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| More fish are being caught today than 20 years ago. More larger fish are being caught today than 20 years ago. A higher percentage are being released today than 20 years ago. So, that tells me that people have been educated on catch and release.
So, what is the problem with trolling where people think more fish are going to be caught? Do you really think that a person is going to start keeping big fish NOW because they can troll? I don't think so.
What is boils down to is what was stated in a post above. "Generally those that lack knowlege in something are the most affraid of it or the strongest against it."
As far as a "season" goes, why not have a season after Labor Day when the tourist season is over? Musky anglers hit the water hard in the fall searching for the "big one". Those anglers are also the most educated on catch and release. Afraid of guides keeping fish for their clients? Look at how many guides are strictly catch and release with NO fish kept in their boat.
Some may say "trolling is not fishing". Well, I beg to differ. Slamr makes perfect points as to the difficulty of successful trolling. It is not just throwing baits behind the boat and going. Do YOU know how far back you have to let 65lb braid out to get a Depth Raider down 15'? Do you know how to maneuver your boat in tight corners?
Some may say "trolling is boring". Well, I think that casting all day without seeing a fish is boring too. Why should I not be able to change things up a bit and take a break and mentally unwind and troll for an hour or so. What is boring about a rod doubling over, the board flying back and the drag scream and a big (or small) fish come sky rocketing out of the water? Don't tell me that it takes the fight out of the fish because a musky is not known to be a notorious fighter.
You know me. |
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Posts: 157
Location: Wausau/Phillips WI | I'd change my mind on allowing trolling if we'd change the deer season to open on Nov. 15th each year like Michigan.
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| This is laughable. Clearly those oposing trolling on this thread don't know much about trolling therefore it must be just awful for the fish and the fishery and all the poor people who want to enjoy the lake. All the WI oposition to trolling isn't much different than the the MN oposition to sucker fishing. Both have missunderstandings about the other but neither wants to learn how it could be another effective method of fishing they may learn to enjoy. Perhaps since trolling and sucker fishing are so awful we should just take the hooks off our baits and enjoy that we were able to get the fish to strike because we certainly don't want to hurt the poor fishy by slamming hooks into its face and taking its picture? |
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Posts: 1289
Location: WI | Instead of a statewide 45" size limit, limit it to one fish per year with a tag like deer hunting. Not a new idea at all. |
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Location: Lake Tomahawk, WI | Chuck,
I understand the logic behind having a fall-only trolling season, but still don't think it makes sense. I know the idea is to avoid boating/use conflicts, and appease the boating crowd, but really they won't be the ones voting at the CC hearings. It wasn't pontoon boaters and jet-skiers who voted down higher size limit proposals, it was muskie fishermen. So I guess I still don't understand why not allowing trolling in the summer would help get it legalized. In fact, I would bet summer-only trolling would pass before fall-only trolling.
Kahler, yeah the stamp idea has been bounced around. I kind of like it, as I thought a protected slot might fly. Tough to get things like that through. I also was thinking of a trolling stamp, that carried a 50" size limit statewide for any muskie caught trolling.
It's all been beat to death, hopefully some level heads will prevail and we will be able to utilize multiple techniques in our pursuit of these great fish. I'm out, heading to the Big Belts and chase mulies for a week. Thank for listening to my well thought out, well constructed, senseless rants.
JS  |
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Posts: 734
Location: Watertown, MN | I would love to see trolling back in WI, but I would definitely put but strict laws into place
1-Minimum size of water at least 1500 acres, any smaller lake caster can cover the water by traditional means, this would put trolling back into play on the big water with ciscoes and open water fish on these waters. You can legally troll LCO, Grindstone and other Saywer cty water, and I don't see everyone flocking to these waters for trolliing or destroying these fisheries.
2-Limit the lines to 1 per person, or 2 per person 4 max per boat, this would prevent what happend on Twin, 4 people to boat 12 lines.
