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Posts: 72
| I think the summer of 2008 we are going to see 1000's of fishing guide throw in the towel. I've already talked to several well known guide all over the country who say business is down 75-80% and the phones are not ringing. It's hit the hunting guides worse. |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Sorno,
I couldn't charge you a nickel. It would just be wrong. And then I'd have to pay you when I got out to Utah, and I can't afford your rates. |
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| "Mike,
The difference is basically in the product offered.
A carpenter builds a deck, and has no desire to educate or entertain. A plumber fixes my pipes, most days I don't even want to talk to the person and the feeling I'm sure is mutual. I hire an outfitter or guide, and I'm expecting to be 'made comfortable', be educated, entertained, and catch some fish in the process; I want the guy to take me to his favorite eating establishment for lunch and enjoy that time as well, and I expect I'll be treated as a valued client throughout the day.
A guide is a social director, educator, story teller, comedian, cheerleader, and above all entertainer. We tip folks like that because we 'grade' the performance given, and base the tip on that grade. Social thing, it doesn't have to make sense when compared to a contractor.
If the guy building your deck stopped working and asked you to come on over to his rig and learn the fine points of hammer selection for the job, told you 4 jokes in the process, and showed you his entire tool box describing the use of each item contained, you'd think he'd lost his marbles. If Dave Dorazio asked me, however, to look into his tacklebox, and described the use of why and when of each lure therein for July on the Chip...."
Your right Steve, different product, but shouldnt change tipping. When that plumber leaves your home you have a tangible product he has left you with...say the ability to flush your toilet instead of having the bowl fill up with s**t! The contactor has left you with a roof over your head etc etc etc
A guide's service is intangible in a way. You are "buying" an education be it for a given species of fish, a given body of water etc. THATS WHAT A PERSON IS PAYING FOR!!! Telling them about lure selection, what rods to use, structure to be fished etc.
So in that light comparing them really isnt all that far off.
Or maybe the more fair analogy then would be, do you tip your childrens school teachers??? If you sign up for a class at a community education type place do you tip the instructor after the last session?
It's my opinion the whole tipping custom with guides comes from the days when the majority of them were hired out through lodges/resorts. The lodge set the rate and paid the guide a wage out of that rate. They were basically employees of hte lodges that booked their trips. Much different situation than a self employed guide with the ability to set their own rates.
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Posts: 910
Location: Hastings, mn, 55033 | "A carpenter builds a deck, and has no desire to educate or entertain. A plumber fixes my pipes, most days I don't even want to talk to the person and the feeling I'm sure is mutual. I hire an outfitter or guide, and I'm expecting to be 'made comfortable', be educated, entertained, and catch some fish in the process; I want the guy to take me to his favorite eating establishment for lunch and enjoy that time as well, and I expect I'll be treated as a valued client throughout the day."
Being in the trades, I cant tell you how much time I have wasted sitting and talking with homeowners and answering all their questions about why I am doing what I'm doing, how it's done and on and on. How many times I've had homeowners sit and watch every last thing I did, ask about what tools were needed to do the work, even had more than a few comment that after watching me they wouldn't need to hire the work done in the future.
Never once have I gotten a tip, not even to make up for the down time and lost productivity suffered from talking with and explaining things to homeowners. Anyone who wants to say a self employed contractor doesn't spend a good amount of time dealing with some of the very same things has never worked in that field! |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Castmaster,
Answering both your posts above:
'Never once have I gotten a tip, not even to make up for the down time and lost productivity suffered from talking with and explaining things to homeowners. Anyone who wants to say a self employed contractor doesn't spend a good amount of time dealing with some of the very same things has never worked in that field!'
I have worked in that field. Roofing, and building trusses, and some labor work when I was younger. Also was a Landscape construction foreman. Never got a tip, and didn't expect to. Never spent 8 to 10 hours a day in-close with my client at those jobs either and I sure didn't expect them to pick up a hammer and join in. The contact between clients in a boat and on a jobsite just isn't the same; the service contracted for is completely different.
