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Posts: 412
Location: Waukesha, WI | I have to wonder just how long it took to find Formula X and the cost of research and development? The cost of tooling, press setup, maintenance etc for the baits that are mass produced. How many baits are made at one time. Need to run more? Sure, setup cost again. Oh, and time to clean the mold when it is done running. Sat on the shelf in storage too long; time to clean it again. What about baits that have inserts in them in the molding process. That might require a press operator full time. Even mass produced baits have costs that add up. |
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Posts: 32944
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I can tell you that the components are very expensive for the large 'bucktails'. The skirting is expensive, the blades are expensive, and the wire costs alot. SO?
'You guys make a ton on the lures' ..... it's simply not true. There are several steps on the wholesale to retail ladder, and everyone involved makes a margin, none of which are akin to an oil company. Keith's Violent Strikes, for example. It costs him about $7.00 in parts and labor at $10.00 an hour to build one of his large 'hobby' baits. How much should that lure sell for at the retail level?
If sold by the builder to the retailer, it will be discounted. That's the nature of the business. So the retailer buys it for $11.00 and sells it for $18.00. Any idea how many of those it takes to keep the lights on in a tackle store? Anything with less than a 40% margin shouldn't even be on the shelves. I guarantee you, an item like that wouldn't last in the big boxes at a smaller margin. That peg could be filled by a higher margin product. Watch the closeout bin at a Gander, you'll see what margins are really there.
What about the booths like Shack Attack who sell nothing at the shows? Pretty impressive commitment to the retailers there, I'd say.
So the builder goes to a show. They pay $350.00 for a booth, $265.00 for hotel, $150.00 for gas, and $125.00 for food. Should they sell to the public at wholesale or at a 'lower' price to generate more sales? If they did---
1) The retailers there would have a reason to toss that builder's lures back in the box.
2) The builder would have to sell 222 baits using the figures above to break even. WHY do that? May be a better idea to just let the retailers do the selling and stay home. No custom SHOW ONLY colors for me, that sucks. Don't forget, the builder puts in about 30 hours at the show, that time has value, right?
3) If the builder doesn't wholesale then they go to the shows to retail. WAY fewer pieces go out, and the builder collects the retail price. Let's say the builder sells 300 lures which would be really good-- WOW, they clear about $900.00 after taxes. If they do 4 shows, and are miraculously successful at working them all and selling 1200 baits, they make about $3600.00. I'd rather guide, no one complains about the paint or whatever not being 100% forever, and the day is spent on the water. There are worse places to work.
4) The idea that people will not pay what a lure should cost, so the builder should take less, CREATES THE NEED to look for someone else to build the lure for less money. What happens then? The same folks complaining about the lure price complain about the lure being built in China. You can't have it both ways.
5) Service costs money. Complaining about service you don't want to support or pay for is not going to get you anywhere, it's the demand for lower and lower prices that pushes service into the category most don't want to see. The Big Box stores are a shining example, Americans LOVE 'em. I for one hope the Muskie industry stays to the Smokies, Rollie and Helens, and Guides Choices of the world. At least those folks know what the heck a glider IS. I'm delighted to pay the price that quality and service commands, whatever that might be. If you are not, and you are in the majority in the future, when quality handmade Muskie lures and individual works of art become mass produced and sold at a Big Box with zero service to save you a couple bucks, holler about it while you are shaving, the guy you are looking at is the guy to blame.
Retail in the fishing business has been down for a few years. it's a symptom of a ton of economic factors, all of which add up to a tough market to begin with. The Muskie segment has exhibited growth despite all of this, which is a good thing. |
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Posts: 324
Location: Bloomington, Illinois | Amen, Mr, Worrall... 
matt |
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Posts: 1996
Location: Pelican Lake/Three Lakes Chain | I am in the process of weeding out some of the items in my box. I have been very well behaved at the shows so far this year with very few purchases. That being said, I have made a few aquisitions in the off season. I needed (yes dear, I NEEDED) to have a couple of the Baby Wabulls, the Rumbler was high on my list also, as were XX and XXX's. Altogether this offseason I have aquired about a dozen new baits.