Troyz
Edited by Troyz. 11/2/2007 9:11 AM
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Posts: 189
Location: Barrington, Il | Slamr,
You took the words right out of my mouth. |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | this is a fun ... er, uh ... good read. implied understanding and ownership are my two favorite subjects ...
driving a boat on a gps gridline path ... "fish on!!!"
row, row, row your boat ... trolling is legal now ...
trolling pewaukee or okauchee is a far cry from trolling the typical northwoods lake ... i did say "typical" ...
this post ought to bring a little more banter to the discussion .... or not.
i'm totally against trolling outside of the current regulations ... there are plenty of places to do it already. it will bring more to the waters of n. wi., it will make fish and easier target, it will catch fish at higher speeds and kill more than with prior regulations, it will dummy down the fishing (in the example of the smaller lakes of n. wi.), it will cause more disruption cutting people off and getting in the way of or vice-versa with the recreational boaters ... and on and on and on ...
we could always just put a bucket of corn down, shoot the deer and feel like the accomplished hunter too eh?
but, then i really don't have an opinion on the subject ...
just drive to st. clair ... i hear it has amazing fish catching opportunities, and is basically the same distance from chicago as n. wi. is, and not many people go there just to troll ...
but, like all good things ... they usually change ... |
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Posts: 32890
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I'd like the opportunity to troll some of the lakes up here. I voted for trolling legal, but on larger lakes. Ask Mike Keopp if he's 'dumbed down' when he's trolling. No data whatsoever indicating trolling kills more muskies than casting, either, and why is that OK for the fish rowing but not OK if under power?
Like I said, this issue has little or nothing to do with the fish and everything to do with social water use issues.
What does deer baiting have to do with this? Is it OK to hunt deer in a harvested corn field and feel like an accomplished hunter? How about a 1/4 acre clearing planted with 'out of the box' deer oriented plants? How about a potato field?
Always if the argument is based on social mores, it's something else we need to argue about...
'Look over THERE!!!'
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| jonnysled - 11/2/2007 8:05 PM
this is a fun ... er, uh ... good read. implied understanding and ownership are my two favorite subjects ...
driving a boat on a gps gridline path ... "fish on!!!"
--do you even know how to set up a gps PLOTTED course (not gridline path)?
row, row, row your boat ... trolling is legal now ...
--why is row trolling any better than regular trolling?
trolling pewaukee or okauchee is a far cry from trolling the typical northwoods lake ... i did say "typical" ...
--yeppers, not as big and generally more structure up north.
this post ought to bring a little more banter to the discussion .... or not.
i'm totally against trolling outside of the current regulations ... there are plenty of places to do it already. it will bring more to the waters of n. wi., it will make fish and easier target, it will catch fish at higher speeds and kill more than with prior regulations, it will dummy down the fishing (in the example of the smaller lakes of n. wi.), it will cause more disruption cutting people off and getting in the way of or vice-versa with the recreational boaters ... and on and on and on ...
--clearly you know NOTHING and it is repeated NOTHING about what goes into successful trolling. That is VERY obvious by your comments and take on things. Afraid of the unknown. So, more fish WILL die on St Clair, Georgian Bay, all Canadian lakes, all Minnesota lakes, Green Bay, some northwest Wisconsin lakes, southern Wisconsin lakes, Michigan lakes, Indiana lakes, Illinois lakes, Kentucky lakes, Utah Lakes? I guess that the guys that are trolling in all of these other areas are a bunch of DUMMIES then? So, all of you guides that John wants to hire, remember this, according to him you are a bunch of DUMMIES when you troll. Why would trolling on smaller lakes be different than larger lakes? It is actually harder to troll in a smaller area.
we could always just put a bucket of corn down, shoot the deer and feel like the accomplished hunter too eh?
--they taste just as good being shot that way too.
but, then i really don't have an opinion on the subject ...
--you posted, you brought it up, so you must.
just drive to st. clair ... i hear it has amazing fish catching opportunities, and is basically the same distance from chicago as n. wi. is, and not many people go there just to troll ...
--so does northern Wisconsin, Green Bay and southern Wisconsin. What is your point?
but, like all good things ... they usually change ...