I didn't say contractors don't talk to homeowners, I said they don't WANT to most times. If you don't see what a Guide does all day as different from fixing a drain pipe or building a deck or re-roofing a home, that's fine. I've done both for quite a few years I thought I'd share some perspective.
I feel you don't get tips as a contractor because you provide a service that isn't 'social', as I tried to describe above. If that's a bad deal, so be it, I don't get a tip when I sell an advertising contract or durable good, either. So what? That has nothing to do with Guiding.
You don't think a Guide deserves a tip....great! Don't pay one, and if you hired me, as I have said a couple times, I don't expect one. I've tipped contractors who did better than expected work on my place, probably because I've been in the position to know how good that feels to give, and to get. Point is, it's accepted practice to tip a service professional, which a Guide IS, and some will tip, others won't. Nothing wrong with either, IMHO. |
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Posts: 1504
Location: Oregon | I always tip a guide if he tries hard to put me on fish. As for the drop in business, lets face it, fishing is a "luxury" and with the way the cost of food, fuel, medical expenses, etc., have gone up in the last few years, something has to give.
RM |
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Posts: 547
Location: Oshkosh | 25 bucks for a contractor is a very good rate. Most trades jobs and auto mechanics charge out around 60 bucks an hour. I would never expect to get a tip after changing out a furnace or air conditioner in a persons house, because I am not teaching that person how to do my job. As I said I believe in tiping a guide, but if he would just stand in the back of the boat and not say anything, he sure wouldnt get a tip. I hire a guide to teach and educate on how he fishes, or how to fish a spacific lake, and he does what I expect, he should be rewarded. Just my thoughts.
Peter |
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Posts: 1270
| To play Devils advocate for those of you saying that it is reasonable for a guide to tack on a fuel surcharge because of rising gas prices would you also expect a refund if you book a trip this year for next year and the gas prices go down? |
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| You might actually see that in many industries next year if gas prices do go down. They will not lower prices to what they were before, but service industries such as airlines probably will have some type of rebate if prices do come down... |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I just raised my base price. If the cost of fuel comes down, I'll drop my base price back accoridngly. If I book a day in advance, I usually take a 15% deposit, not the entire amount. |
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Posts: 56
Location: Appleton, WI | As business people, I would imagine that the basic fee for guiding is to cover all costs involved. Plus, some profit, of course. So, if you feel that you have received exceptional service, than do tip the person!
Conversly, if you have a poor experience, withhold that tip.
I like Steve's attitude that he does not expect it. That is someone who is true to the sport and educating others.
Happy fishing!
Lori |
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Posts: 578
Location: Sheboygan Falls, WI | .
Edited by C_Nelson 6/7/2008 8:31 AM
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| Ive been on a couple trips on Lake St Clair trolling we did very good one trip and only one fish the second time and i have to say the mate does alot of work cleaning weeds of the lines and changing the lures and i feel that the mate at least deserves a 10 % min. regardless if you do well or not. I cant speak for all the charter guys out on LSC but my two trips were with different charters and both of the mates worked thier tails off trying to put fish in the boat. On one trip we took it was rough out and the mate even stood behind my 75 yr old dad and and pretty much held him up while he reeled in his fish. I dont know how much a first mate gets paid for a trip but it cant be that much and i would have to beleive that hes working mostly for a tip. I tipped both those mates way over 10% as it was well deserved |
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Posts: 910
Location: Hastings, mn, 55033 | "Tip, don't tip. If you choose to not tip, just don't book that same guide again. You may not be pleased by the results next time."
It's kind of amusing to read the replies from the guides and then the non guides. Guys like EsoxAddict, with their inside scoop from their guide friends, seem to say that a guide will give a less than full effort if he isnt tipped, while the guides all say the effort is the same either way. Which is it???
Steve,
I apologize for my first post being as guest. I hadnt realized I wasnt signed in until after I posted, and forgot to add to my second post the previous one was mine as well.