My goal this season is to fish with only 200 baits in the boat. With the 12 newbies in the arsenal minus the 25 or so I parted with at the swap, I still need to cut approximately 200 baits from the boat. That is the main reason I am not a huge buyer at the shows.
Prices are what they are, I seriously doubt many are getting rich making baits, and I would rather they keep selling them so I don't have to make my own in the offseason ( I am sure that would cost me way over their prices). Could I have bought more baits, you bet I could have, and I often had a hard time restraining. Even though I wasn't there to reload the tackle box, I did have a blast socializing at the show I got to see friends and clients that I don't get to at any other time of the year.
Funny but true, I will bet I was the only guy at the Milwaukee show that bought more books at Barnes and Noble on the way home than he did baits at the show! |
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Posts: 7101
Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | "Funny but true, I will bet I was the only guy at the Milwaukee show that bought more books at Barnes and Noble on the way home than he did baits at the show!"
*do they not have BOOKS in Antigo? Or DID they have them, but so few people knew how to read them, that the town just got rid of them? |
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Posts: 1996
Location: Pelican Lake/Three Lakes Chain | Believe it or not, we do still have one book store here. We even have a Public Library. I just had to pick up some of those harder to find guys you don't see just anywhere.
Next time you come up here, are you going to camp? If you were going to I could pick you up the Beginners Camping Guide next time I am in a big city!
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Posts: 127
Location: NW burbs of Chicago | Jews don't camp, Norm. But thanks for the offer. Now, if you had a book on the cheapest places to stay in the area, then game on  |
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Posts: 8849
| Guys, what Steve said is worth reading until you understand all of it. And worth repeating until EVERYONE understands is this little gem:
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"... it's the demand for lower and lower prices that pushes service into the category most don't want to see. The Big Box stores are a shining example, Americans LOVE 'em. I for one hope the Muskie industry stays to the Smokies, Rollie and Helens, and Guides Choices of the world. At least those folks know what the heck a glider IS. I'm delighted to pay the price that quality and service commands, whatever that might be. If you are not, and you are in the majority in the future, when quality handmade Muskie lures and individual works of art become mass produced and sold at a Big Box with zero service to save you a couple bucks, holler about it while you are shaving, the guy you are looking at is the guy to blame. "
AMEN, Steve.
The difference between buying stuff from a big chain sporting goods store and any of the places Steve mentioned IS HUGE. I like knowing the guy who answers the phone. I like knowing that the guy I'm asking about a certain product knows WHAT THE $%%& IT IS. I don't want some pimply faced kid (no offense to pimply faced kids, I was one many moons ago) who has never been fishing before punching numbers into a computer to see if they have one when I call on the phone. I want the guys who fish with them. And if I can I want to buy my baits from the guy or the guys that make them. I want to buy my tackle from someone I can call and say "Hey, I caught a fish on your ___ today."
To tell the truth, if closed down forever I wouldn't miss it. But if Thorne's or Smokies or Rollie and Helens closed down? It would be a shame.
What would be a bigger shame is if Shumway quit making flashers, or Luke quit making Wabulls. |
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Posts: 476
Location: WI | Just a few random thoughts...... I attended both shows.
1.) I go to buy custom color baits (I have Smokey's in my backyard).
2.) I expect to pay money for a beer and that is figured into the total package, ($5 for parking on the other hand is ridiculous).
3.) There are more custom bait makers at Milwaukee in my opinion.
4.) Bait Builders SHOULD sell at retail and SHOULD sell "Show Colors", most muskie retailers have inadequate amount of baits of each vendor.
5.) Chicago is a "look to see what's new"/Milwaukee is "I'll buy it if I really want it" Spring is for "Now I gotta get me one".
6.) I voted for "Didn't see what I wanted", but I had a bait in mind and didn't want to shell out $32 bucks when I did see it.
7.) Llungen Lures had the best promo, get a free hat with a purchase of a bait.....And the hat wasn't a "domer" either.
8.) The big muskie retailers could save money on paying staff by sponsoring more participants in tournaments and having them work the shows.
9.) I spent more at Milwaukee than I did in Chicago.
