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Posts: 2021
| Let's advocate for guides not being able to use it. Licensed guides have rules and regs they have to follow. After all, they fish way more than us, and are free-loading off the rest of our meager contributions to the muskie's part of the DNR funds. General tax moneys they pay do not go to muskies. |
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Posts: 15
| This is the best video i've seen that show the impact of FFS. It shows an excellent bass guide Josh Jones who chases huge bass with FFS. In this video he unwraps a new musky rod, unboxes a new musky reel, opens up a couple of new musky lures, puts new line on the reel. He uses FFS to locate a big musky and casts at it. He catches 3 50 inch muskies in 2 hours.
https://youtu.be/56Bkq0txu0o?si=FCJ_68zVhu755C8v
Edited by PaulB 5/22/2024 3:34 PM
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Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | ^^ Yup. So take a couple muskie guys who are on vacation and decide to keep going and extrapolate in that same scenario - and they don't tell anyone but the lodge owner (after a few Crown and Cokes probably). Those are the numbers that really got my attention as to the unsustainability of FFS.
Why I would want an open water refuge up here
Edited by Angling Oracle 5/22/2024 3:32 PM
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Location: Chisholm, MN | Angling Oracle - 5/22/2024 3:28 PM
^^ Yup. So take a couple muskie guys who are on vacation and decide to keep going and extrapolate in that same scenario - and they don't tell anyone but the lodge owner (after a few Crown and Cokes probably). Those are the numbers that really got my attention as to the unsustainability of FFS.
Why I would want an open water refuge up here
Doesn't even have to be muskie guys either. Just any kid with a scope. They are so desperate for a glory shot that they will pick up a floater and pose with it trying to pass it for a live fish. I've seen it. Now they can just scope 3 50's in 2 hours, and probably create a few floaters. |
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Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | Kirby Budrow - 5/22/2024 3:49 PM
Angling Oracle - 5/22/2024 3:28 PM
^^ Yup. So take a couple muskie guys who are on vacation and decide to keep going and extrapolate in that same scenario - and they don't tell anyone but the lodge owner (after a few Crown and Cokes probably). Those are the numbers that really got my attention as to the unsustainability of FFS.
Why I would want an open water refuge up here
Doesn't even have to be muskie guys either. Just any kid with a scope. They are so desperate for a glory shot that they will pick up a floater and pose with it trying to pass it for a live fish. I've seen it. Now they can just scope 3 50's in 2 hours, and probably create a few floaters.
The 20 cent leader at 3:12. Uhm... The shop should have helped him a bit more on that front.
In any event one can imagine there would be an increase in mortalities simply from neophyte handling and break-offs (there already is from targeting other species, but now we are talking actually targeting muskies using inadequate gear). |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | ARmuskyaddict - 5/22/2024 2:33 PM
Let's advocate for guides not being able to use it. Licensed guides have rules and regs they have to follow. After all, they fish way more than us, and are free-loading off the rest of our meager contributions to the muskie's part of the DNR funds. General tax moneys they pay do not go to muskies.
As far as taxes go, they are liable for the same taxes as anyone else. I fail to see how guiding is freeloading; it's work and a service other folks who don't have the gear, time, or whatever to pursue the sport on their own are willing to pay for, but I'm guessing you are just being 'unpleasant' on that one.
I'm back guiding this year after a few years off due to illness, but very little for muskie anymore, there's more work in multi-species. Guides here pay a license fee each year. I'll have to report guiding income and pay fed and state taxes like anyone else.
Much of our DNR funding comes from hunting and fishing licenses. With the dwindling number of hunters, I believe that the budget was forecast to have a 16 million dollar shortfall.
I think the MI statement covers what you are suggesting. |
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| Not an FFS related statement, but Steve's statement about DNR funding and licenses reminds me of something I think needs to be fixed. In WI, the license for seniors like me is $7. Has been for years. I get that many seniors are on a fixed income but $7?
When I buy my license online, I always make a donation to the DNR Go Wild fund but given the huge number of us old farts fishing in WI, why not make it at least $15 and give the fisheries folks additional funds? My state rep's office said there has been push back when they discuss raising license rates. My response was that they should do what is right, not what the complainers want. I don't know if $7 would pay to stock one extended growth musky fingerling.