I do agree that it isnt an exactly equal comparison between a self employed guide and a self employed tradesman, but IMHO it is a much closer analogy than to a waiter/waitress or bartender who is working for a wage of $2-$4 an hour in a lot of cases. I do get your "social" aspect to it and you might be right to a degree with that. I also think maybe it has a bit to do with the fact a guided fishing trip is a form of recreation while getting your roof fixed or leaky pipes fixed isnt a fun experience for most! People are a little looser when spending $$ on fun than on things they'd rather not spend $$ on. |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Castmaster,
I agree. I think most of the replies from Guides state reality...they need bookings, charge what they think is fair, and don't necessarily expect a tip. They appreciate those tips they do get, and if human nature is what it is, may work a bit harder the next time for that client to duly impress and 'pay it forward'. |
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Posts: 691
Location: nationwide | I don't understand this. . . .
"Tip, don't tip. If you choose to not tip, just don't book that same guide again. You may not be pleased by the results next time."
Are guides saying if I book them this summer and do not tip them not to book them next year because the service will not be of the same quality? I am buy no means even a part time guide, but when I do it does not matter if the people tipped me the last time or not, or have booked me for years and never tipped me, I am going to bust my butt to put them on fish every time.
I am hoping the guides on this board do not agree with the original statement. If so that is pretty sad.
Corey Meyer |
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Posts: 8781
| Cory, I don't think its that they will do a BAD job next time, just that they will be much more likely to go the extra mile if you do tip them. Are you saying that if you had a client that regularly tips you say $50, that you wouldn't try to take care of them a little better than the average client? Maybe give them an extra hour or two next time?? |
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Posts: 1996
Location: Pelican Lake/Three Lakes Chain | I think the whole tipping thing is being blown way out of proportion. Once again... I don't expect them, but when received, they are greatly appreciated.
As far as a non-tipper not getting my 100%, that is just plain ludicrous. Every client I book gets a total and complete effort from me. From everyone else's comments on here you make it sound like guides have a wealth of prospective clients to pick and chose from. That is not the way it works. In today's world it seems as if everyone that fishes is a guide and the guides are about to outnumber the clients. Giving less than a total effort and having "bad word of mouth" spreading about me and my guide business is not an option. Guide businesses are built on word of mouth, and nothing can kill it faster than having my name associated with poor service. I would rather not get a tip and have someone talk about what a great time they had in my boat than get a nominal tip and "bad press" if you will.
Again, tip if you want to, it will be appreciated, but if you don't I will not think less of you as a person or a client.
Edited by nwild 5/23/2008 11:17 AM
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Posts: 691
Location: nationwide | I will fish clients the same way regardless of tips or no tips and most tell me when the day is over, not the other way around. Like I said though, I am not full time, which would make a difference. If I have something or somewhere I need to be I have to quit, and the client knows this prior to our trip, if not I fish. I have guided with groups of other guides that split the day, fish from 8 until noon, have lunch and meet us back for the 5-9 shift. I tell my guys if they want a break that's fine but I am going fishing anyways so if they want to fish the afternoon and then the evening that works too. I have even taken out other guides clients of the same group in the afternoon because my guys did not want to go. My charge???? Give me some money for gas and buy me a drink afterwards and we'll call it even.
The regular clients I have had for years book me for that reason, you want to start at 5:00 in the morning and fish until 11:00 that evening, no problem, and I count it as one day, not a day and a half. Most of the full time guides on the flowage start at 8:00 a.m., I am always trying to talk my clients into starting at least an hour early to hit active spots before the rest of the guides get out. Sorry for the ramble and back to the topic. Tipping has no bearing on how I fish or what I will do for the client - period.
Corey Meyer |
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Posts: 691
Location: nationwide | Yea, what Norm said!!!!!!!!!! Well put Norm.
Corey Meyer |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Norm said it better than I. |
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Posts: 578
Location: Sheboygan Falls, WI | .