--yes they will. |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | pick the smaller lakes that have a max. depth of 30' with a single weed edge ... and tell me fishing isn't "dumbed down" trolling ... again, i said "typical" and expected the thought to be understood ... it would be quite different than pewaukee or okauchee (that was another point i thought would be understood) ... i think Mike Koepp would understand it ...
it's like using a golf cart on Augusta ... unless you are truly handicapped ... it breaks a very good tradition. if it changes it would be a shame and serve selfish needs and not sport.
barrel o' doughnuts, a bear and a bow ... is that what we want to happen to our sport on the northwoods lakes?
Edited by jonnysled 11/3/2007 9:09 AM
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Posts: 32890
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | That's your opinion, and I beg to differ. Trolling is no less complex and no easier than casting or position fishing live bait. Are we to regulate the fisheries based on 'tradition'? Hasn't worked so well in the past, if you think about it.
In case you missed it I voted for trolling on the larger lakes, but not based on what you are handing out. I suggested that to mollify social mores stalwarts.
What does bear hunting have to do with this? In case you are unplugged from that sport, you are TALKING about tradition when baiting bear. It's more sporting to run 'em up a tree with dogs? That also is a traditional method of harvesting a bear here. |
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| Just because you can troll a lake does NOT mean that trolling is the best method to fish that lake. Most musky anglers will be able to tell you what lakes would be good for trolling and what lakes would be very difficult or not worthwhile.
Also, why should row trolling be allowed on smaller lakes then?
A barrel, donughts, a bear and a bow. Great, now unless the guy KNOWS how to use the bow AND shoot it accurately, it will not make a difference how many bear are sitting eating doughnuts. Even if he knows how to shoot a bow and shoot accurately, he still has to have everything come together just right to be successful. Ask how many musky trollers are successful everytime out.
Quit while you can on this one. |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | i'm sure the outdoor "sporting" will continue to be built to support the weekender, so let's bait and troll so you don't have to work too hard ... shooting a doughnut stuffing bear with a bow at 20 or 30 yards or a deer over a bait pile .... yep, that's sport ... lol ... soon, maybe we'll be like texas and have feeders ... the herds are trained to hear the sound of stainless ... they come in and it's a yardage contest for a rifleman ... true sport ...
why not give the fish in the smaller lakes of n. wicso a chance and make it a game ... you know kind of like it is now and has been .... or, we could just spread lines and drive the boats around ...
this is ridiculous .... and you are right ... i should quit .... and will if the sport becomes nonsense which sometimes it seems to tend toward.
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Posts: 32890
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Traditionalists also said sonar would 'ruin' muskie fishing. then it was the trolling motor. then it was the GPS. That's plain not sporting or a challenge to take GPS coordinates from another angler and just go to the spot on the spot...and then use an electric motor and a sonar to stay on it, that's not sporting at all, some said. there was a strong effort for awhile to ban both the sonar and the electric motor.
Your 'nonsense' is another man's sport, Sled. I have the choice to hunt a baited stand or not, I have the choice to try to take a black bear without dogs or bait, but I don't have the choice whether I can troll up here. That may or may not change; either way I'm fine with it. I'd like to see it changed, and have explained my reasoning. If that's 'nonsense' to you then so be it, it sure isn't to me.
What you are saying is trolling is 'easy' and isn't sporting. You are not correct when one considers the details and skill level needed to be really good at it. And Chuck has an excellent point, I can think of many many lakes I wouldn't troll, they just are not layed well for the technique, or the fish are not accessible most of the year, or...there was a big fish caught on an area lake today that wouldn't have fallen to ANY trolling presentation. Neither would have the 7 caught by this guy and his boat partners over the last couple weeks.
I don't think trolling, wanting the ability to troll, or talking about either is ridiculous, really.
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | i'm differentiating amongst lakes ... there is a difference. if you are a handicapped sportsman, you should be provided some unique capabilities to approach the sport, otherwise we might as well go to a trout pond or have the birds released for us before we get there and then beat our chests for what we've accomplished. when does the line get drawn ... it should be at some point ...
there are bodies of water that make sense (and noted in this thread) ... it's got to stop somewhere though ... hopefully it will never get legs and won't go anywhere ... hopefully |
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Posts: 32890
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Sled....come on now. trolling is NOT that easy. Try it. |
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Posts: 2865
Location: Brookfield, WI | I like trolling. Really. I do. I wish I was out trolling right now.