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Location: Contrarian Island | on the license thing. Todd Berge from the Capitol City Muskies inc got a question on this years spring hearings to increase the license fee from $20 to $30. It has been $20 since 2004 which is crazy when all we hear about at the DNR is budget cuts and the license fee hasn't been raised in 20 yrs?? |
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| BNelson - 5/23/2024 12:00 PM
on the license thing. Todd Berge from the Capitol City Muskies inc got a question on this years spring hearings to increase the license fee from $20 to $30. It has been $20 since 2004 which is crazy when all we hear about at the DNR is budget cuts and the license fee hasn't been raised in 20 yrs??
I talked to a warden about this last year. He said fishermen even bring it up with him, how the fee should be increased. Not something as a state employee he can advocate for but he thought it interesting that fishermen bring it up unprompted. I have written both my state Rep and Senator. Response was basically, blah, blah, blah. |
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Location: Roscoe IL | id like to see a muskie stamp, like there are trout or salmon. That way we have a dedicated pool of money for muskie stocking, and not just a line item on the DNR budget. Its the state fish. I live in illinios but do 98% of my fishing in wisconsin, id have no problem paying for a fishing license and a stamp, if the stamp money went directly to muskie. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | The WIDNR says that if a stamp-type program was implemented, the revenue would simply replace the amount spent now. No gain, unfortunately. |
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Location: Roscoe IL | steve, but dont they use general funds on trout as well? i know most of the habitat improvement is from stamps though.
i
as far as livescope goes. I have it, and use it, but i wont sharp shoot or chase a fish around with it. Its a tool, and like anything else, it can be misused if the person doesnt have integrity. I havent seen it increase my catches over just using side imaging, but it has let me know that ive had follows where i didnt see the fish. |
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| ILESOX, you don't know the WI legislature. Our gas tax didn't get raised for almost 2 decades. Now the legislature is bragging about all the road building going on, ignoring the fact that almost all is from the federal infrastructure bill. I do think that if we had a musky stamp, the legislature, as currently composed, would simply cut general funds to DNR by a similar amount. They won't even approve DNR secretary nominees. |
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Posts: 88
| Doug Wegner added his thoughts to this whole thing. Interesting watch/listen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbtSteE2zpI |
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Location: Selkirk, Manitoba |
He did a very good job on covering a lot of the points we have touched on throughout these threads. |
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Location: WV | thank god for muskies inc. |
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Location: Michigan | So I'm more on the side of 'pro' FFS and think it's ridiculous states are possibly trying to ban it, but I definitely think this isn't fishing.
https://youtu.be/dmXb2sJe_Pk?si=Q2eWKCOCWIAVKTd2 |
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Location: Contrarian Island | But thats how it is and will be used. Fair chase is not in some peoples ethics. |
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| Couldn't you have used a different example than the Home Town Hereos Event. There's a lot to see if you look. The event is for Vets and First Responders. Come on man! |
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Location: Michigan | Top H20 - 5/29/2024 11:58 PM
Couldn't you have used a different example than the Home Town Hereos Event. There's a lot to see if you look. The event is for Vets and First Responders. Come on man!
It was just a suggested video on my youtube feed which I happened to watch. I didn't search for 'FFS Videos' or anything, it just happened to be there. |
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Posts: 1983
| The problem is fair chase is defined different by every sportsman, and ultimately it comes down to is it legal? Lots of things that are legal I’ll never do…you choose if you want to participate. I guess you can choose to look down on others that do legally what you would never do … to each there own. I really don’t care if ffs is used, I just won’t not why I muskie fish
1) you can shoot deer at 700 yards with a high power or worse yet over a bait pile is some states, give me a bow and time to pattern one animal
2) you can shoot pheasants with rifles 200 yards away (In some states), why? I want my dogs and a 20 gauge
3). You can muskie fish with suckers, I don’t know I’ve caught over a 1000 never used one never will.
If you don’t like the legal way you CAN chase a fish or animal ..all you can do is not participate |
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Location: WI | BNelson - 5/29/2024 9:52 PM
But thats how it is and will be used. Fair chase is not in some peoples ethics.