Edited by C_Nelson 6/7/2008 8:32 AM
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Posts: 2691
Location: Pewaukee, Wisconsin | Well said Norm.
The thought of guides doing less for clients that didn't tip is nuts.
But the reality of a good tipping client is: Guides will go extra hours, maybe give the hot bait to the client at days end, rebooking that client at prime times and plenty more perks is a given. That is just buisness. Treat everyone as good as you can and everything will work out just fine. Clients are happy and so are the guides.
I will always give every thing I can for my clients. Word of mouth keeps my guide service growing every year. Guide prices do not matter to clients when they can book a guide they trust and can't wait to fish with each time they can. I just had to raise my prices this season to keep up with the costs. Most clients tip very well, some maybe just a small amount, but very few do not tip. I would bet the ones that don't tip don't realize it is normally done. Like contractors and car repair. I tip everyone who I feel worked extra hard for me, even contractors, garbage men, truck and car repair people, etc.
A tip is just a way to let the person know who much you appreciated the service you got from them.
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Posts: 72
| The guide that goes above and beyond will always have a strong client base. And these types of guides will survive even when times get tough. Nothing hurts a guide more than a client making negative comments. Word of mouth is the best advertising when it comes to a guide. |
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Posts: 311
Location: Ontario | We carry an average of $140k in baits and rods every trip and can't afford to drop $30 or $40 extra on a guide after the day if he does a good job?! I must be missing something.
Worst tipper I have ever had in my boat was a doctor and lawyer combo. I kid you not. The tip was $0 after doing what I always do, going above and beyond all day. Best tippers I ever had? Iowa corn farmers, Chicago beat cops, Minnesota used car salesman, and small electrical contractor from Michigan. I remember each very well, and it had nothing to do with money. Great guys. |
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| I read reelman's 1st post and somewhat disagreed............but the more I thought about it, the more he makes sense. Most guides stick that cash right in their pocket, that's why most don't take credit cards.
Brad and I own a restaurant and there have been times when we first opened that both of us had to bartend at one time or another. I NEVER kept a tip for myself.....it went into the bucket and was split between the rest of the staff.
There has also been many many times when customers have tried to buy me a drink........99% of the time I do not accept and thank them. I tell them to please not spend their money on me because I do not pay for my drinks or food as it is......those are the perks of being an owner.
I guess what I'm saying is that, as an owner in a "tipping" business, I do not accept tips, nor do I expect them. Getting their business is my reward, and I know that our customers notice and appreciate the fact that we do accept their money in the form of a tip or a drink.
That being said, I was in Naples, FL last month and we did a 4 hour backwaters charter. We did horrible.............caught a handful of very small snapper and one small grouper. The guide did his very best and taught us a lot about how tide affects the fishing. He moved around a lot trying to find moving water and he worked his butt off. On a $350 trip, I tipped him $100........ he was a captain for the fishing outfit and was not an owner.  |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | What if the Guide business is a sole proprietorship, as most are? I'd say it's still up to the customer, as Norm said so very well. |
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Posts: 72
| Question for the muskie guides on the forum. If a client is using your gear and looses a lure. Do you require the client to pay for the lost lure?
I've had some say yes and other say no. Thanks in advance. |
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Posts: 335
Location: Orland Park | Tips are taxable.....and I don't know what it's like up north, but it sucks to go thru an audit down here.
If a guide counts on his tips and expects a certain $ amount as a tip, then include that $ amount in the price of the trip and specify "TIPS NOT ACCEPTED" when advertised. That way, rumors don't spread, nobody will accuse anyone of not fishing hard enough or fishing the good spots, there's no confusion by the customer as to how much to tip, no hard feelings, the IRS won't crawl up your wazoo, and threads like this don't get started.
Thanks for coming! You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here! |
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Posts: 1270
| "We carry an average of $140k in baits and rods every trip" Who carries $140,000 worth of bait and rods on a trip? Who even ownes $140,000 worth of baits and rods? |
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