10.) Muskie Fishing is not a poor man's sport.
GotOne
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Posts: 129
Location: Milwaukee Wi | Buy american !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I would rather sell more inexpensive baits!!!!!
Edited by Bayboo_baits 2/14/2007 5:24 PM
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Posts: 663
| GOTONE - 2/14/2007 5:15 PM
Just a few random thoughts...... I attended both shows.
1.) I go to buy custom color baits (I have Smokey's in my backyard).
2.) I expect to pay money for a beer and that is figured into the total package, ($5 for parking on the other hand is ridiculous).
3.) There are more custom bait makers at Milwaukee in my opinion.
4.) Bait Builders SHOULD sell at retail and SHOULD sell "Show Colors", most muskie retailers have inadequate amount of baits of each vendor.
5.) Chicago is a "look to see what's new"/Milwaukee is "I'll buy it if I really want it" Spring is for "Now I gotta get me one".
6.) I voted for "Didn't see what I wanted", but I had a bait in mind and didn't want to shell out $32 bucks when I did see it.
7.) Llungen Lures had the best promo, get a free hat with a purchase of a bait.....And the hat wasn't a "domer" either.
8.) The big muskie retailers could save money on paying staff by sponsoring more participants in tournaments and having them work the shows.
9.) I spent more at Milwaukee than I did in Chicago.
10.) Muskie Fishing is not a poor man's sport.
GotOne
Item 2: I have to agree that we all would rather not pay for parking but that is not the show promoters call. The State Fairgrounds determined that and yes, even exhibitors had to pay. Now consider this, I worked a show in Chicago a few weeks back and had to pay $18.00 per day to park (McCormick Place) and talk about food and drink prices, how about $7.00 for a slice of greasy pizza. Not sure what they were charging for beer or liquor but a Coke was $3.50 for a 12 oz. drink.
Item 4: I didn't get around to analyze my competitors but typically retailers bring as many baits as possible from each company that we exhbibited. Nobody can bring the entire contents of their store but certainly most of the time between three or four retailers you can find most everything you need. I'm curious to know what you couldn't find.
Item 6: Will you buy that $32.00 bait at another time or just take a pass on it altogether?
Item 7: Keith did a nice job and Llungen was very generous to give away as much as they did. Kudos
Item 8: I don't think so. You still have to have experienced staff who know how to and are able to put those booths together, merchandise and set up displays, know store service policies, handle transactions including credit card transactions, etc. No offense to tournament guys or "guest salesmen" but most of the time they want to hang out, talk about fishing, or sell their own particular favorite baits. After the show there is the tear down and packing. FYI most of the large retailers are still working three hours after the show has ended. Not complaining, just the facts of life. With a very few exceptions having non-staff people staffing a booth just doesn't work.
Item 9. Thank you!
Item 10: Yes and no. It is as expensive as we want it to be. I'm just like most everybody else and spend way more than I need to on baits, tackle, boats, travel, etc. but that's my choice. |
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Posts: 476
Location: WI | Item 2: I have to agree that we all would rather not pay for parking but that is not the show promoters call. The State Fairgrounds determined that and yes, even exhibitors had to pay. Now consider this, I worked a show in Chicago a few weeks back and had to pay $18.00 per day to park (McCormick Place) and talk about food and drink prices, how about $7.00 for a slice of greasy pizza. Not sure what they were charging for beer or liquor but a Coke was $3.50 for a 12 oz. drink.
Item 4: I didn't get around to analyze my competitors but typically retailers bring as many baits as possible from each company that we exhbibited. Nobody can bring the entire contents of their store but certainly most of the time between three or four retailers you can find most everything you need. I'm curious to know what you couldn't find.
Item 6: Will you buy that $32.00 bait at another time or just take a pass on it altogether?
Item 7: Keith did a nice job and Llungen was very generous to give away as much as they did. Kudos
Item 8: I don't think so. You still have to have experienced staff who know how to and are able to put those booths together, merchandise and set up displays, know store service policies, handle transactions including credit card transactions, etc. No offense to tournament guys or "guest salesmen" but most of the time they want to hang out, talk about fishing, or sell their own particular favorite baits. After the show there is the tear down and packing. FYI most of the large retailers are still working three hours after the show has ended. Not complaining, just the facts of life. With a very few exceptions having non-staff people staffing a booth just doesn't work.
