in the day. A few things happened on the national level and I no longer can be a member. It is just not a club on a national level that I would want to be associated with it. In NJ before moving to CO last summer I went to meetings, helped on guide for a day, helped the DNR shock and net fish. However I did not join, and won't. You don't need to join to help, you don't need to help to be good fisherman or person. We always speak of the great stick we all know that is as good as the pros, but doesn't want the recognition. I am guessing in the realm of helping the sport there are many that just don't want the credit...but do help out quite a bit....Ben |
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| Many of the people enjoying our Muskie Mecca have no understanding or appreciation of how it came to be. Many of these people have probably never even heard of muskies inc. Is it their fault? The great thing about America is that we have the freedom to do as we choose. We also have a heritage of volunteerism (ie. non-govt special interest action.
Muskies Inc has defenitely failed in reqruitment and exposure efforts. We are working to change that. But as some of the people on this board know full well the success we have had has been done by a small minority of members contributing countless hours and dollars to improve the resource.
One thing I have a problem with are those profiting on the resource without giving back.
Regardless it is up to us to spread the message. Good muskie fishing, fishing in general, water quality and the heritage of conservation takes two things: money and time.
For those who have not taken the step to join us we invite you take that step. Whats the worst thing that can happen? Maybe you will make some new friends and catch some more fish. In fact I guarantee you this will happen.
Join our great little niche in the heritage of conservation and make a difference. You will recieve 10X as much as you give.
What could be more American?
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| Since this is basicly in regards to Minnesota Muskie issues Im wondering WHY hasent someone started an alternative muskie club/org here???
people point to, infact gloat that MI only has about 10% of all muskie fisherman has members then expect Muskies inc to defend itself about that!!!
Im wondering WHY the other 90% havent organized in some other way thats a bigger question??? I totally respect that maybe some people dont agree with MI policys or other issues But what I dont respect is people saying "well Id love to get involved in the muskie resource but NOT throug MI"
In this vast resource of 90% nobody has the balls or ambition to try to organize another alternative club,,its much easier now then it was 40 some years ago,,two major muskie magazines,,numerous muskie websites, buletin boards at musky shops, all this available to spread the word and organize,none of these advantages were available when MI started it was started with good old fashion get off the couch ambition..Im a very active Minnesota MI member and I would LOVE to see another alternative muskie club started so we have another voice to be heard by the dnr but all the people that would have the ambition to start something like that have already joined MI.
only 500 or so public responses to the dnr long range plan,,at public dnr open house muskie issue meetings the same 25-30 guys show up you might has well print up name badges ahead of time, still no alternative club now or brewing.
youd love to put a positive spin on it but it just seems to all add up to laziness and bystander apathy
Edited by happy hooker 6/24/2008 9:34 AM
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| Hooker, apathy certainly plays a part. But I believe perception plays a part as well. I've tried to get people to come to meetings, maybe fish some of the club outings or tournaments, join with no chapter affiliation. Some of the responses were astounding:
"what? Why would I want to waste a Wednesday night that I could spend with my family sitting around with a bunch of fat beer swilling flannel shirt wearning muskie fishermen?"
"Nah, I gave up being in "clubs" when I was a kid"
"So, do you play in a bowling leage, too? Got a shirt with your name embriodered on it and everything?"
"$35?! What do I get for $35? Some stupid magazine?"
"I'm not paying to line someone else's pockets"
It seems a lot of people fail to see any benefit from becoming a member. Even when you mention the fisheries and research aspect to people, a lot of them think research is a waste of time. And stocking is something we don't have to worry about because the fishing is good.
When it comes to youth, unless its their own kid most people really don't care. So yes, apathy and laziness I suppose, but I think its a lot more to do with people being selfish, and not wanting to do ANYTHING unless there's more benefit in it for them directly than the effort they have to put into it.
We can change the perception of what muskie inc is and does, but how do we change the fact that people are for the most part only looking out for themselves??
Edited by esoxaddict 6/24/2008 10:45 AM
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| how do we change the fact that people are for the most part only looking out for themselves??
you don't.
you recognize it as organic and you use it to your advantage.
show that your goals are in that person's interest (in a real, meaningful, and immediate way) and you've got them.
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Lambeau if the answer was that simple than every muskie fishermen in the midwest would already be a member of MI.
The reality of the situation is people find it much easier to come up with excuses why they don't need to be involved than care about the reasons why they should be.