I have been fortunate enough to troll with Joel, Koepp, Slamr, and Mike Phelps. The first three have a lot of experience with it, and I've been lucky enough to watch Mike as he learns to master those skills. His sticktoitiveness is really impressive.
I've done it the most with Joel, and the guy is an artist of the weed and break lines. He paints the edges with his baits. He might not realize it, but I pick up quite a bit from him when he explains the whys of the depths, types of baits, speed, etc. It has really made me realize the science of it.
Sled kind of makes it sound like you can chuck some baits over the side, start dragging, and then reel in the fish. That has not been my experience at all, limited as my experience might be. I think a lot of guys don't do it because of the difficulty involved with doing it well. That might actually be the real meaning behind many of the "I would rather cast, trolling is boring" statements. If you work as hard at it as I have seen these guys work, I really don't understand how it could be considered boring or less sporting. I also think those proficient at it are more likely to be very conscientious when it comes to handling and releasing fish.
The best part is sometimes these guys let me drive. I enjoy getting bossed around, and I feel useful as well as hopeful.  Some day I'd like to have Sorno boss me while we troll around out in Utah.
Slamr really is Ahab.
Kevin
Put 'er in the ol' vise. |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | trolling on certain waters ... yep, no doubt ... all the sport you want to have. trolling on smaller lakes up here ... it doesn't make sense ... and that my guess is the answer for why we have the regulations we currently have.
i grew up in minnesota and have a trolling background ... just don't like it around here on the waters i fish, never felt it was a needed or required tactic on the smaller lakes.
so, i'm not against it at all .... where it applies. the good thing about wisconsin's current regulations is the balance. all you have to do is drive to the bay or drive south and you can troll ...
trolling is easily abused ... seen it first-hand and hope not to see it up here ... |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | "limited as my experience might be" ... exactly
this one is a little more complicated ... and it doesn't apply just merely saying the science of trolling is justification ... steve, mike, joel and any other successful trollers knows that ... there is a valid argument based on the type of waters and you guys are well aware of that. going the route of adding a few lakes that might apply or to go the route that chuck suggests is "reasonable", but to just start trolling willy-nilly is not a smart thing to just turn the switch on in northern wisconsin. the current catch and keep, resorting, spearing etc... doesn't need any more pressure added to what's already a tough balance to keep.
we've seen individual bodies of water succumb to pressure ... and this would change a few lakes in a matter of just a few years.
somebody show specific information supporting how it won't ... otherwise, it simply is what it is ... |
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Posts: 32890
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Show me how it will Sled, you are the one with the burden of proof trolling will somehow 'harm' the larger lakes here; that's your position. I don't think that's fact and have seen nothing to the supporting your position anywhere.
And I agree, trolling is what it is; just another way to catch fish. |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | you missed it again steve .... read back. i did not say "large" lakes ... frankly, i'm shocked you've missed this in what i've written.
trolling in northern wisconsin as fast as the pre-spawn fishing ... quick, unfounded, unwarranted, knee-jerk changes that won't change anything ... you can sell some of the audience but not many from around here.
spearing is just another way to catch fish too, so is netting ... give me a break! ... WOW |
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Posts: 32890
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I SAID REPEATEDLY I VOTED FOR LARGER LAKES.....remember? I didn't miss anything. Now read your responses. And watch your language, please.
You say trolling is dumb and insinuate it's a talentless technique, you say it will hurt the fisheries, you insinuate we are trying to just approach this 'willy nilly'...none of that is fact. Don't bunch this in with what the legislature did on the early Muskie season, and DON'T try to insinuate that's something I'd support, I don't and never would.
What, spearing and trolling are comparable??? I bet quite a few folks here would find that insulting. I find that sort of insinuation counterproductive to a reasonable debate, which is why I keep responding here. I get it, you don't like the idea of trolling on the 'small' lakes in the North. Give me an argument that applies to that without all the sidebar stuff.