Item 9. Thank you!
Item 10: Yes and no. It is as expensive as we want it to be. I'm just like most everybody else and spend way more than I need to on baits, tackle, boats, travel, etc. but that's my choice.
-----
Peter Stoltman
www.lastcastguideservice.com
Peter-
My thoughts regarding Item 4: I understand that many retailers have lots of manufacturers that they carry and have limited space. If I was a bait builder, however, and the retailers only had 3 or 4 of my baits (maybe more with different colors) and I had many more baits available, I too would want to promote my business and show all available products. If a particular retailer promoted my entire line, I wouldn't have to do this. I would think a retailer would want to have an "exclusive" show colors of a certain bait anyway.
I'm curiuous to see how you feel about bait builders and selling their products directly at the shows, (keep in mind that I am a salesman, work many trade shows, and am on the other end as a distributor competing against direct manufacturer business myself).
Item 6: I've been known to shell out $32 for a bait. I guess I would probably end up buying later towards the season if I still wanted too.
Item 8: Experienced staff to run the registers, yes. More "free" bodies working in the booth....wouldn't be a bad thing. "Free" bodies to help out with set up and tear down should be mandatory. I understand what its like to be there breaking down a booth after everyone else is gone too, its not fun being the last to leave when the only one left is the security guard. You have more experience at these shows than I do, my point was to help the bottom line, get some free help.
I'm quite content with the show(s), I think a little more marketing and promotion by the retailers could just make the show better. I'll still be there regardless.
GotOne
Edited by GOTONE 2/14/2007 10:25 PM
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Posts: 663
| Great question Dan. Of course we would rather not see our suppliers selling against us at the shows. The musky industry is a bit different than the "real world". Please let me explain. When one of our bait suppliers is at a show selling the same products that they ask us to stock it gives us very little incentive to give them booth space at a show. If we do bring those products we trust that they will not be selling at a lower price. I can tell you about one of the bait makers who was selling their lures at the show. We brought at least a couple of each of their products in each color we stock. We did not sell one bait made by that builder. Obviously that was a bad decision on our part. On the other hand their were several manufacturers who had their own booths at the show but did not sell to the public. Instead they referred customers to us and the other retailers who carry their product. We had to re-stock those sections repeatedly during the show. No question, I like this situation better. In the long run the manufacturer should like that too. He keeps the retailers happy who sell tons of product and then have to buy more from him. When a manufacturer sells directly to the public he makes one sale. When he sells to and supports a retailer there are potentially many more sales. It's a two way street. When a manufacturer supports us in that way it's to our benefit to help push their product not only at the show but also in the store. Now I understand some of the smaller builders who may be a one or two man operation feel they need to sell baits at the show to recoup their show costs. In that case we either do not bring those products or hope that the baits they are selling at the show are special custom or "show colors". We try hard to know what the case is with each manufacturer when we plan our show display. It doesn't always work out but in most cases it does.
Here's where the musky industry differs from the real world. In other industries if a manufacturer was selling against their dealers at a show those dealers would drop their product like a hot potato. I guess because we are a little more "mom and pop" oriented a certain amount of this selling is tolerated even if we don't like it. Some manufacturers obviously understand this relationship a little better. Drifter Tackle, Roberts Outdoors, Dunwright, Shimano, St. Croix, Fig Rigs, Pure Fishing (Abu-Garcia/Berkley) Shack Attack, and others did very well at our booth this weekend. Many of those have already or will shortly be getting re-stock orders from us. Others who sold their own products and cut into our sales won't be needing a re-stock order. I guess they are happier making whatever they did at the show rather than getting repeat orders from our store. That's not sour grapes it's just the facts.
In regard to the staffing thing. Yes, we usually have friends in any given city who will show up and put some time in at the booth or even help with set-up and tear down. Sometimes bait makers will spend time in our booth helping us to sell their products. Scott Kleinschmidt from Musky Safari did that in Milwaukee and sold a bunch of baits. That's great but it still doesn't allow us to decrease the amount of employees who are required to handle the start to finish duties that are needed at a show.