JS
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| I guess I will chime in here. If I was shown a way that joining MI would benefit me and my State's fishery I would in a heart beat. All I ever hear is that MI is fighting a losing battle and that trying to deal with the Iowa DNR is like trying to climb Mt Everest in shorts, t-shirt and sandals. I have gone to MI meetings, bought raffle tickets, called the State DNR about things that I think need to be done (increasing size limits, more stocking programs in our State, etc.) all w/out being a member. Why spend the money and send it off to who knows where only to see the fisheries around me be abused. Seems kind of pointless. I have talked to MI members about issues and they act like there is nothing that can be done. So I can pay the membership fee to go sit at meetings (that are 2 hrs away) or I can use that money to support this addiction that I found last year. If there was a way I could see where that money was going, and know that I was making an impact I would be all for it. I know there is an Eastern Iowa Muskie Alliance, anyone up for starting a Western Iowa Muskie Alliance? |
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| EA and John: I don't think its fair to assume that people are only looking out for themselves. That's kind of a jaded view. Perhaps its true on a macro level, but I don't believe that muskies inc needs support on the macro level to be effective. History seems to show that a relative few can accomplish very much. But think of how much more could be accomplished with greater membership and involvement....I believe that there are plenty of new anglers to the sport who are on the fence, or even unaware of the virtues of Muskies Inc, and these people could be persuaded with the right message. The sport has grown exponentially in recent times. Has Muskies Inc also experienced the same level of growth? I don't know the answer to that question. If not, there are some serious questions that need to be asked. If so, the follow-up question is "how can we grow even more?"....
It's true that not everyone needs to be a muskies inc member in order to be involved in and contribute to the resource. That's a fair point. But a club is a pretty good organizational tool to create awareness to the imporant issues and then to mobilize action....it's likely THE MOST effective means to get 'er done, so to speak. Therefore, with the issues and potential problems looming, as Treats points out in the original post, an effective and concerted effort by the club would likely go the furthest...
The conclusion of Longcast_jackpot's post is the kind positive message that needs to be at the forefront of the club's message. Perhaps it's always has been, and the earlier posts to this thread were borne of frustration since that message doesn't seem to be working. No one said it's supposed to be easy. Refining your "call to action" message and recruiting techniques is something that good organizations will constantly be striving to improve on. In the end, I think energy, ethusiasm, and a positive, welcoming message will bring the best results.
John, pointing out "the reality of the situation" as you see it doesn't really accomplish much, does it? Maybe you're just trying to vent. That's understandable...I can empathize with that. But what are you going to do about it? Stop being "cordial" to the "selfish" anglers, as you said in your original post? What's that going to accomplish? |
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I've never stopped being cordial to anyone. I sit and talk with the local guys all the time. They just know that I'm not going to "spill the beans" on any hot bites anymore unless they join our club. I fish with a lot of these guys too.
Again, I'm not sure why you're implying rude or condescending behavior on my part, that's not the case at all.
Js
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As far as pointing out realities, the "charges" or claims of why people won't join MI have been pointed out.
I'm just replying to the subject as it's evolved in this thread.
Don't confuse that with how I potray myself or my ideas to people on a regular basis.
Is pointing out "the realities" as I see them effective?
Well that depends on the audience. I think on this forum it is good to have these differing points of view thrown out there.
JS
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| john skarie - 6/24/2008 11:25 AM
Lambeau if the answer was that simple than every muskie fishermen in the midwest would already be a member of MI.
The reality of the situation is people find it much easier to come up with excuses why they don't need to be involved than care about the reasons why they should be.
JS
So here are the core issues as we see them, right?
1. People don't care
2. People are lazy
3. People aren't willing to act if they have nothing to gain
So we need to feed their egos a bit, make them feel important, and show them how their contribution benefits them? Lambeau, you're a shrink. How do you make something that requires time, money, and effort appeal to someone who is inherently selfish?
"Muskies Inc., It's all about you!!" ????
Maybe we are being a bit jaded, and that people just don't understand the benefit, as mentioned above. Perhaps we need to be more clear on WHY people would want to join?
Edited by esoxaddict 6/24/2008 12:33 PM
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| John:
Sorry that I misunderstood you. From what I read, you identified a certain group of anglers who you described as 'definitely spoiled", "selfish" and "thankless", and said that you "used to be cordial" with them, but not anymore. I didn't say that you were rude, but rather that your post might sound that way. You've clarified, and I apologize for the misunderstanding.
Edited by Matt DeVos 6/24/2008 12:41 PM
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| Lambeau if the answer was that simple than every muskie fishermen in the midwest would already be a member of MI.
The reality of the situation is people find it much easier to come up with excuses why they don't need to be involved than care about the reasons why they should be.
well, there's two ways to look at the question of people's level of involvement in clubs or in supporting issues through emails, donations, etc.
1) the problem is with them: they're coming up with excuses, they're lazy, etc.
2) the problem is with us: we haven't effectively motivated them to get involved in things, we haven't done a good enough job to inspire them to action. (not that we haven't tried, just that we've been ineffective.)
if you believe the first perspective, then it's hopeless because it's characterological and nothing can be done to change those traits in people.
i prefer the second perspective, and social research as well as success by organizations who do it right shows this to be true. it's hard to accept this, but doing so is a first step towards doing things differently and being more effective. before deciding what we "know" to be true, looking around at how others who are successful do it is a good idea.
So here are the core issues as we see them, right?
1. People don't care
2. People are lazy
3. People aren't willing to act if they have nothing to gain
NO! those are false premises that will lead us to dead ends.
people DO care.
people ARE willing to work hard.
people ARE willing to act to make change.
if we want to access people's time and talents, we need to start by believing in their capacity to get involved, not by calling them lazy or uncaring!