Would abiding by a ban be in these same people’s ethics? |
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Posts: 5
| It was a poor choice to prove your point. I was a guide boat at the event, some of the Vets were disabled, one was fighting cancer and were unable to spend time casting.
It will happen again in July. FWIW, I do not have FFS in my boat. Thank you for giving the event exposure even if in a left handed way. |
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| Top H20 - 5/30/2024 7:24 AM
It was a poor choice to prove your point. I was a guide boat at the event, some of the Vets were disabled, one was fighting cancer and were unable to spend time casting.
It will happen again in July. FWIW, I do not have FFS in my boat. Thank you for giving the event exposure even if in a left handed way.
Not a comment on FFS, just wanted to thank you for helping out at the event. |
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Location: Michigan | Top H20 - 5/30/2024 8:24 AM
It was a poor choice to prove your point. I was a guide boat at the event, some of the Vets were disabled, one was fighting cancer and were unable to spend time casting.
It will happen again in July. FWIW, I do not have FFS in my boat. Thank you for giving the event exposure even if in a left handed way.
Dude, relax. It was nothing against the event, just a random example that happened to pop up in my youtube feed. |
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Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | IAJustin - 5/30/2024 6:31 AM
The problem is fair chase is defined different by every sportsman, and ultimately it comes down to is it legal? Lots of things that are legal I’ll never do…you choose if you want to participate. I guess you can choose to look down on others that do legally what you would never do … to each there own. I really don’t care if ffs is used, I just won’t not why I muskie fish
1) you can shoot deer at 700 yards with a high power or worse yet over a bait pile is some states, give me a bow and time to pattern one animal
2) you can shoot pheasants with rifles 200 yards away (In some states), why? I want my dogs and a 20 gauge
3). You can muskie fish with suckers, I don’t know I’ve caught over a 1000 never used one never will.
If you don’t like the legal way you CAN chase a fish or animal ..all you can do is not participate
The "legal" way anything is decided by folks participating and deciding what is legal and what is not. The choice is not binary, do or don't do, it is if you don't like something get involved and do something about it.
The issue with muskies is that fishing with FFS is unsustainable given the trajectory of participants/users and the continued evolution of this and complementary technoglogies. The hunting analogies may be equivalent in terms of ethics, but with hunting it is not an issue with sustainability given there are limits/tag allocations. With muskies, once the populations are f'd (which they will be on the current trajectory), there is no short term solution. I don't think there is a short or long term solution in native fisheries given that my personal belief is in allopatric systems the muskies themselves manage their competitors (pike) and the large females that may targeted/susceptible in the sharpshooting scenario are probably the most important segment maintaining the population. They need a refuge.
The sooner folks have the epiphany that we need to put the kibosh on using FFS on muskies, sharpshooting them in all its forms, the more likely will be to head off a result that is unpredictable. Stocking is not and never will be a solution to this problem.
If anyone thinks walleye-centric biologists, managers are going to rescue muskie fisheries, they are delusional. I'm not saying that the don't care, they don't have the time, money or energy to be able to care.
We need to all agree the we need to protect these deep/open water fish. The Muskies Inc. statement I would say is the first step, but probably not the last in this process.
Edited by Angling Oracle 5/30/2024 10:24 AM
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Posts: 1983
| I don’t agree, so I guess we don’t all agree. Ban all fish finders then , I hated side image , before this refused to buy it. I hate that manufactures made TSS and guys try shooting turkeys at 70 yards… people have pounded open water V fish for years before this… a caught muskie comes down to handling and guess what in many systems every large fish is getting caught annually many times multiple times before FFS…. Teach good handling it’s not going away |
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Posts: 125
| I still don't understand why we think muskie fishing with FFS is "unsustainable" to the population. People are not targeting muskies for harvest. The muskie crowd is arguably the most devoted group of C & R anglers out there. Fish are taken care of and released with upmost care.