Not sure what you mean by more marketing and promotion by the retailers would help. Please explain or give me some suggestions. We are very interested in knowing what we can do to make the shows better.
Edited by Pete Stoltman 2/15/2007 1:09 AM
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Posts: 910
Location: Hastings, mn, 55033 | i'm kind of surprised there arent more votes for the economy. i've noticed the past year or so there are far more items for sale on ebay than in years past. also items seem to sell for less than they would have a few years back. same goes for the trader board on here. items that would have been snatched up as soon as they were posted a few years ago sit unsold now.
i know guys in the trades that have never been laid off before but they are now. a lot of guys i know are pretty worried about what the future holds.
folks just cant spend what they DONT have to spend. |
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| Muskie Treats - 2/13/2007 12:51 PM
"I don't care how much a booth costs. That's the price of advertising. How much does it cost to maintain a website for a year? Print up brochures, flyers, and business cards? It's a part of business, and should not be reflected in the cost of lures. Everyone has those expenses."
EVERY expense that any business incurs is reflected into the price of their product. At least that's how it works with businesses that want to stay in business.
My thoughts exactly on that subject. |
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Posts: 32944
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Expenses shouldn't be reflected in the cost of a product? They are. They have to be, to not reflect expenses is a sure method of going out of business. Can't have it both ways.
The idea is to try to make a profit or why do this? of COURSE advertising, promotional, material, overhead, labor, and other expenses will determine the cost of the product. The margin is added by dividing by the remainder of 100%. Let's say I want a 20% margin, I divide my costs by .8. The question was why folks are or are not buying at the SHOWS, so the SHOW COSTS are being discussed.
Here's an alternative. Make your own blanks by hand, build some molds, buy a roll of wire, a box of hooks, split rings, hardware, silicone skirting, blades, tools, paint, sanding materials, etc. Go to te basement bait forums and ask how to use all this stuff, and build your own.
Whenever costs rise and prices rise as a result, we hear accusations of excessive profits. Might be true in the case of Saudi oil, but not in the muskie lure trade. Ask yourself if you would take a reduction of 18% in wages at your job because expenses went up and the boss doesn't want to lose profits or raise prices.
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| What they need to do is drop the price of beer. |
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Posts: 2361
| Crash_McGolden - 2/14/2007 4:46 PM
Jews don't camp, Norm.
OK, the year is early. There will be some funny things said on this board. Sponge will come, and Sponge will go, and at times he will be drug free and lucid, but......this has got to be nominated for "line of the year" honors.
Drinking coffee and I just about choked to death! |
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Posts: 663
| Great replies Steve. I think a few guys may have gone out fishing the day that Economics 101 was held. |
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Posts: 419
Location: Appleton, WI | I normally don't get too worked up on politics of such things. But if you ask a question and ask for a reason to why people aren't buying. Why get a little defensive in what they are saying? Take a step back, listen to what is being said and figure out a way to remedy it. Seems like some folks are being quite honest and helpful for the possible reasons, but you're only going to stimy more responses by attacking back what they are saying.
Times have been changing and it definitely hasn't been for the better. It's going to continually change and it's going to impact how everyone does business. Whether it's determining how to sell more product, give better customer service, and have a job that you totally enjoy doing that's the job of the folks in the industry. But if some folks do give some corrective criticism give an open ear and weigh your options. I totally agree with Steve's posts he pretty much hit the nail on the head on that one.
catch ya later,
Krappie |
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Posts: 32944
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Hey, reality does sometimes suck, but it is what it is. No 'attack' intended. Some of the comments and sugestions have been quite good, and some have been very unrealistic. It's not always clear to everyone what drives the economy; prices, supply, demand, etc. |
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Posts: 485
Location: On my favorite lake! | It is probably a combination of things. 1) I know I had to cut back a little as far as what I could spend. 2)Everything is going up in price as far as outside the show. Leaving me a little less money. 3) The Milwaukee show did not have all the lures I wanted and Chicago sold out of some of them. I still bought but didn't spend my whole budget because I would rather wait and get what I want. 4) I attended both shows Chicago and Milwaukee as I am sure a lot of people did so the money got split some. 5)I think that with the bears in the superbowl it killed sunday in Chicago. Also the Milwaukee show on saturday was not as busy as I thought it would be. Less people = less dollars. I think they had another show in Rockford. Maybe that took some people away. |
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Posts: 2865
Location: Brookfield, WI | Question for Norm Wild.