How do you make something that requires time, money, and effort appeal to someone who is inherently selfish?
look at the "MS Walks" or the "AIDS Rides"...these are issues that directly touch very few people, but tons of people show up every year to raise money and get involved. how do these organizations accomplish that?
we're talking about issues that do directly impact our targeted audience. how might we accomplish it?
could the same techniques be useful?
to be effective, define it as a marketing and communication issue rather than a problem with your target audience...
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| Great post, Mike. Very well said. |
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My bad Matt; I did use the term "cordial"in my post.
Sorry about that, I can see where you coming from. I didn't represent my meaning very well there.
I should have just said I'm more tight lipped now when it comes to fishing info.
JS |
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Location: Roscoe IL | Note to self.
Do I just hope that the fishery will be the same or better for my kids?
What can I do to protect/improve the fishery for the futrue?
Do I care?
Can I do anything?
I read Treats post so fast the first time & responded so quick that I missed some things he was trying to get across..
I like Hookers comments about other clubs. I hear more complaints about MI & how the magazine is a waste of $. I happen to agree on that point, but what other clubs are out there trying to make things better?
Sell some screws dude! It's slow here!!!!!
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Location: Grinnell, Iowa | Very informative and interesting arguments on both sides.
All of this has got me thinking. I slay litterally hundreds of crappie slabs through the ice every winter that end up in my freezer and then in my belly; and yet I have never put forth a single ounce of effort towards preserving the crappie fisheries. I know it's not the same. Or is it????? |
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In all fairness, you don't have people spreading the word how people who participate in MS walks etc. are arrogant and elitist.
There is a ton of rhetoric out there being told to people who have never been involed in Muskies Inc. like that.
It's pretty easy to decide not to be involved before even trying it for yourself when you hear even a few opinions like that.
I think it would be pretty interesting to see how many people would send an e-mail for a chance at winning a DBL Cowgirl as compared to how many sent in opinions to the DNR this spring when asked to.
That may prove the lazy point a little?
JS
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| That's exactly what I was getting at, Mike. As I said in my post above - those are the problems "AS WE SEE THEM", and perhaps the REAL problem is that people just don't understand WHY they would want to join. That's on US as members for not communicating effectively what muskies inc. is all about. The bowling shirt comment, the comment from the poster who said all he hears is about the roadblocks to getting things done, And the comments of those who DO join who often feel like their efforts and money will be wasted...
We like to THINK it's because people don't WANT to do anything, but isn't it really more that they don't know what to do, why they should do it, or what it's going to accomplish???
Maybe it's the way Muskies inc markets itself, and the way the membership represents the organization. In short, it's not THEM, it's US, isn't it? You can't blame someone for being apathetic to your cause when they aren't sure what it is or if they can make a difference.
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| john skarie - 6/24/2008 2:17 PM
In all fairness, you don't have people spreading the word how people who participate in MS walks etc. are arrogant and elitist.
There is a ton of rhetoric out there being told to people who have never been involed in Muskies Inc. like that.
It's pretty easy to decide not to be involved before even trying it for yourself when you hear even a few opinions like that.
I think it would be pretty interesting to see how many people would send an e-mail for a chance at winning a DBL Cowgirl as compared to how many sent in opinions to the DNR this spring when asked to.
That may prove the lazy point a little?
JS
Ack, I agree with Skarie again...
Well, except the lazy part. I believe that example speaks more to the "what do I get for my efforts" mentality. And that's where muskies inc. could do better in recruitment of new membership and getting people more involved -- why do I want to be a part of this? Why do I want to send that check or go to that banquet, or fish that fundraiser?? When the benefits aren't clearly outlined, when people don't feel like they are important, like they can make a difference, or they just don't plain know why they would WANT to do something, you aren't going to get them to do it. The MS walks are actually a decent example -- its work and time, but people know what MS is. They know what it can do, they know that what they are doing can help the medical community treat and maybe even cure people in the future. It's a sacrafice people are willing to make because they believe they are doing some good, and that their efforts aren't being wasted.
Not that you can make a direct comparison to muskie fishing, but it brings up a valid point -- people in and outside of muskies inc just don't feel the results are worth the effort. And when that effort can be little more that a few bucks here and there and a few hours of your time once a month, and people STILL don't want to do it? There's something wrong. |
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| Jerry Lewis!
That's the answer to MI's problems, they just need to hire him and have a telethon or someother celebrity... might be a good one for Alec Baldwin.
Mitta Wooley... Mitta Wooley!
:-O |
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There seems to be a lot of assumption the people aren't inolved because of reasons outside of their own "apathy" toward the cause.
Yet nobody can prove that if MI were the "perfect" club we'd have tons of members.
In the case of people participating in MS walks etc., what is the percentage of the population that does this?
In other words, the muskie fishermen population is relatively small. Is the percentage of people involved in "charity" type activities or groups a lot more in the general public or about the same as the percent involved in the muskie community?
As great as a cause as these other things are, they don't draw a majority of the population to thier cause.
I don't think the problem is that people don't know why they should be involved, or don't have a good avenue to do so.
JS |
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