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | my responses were to the subject and not toward you steve ... until you singled my name out in your recent responses calling me out.
i won't drink the trolling kool-aide ...
if you pick the large lakes ... which ones?, who decides? how to they decide what is "large"? and how do you justify it?, and once it starts, where does it stop? ...
are the rules (pre-spawn, trolling) for the resource or for the fishermen and the business? ... i say a future with a pile of doughnuts in a pile put there for the weekender will change "hunting" and "fishing" sports to the detriment of the resource and need to be very carefully considered ...
here's a question ... fishing for big money on water that allows trolling ... what would you do? don't tell me it's rocket science and something that isn't "easier" to do ... cause i been there, done that and it plain and simple is not true and anyone out there knows it if they've done both much at all.
i'm sure it's all ok though ... |
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Posts: 32890
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Your responses were as they were, and I responded because of the content.
What size lakes? I suggested in an earlier thread over 500 acres. No idea what others might think, but I'm sure we will eventually find out. I'm sure I won't pick any lakes at all, not personally anyway. I bet you won't either, if this ever comes to a vote. I won't even begin to accept a fast track legislature LOOK OVER THERE attachment to any bill on this one, it should be up to us as sportsmen and our fine (despite your easy to take as not very nice reference) fisheries folks at the WIDNR. by the way, Sled, the WIDNR BANNED baiting for deer,not for the reasons you are selling, but because of CWD. The lawmakers in Madison reversed that ruling. Remember?? Pick on the right people, at least.
I'm not a weekender, and if I was, so what? Are you saying now you don't want those folks to fish in the North? That's a pretty considerable group of fellow Muskie anglers, isn't it? See how something like that can be interpreted?
Big money tournament? I'd follow the bite, and if it's jigging, I'd jig. If it's surface baits, I'd cast a Weagle or a Rumbler. If it's spinnerbaits in the slop, I'd cast then too. If it's an open water bite, I'd troll. That's exactly what is done in competition from what I see, and I work all of the open water season covering that sort of thing. I don't recall any events on the small lakes you are concerned about, so what difference does any of that make? |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | again steve ... i wasn't addressing you.
the "weekender" statement is aimed toward making the pinnacle of any sport "available" to the hobbyist. is that what it's about? or should these sports reward those who put in the work and the time as they typically have been throughout the years. economy drives legislation for sure, but it doesn't come without an expense to the purity of sport ... but, that it seems is what it becomes.
i think the north is unique ... and should remain so. it's the type of place where the game is played in a way that is rewarding, peaceful and enjoyable ... changing it is exactly that ... change. some things should stay the same because they are that good in their own way.
there are plenty of options for all of us to go troll big water if we like ... and i'd like to understand what the purpose for trolling more waters is ... so far in everything put on this thread the simple answer for that (other than self-servance) hasn't been answered.
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Posts: 32890
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I think the trolling ban in NWI is nothing more than pandering to traditionalists. I see trolling as a technique, and a difficult one to truly master.
I see the ridiculous 'position fishing' rule as a result of that pandering. I can't fish live bait at ALL (suckers on a quick strike) here without anchoring up unless I want to risk a ticket.
I see the anti-trolling rhetoric as emotional, not realistic or scientific. If we are to manage our Natural Resources by current emotional basis...wait, we DO to a large part.
I see Wisconsin as somewhat backward in this respect. We don't manage our fisheries by good science and biology entrusting that to the folks who are qualified as much as we should...instead we manage by popular demand, and that not by 'popular vote', but by vote at CC meetings, where only the highly motivated show up to speak, for the most part.
That's why we don't have a large group of 50" limit lakes up here. Same basic thing, Sled, just the 'other side' of the coin exerting influence that was largely emotional...
hope you see what I'm getting at. |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | my comment on the dnr being the dur ... has to do with them obviously being the "tail" of the dog in madison and not any disrespect to the agency (they get enough disrespect by their congressmen). when a business guy from Eagle River can have more influence over the fishery than it's management agency ... then it's time to scratch your head and wonder ...
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Posts: 32890
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Sled,
That's a fact. |
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Posts: 929
Location: Rhinelander. | I think the one line per angler and lake size requirement would be a must, Awhile back this was brought up and one angler stated he would troll the s--- out of a 200 acre lake. This is wrong. has to be a size resriction and maybe an hour restriction also to preserve the quiet for those that live on the lake.
Pfeiff |
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