What are you reading, my brother? Let's talk books! Baits are boring.
Kevin
Strombolis tomorrow, the dough is rising.
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| As a lure manufacturer myself this thread has gotten my attention in a good way. Lots to learn from this for everyone. Prices are high for a reason. If making lures is a full time job like it is for many there are more expenses than just the bait itself to take into consideration.
Income taxes, exise taxes, house payments, truck payments, boat payments, insurance on all of those, food, clothing, gas, advertising, ........... What if you have kids to support? There's so much that every person has to take into consideration when pricing out the lure if indeed you plan on making lures your full time job. Full time lure manufactures rarely live in big fancy homes either so most of this is just everyday common stuff.
If someone is serious about making baits in the US it's really tough to do it full time and make it. If the consumer does not want something to be made in China you might have to spend the extra money and buy american because to live in the US plain and simply costs more.
This is a good thread and thank you to everyone for the opinions as it helps all of the manufacturers see what they can do better.
Thanks,
Ty |
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Posts: 1996
Location: Pelican Lake/Three Lakes Chain | Hopeful,
Right now I am reading Vince Flynn, Seperation of Power to be exact.
The Bourne Legacy is next, I hope Lustbader measures up to Ludlum.
To use one of Sponge's old tricks, I wonder if Ludlum ever musky fished or bought baits. (to stay on topic) |
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Posts: 663
| C'mon Ty don't be so bashful. Didn't you and Rachael drive your Ferrari to the airport where you hopped on your private jet down to Aruba after the show?
Good to see you two. You guys make a great couple. All the best. |
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| interestingly enough, one of the other very popular threads here on the site right now is "What Impressed You Most at the Show..."
http://muskie.outdoorsfirst.com/board/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=32...
all through this off-season people have been talking and interested about new lures, rods, reels, electronics, boats, motors, etc., etc.
somebody must be spending money on something!
or maybe it was the Hooter(less) girls?
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| Read carefully Jay>>>the Sponge is and has been drug free for many years, w/ the exception of an occasional trip to the V.A. pharmacy; it's known as east coast intelligence derived from Woodstock fallout, saltwater, and blondes...
> Most excellent post Krappie, good to see peeps from the past come back to life...
>SLAMR>that post will be forever a classic! The "Anyone have a bobcat" post by Pointer Pride took the 2006 award for it's simplicity and hilariousness!
>>you can tell by the posts folks were wearing 16oz gloves, much unlike the old days, when bare knuckled responses were the norm, and posters were bloodied and maimed to varying degrees in the streets of cyber town...welcome to civilization!
>>>Personal view> time/effort/personal dreams/ skill go into each bait...if I want that particular bait, the $$$ I'm spending is for an item that is unique; I may never even use it, but I'm pleased nonetheless...
Norm>>>Lud dude I doubt fished muskies, as NYC didn't offer the opp, and I'd imagine his latter days in Fl were spent playing Parcheezie(?) leaving little time...thanks for asking though, as muskie fishing and bait buying are a topic rarely discussed here!
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| In Regards to selling baits
Last year we had Rappala corp has our guest speaker at our MI chapter,,,the corp sent two of their most experienced reps,,,during the course of their presentation a number of peope expressed 'pleaded' that they want a musky size Husky Jerk,,,The Rep said they have heard this request many times but that they have also approached marketing/mfg about it and the resposne was were not intrested in the set up for selling 9 thousand baits!!!,,I guess the risto or x rap surpassed 250 thousand in one year,,Rappala marketing is convinced that the musky world has a ceiling of 9000 baits |
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or maybe it was the Hooter (less ) girls?
HAHAHAHAHAHA!! |
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