Sitting there with a big sucker is much worse for a fish. Even with a quick strike rig. Ban live bait instead for muskies. |
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Location: Contrarian Island | the tactic of 'sharpshooting' for muskies very well could be illegal in the not so distant future. Other tactics are banned for example snagging fish is. While FFS is not going away maybe some regulations will be put in place in the future. I do agree with Angling Oracle that the sustainability of many fisheries comes into question with how much 'easier' they will be to catch . with a very small % of guys using it now overall I don't see things getting better for the sport because of it... musky fishing should be a challenge and not just driving around spotting one and casting at it. maybe I'm just old now and think that time on the water should be how a guy learns to catch muskies, not a video game? |
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Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | gimruis - 5/30/2024 10:29 AM
I still don't understand why we think muskie fishing with FFS is "unsustainable" to the population. People are not targeting muskies for harvest. The muskie crowd is arguably the most devoted group of C & R anglers out there. Fish are taken care of and released with upmost care.
Sitting there with a big sucker is much worse for a fish. Even with a quick strike rig. Ban live bait instead for muskies.
The is from: Gord Pyzer, Outdoor Canada (in case the link doesn't work down your way.
"If we could reduce the handling mortality of big muskies, like this beauty being released by Lake of the Woods guide, Darcy Cox, by only four percent we would increase the muskie population by a staggering 70-percent
Crossman and Casselman were also able to show that the benefits of returning large muskies unharmed to the water resulted in an increase in the mean length of the fish, which was precisely the news that muskie anglers wanted to hear.
But the cleithrum study also showed something else.
The scientists calculated muskellunge mortality rates and compared them to the maximum age, to see if the age of the trophy fish had changed over time. And they found that that the maximum age of muskies may be decreasing. In fact, they believed that the maximum age of the fish may have decreased by 2 years—from 23 to 21 years of age—during the study period.
Now, the difference of a couple of years may not sound significant. But remember that fish spawn throughout their lives, the biggest muskies lay more eggs than the smaller fish, and that the mammoth muskellunge nearly always result from the very largest year classes.
When we view it in this context, Casselman and Crossman concluded that we would need a 70 percent increase in annual recruitment to ensure the same number of fish reach their maximum age and thus, maximum trophy size.
Now, let me read your mind.
I bet you’re wondering, if 99-percent of muskies are being released, how could the age of the oldest, trophy size fish be decreasing?
Two likely reasons: the ranks of the muskie fraternity are swelling at the same time that our knowledge base is better than ever before. There are quite simply more of us muskie anglers, we’re better skilled, better equipped and we’re catching more fish. And, while we’re putting them back, catch-and-release only works if the fish survive.
Or, to put it the way good my friend and legendary muskie angler, Dick Pearson puts it: ego kills.
Take a look at any social media site these days and you know what he means.
Gotta’ give Dick credit, too, for walking the talk. He wrote the amazing, Muskies on the Shield, one of the most comprehensive “how to” books on muskie fishing, but if you recall the front cover, it doesn’t feature an angler holding a muskie as you would suspect, but rather a beautiful Lake of the Woods sunset. I know, because I took the photo and gave it to Dick.
He has caught more big muskies than almost any angler on the planet, and yet, almost every time I call him for a photo to illustrate a feature on which I am working and have interviewed him, he tells me he doesn’t have any. Like I said, Pearson walks the talk. He keeps his fish in the water at all times, and handles them exactly like what they are: the proverbial geese that lay the golden eggs.
And if we all did the same thing this fall, and for the rest of our muskie fishing careers, and in the process reduced the handling mortality of the oldest and biggest fish by just four per cent, we would initiate the same effect as if we had increased the annual recruitment of muskies by a staggering 70 per cent.
Let’s give Casselman and Crossman the last word on the subject: “The largest trophy muskellunge in the population are usually the oldest individuals. The largest year classes produce the greatest number of old individuals; hence, extremely large year classes are required to produce the largest, oldest trophy muskellunge. If catch-and-release methods can be improved to reduce mortality, they would have the same effect as increasing recruitment and would help maintain year-class strength, longevity, and the size and number of trophy fish in the population.”"
We don't need anymore information, studies, nothing. It is already figured out by folks who have done the legwork.
CPR is all fine and dandy, but more fish caught equals more dead fish, especially in the open/deep water scenarios and with more ill-equipped anglers just out for the ego shots. |
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