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| Message Subject: do lure color choices matter? | |||
horsehunter |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | Would there be a case to be made for not using the most visible lure ( obvious fake) but rather one less visible that just creates an impression of life. I don't really believe it matters if it moves it's food I've caught several good fish this year on a finish Hoser calls Brown Perch which is quite realistic except it has an orange belly not seen a lot of fish with an orange belly. Caught a 53 this past weekend on a modified Jailbird i had made that looks like nothing that swims . I also took delivery of a Strawberry just because someone told me several times that Strawberry will not work on the Larry stay tuned | ||
| Fishysam |
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Posts: 1209 | If fishing a pressured lake, I wouldn't hesitate to throw a clear lure that the fish cant really see but feel hear and just have to take a shot to see if it's food, only thing is not very many clear lures made, I don't get why they don't make more call them jellyfish, clear with a silver/white hase, clear pink mist, clear blue haze, or just clear with some flek of what ever colors | ||
| bwalsh |
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Posts: 75 | fishpoop - 9/21/2017 1:52 PM ToddM - 9/21/2017 1:42 PM bwalsh - 9/21/2017 1:22 PM I'd be curious to know why the green blade/black bucktail combination seems to work on the Chippewa Flowage. Seems lake-specific and doesn't seem to be used much elsewhere. It works elsewhere, it works on the chip because it is a popular choice. Green/black and chartreuse/black have been standard muskie colors for years. I used to joke that you can use any color you like so long as it's chartreuse. lol Yes, green has been used on baits in many different ways on baits for years and I suppose that specific color green blade you see on the flowage is just thrown more there so its chances of success are higher. Perhaps, though, people keep throwing that color because they are meeting with some success? I remember reading on Ty Sennett's site that something like 2/3s of his bucktail fish have come on green blades/black bucktails. To me that is notable and I just wonder if it has something to do with water color or forage or something else specific to that lake. | ||
| Barphbag |
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Posts: 50 Location: Southern Indiana | There are 2 editions of "Through the Fish's Eye"- one from 1973 and one from 2016. Anybody happen to know if the books are different or just a rerelease of the same book? | ||
| Rudedog |
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Posts: 624 Location: S.W. WI | bwalsh - 9/22/2017 8:24 AM fishpoop - 9/21/2017 1:52 PM ToddM - 9/21/2017 1:42 PM bwalsh - 9/21/2017 1:22 PM I'd be curious to know why the green blade/black bucktail combination seems to work on the Chippewa Flowage. Seems lake-specific and doesn't seem to be used much elsewhere. It works elsewhere, it works on the chip because it is a popular choice. Green/black and chartreuse/black have been standard muskie colors for years. I used to joke that you can use any color you like so long as it's chartreuse. lol Yes, green has been used on baits in many different ways on baits for years and I suppose that specific color green blade you see on the flowage is just thrown more there so its chances of success are higher. Perhaps, though, people keep throwing that color because they are meeting with some success? I remember reading on Ty Sennett's site that something like 2/3s of his bucktail fish have come on green blades/black bucktails. To me that is notable and I just wonder if it has something to do with water color or forage or something else specific to that lake. I have fished the Chip a lot. I see a lot of people throwing Green/black bucks. Like about half of em, maybe more. I have done better on other colors. I'd put a lot of stock in what Ty says, but you only get them on what you throw. Maybe green is better there, hasn't been for me. but that's just me. Edited by Rudedog 9/26/2017 3:49 PM | ||
| jt.5551 |
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Posts: 1 | Black casts the best profile in the water | ||
| Larry Ramsell |
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Posts: 1291 Location: Hayward, Wisconsin | bwalsh: I have a theory about the Kelly green blades that are so popular on the Chippewa Flowage (and a few other places). If you were to catch some crappies from there, you would note that they have a Kelly green "sheen" to them. Muskies feed on crappies. Green blades merely appear to muskies to be small crappies. Exoxaddict: Your thought on lures matching fish color is right on in my opinion. That is why I used to have lure makers paint my jerk baits upside down. Caught LOTS of muskies on them! | ||
| zombietrolling |
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Posts: 246 | I have a lure that has had multiple different paint schemes(all by me and all bad looking) and all schemes have caught fish. It matters up to the point where it doesn't. | ||
| Matt DeVos |
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Posts: 580 | Some of my best baits have all the paint worn off. The baits produce as well as they used to, if not better, on the same waters where they've always produced....sort of convincing me that color is rather, unimportant... | ||
| sworrall |
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Posts: 32886 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Paint worn off doesn't mean the bait doesn't offer a 'color' footprint. Take a hard look at what muskies can (and can't) see and what happens to color in the water column. Combinations of color (different paint schemes) absolutely do not make color irrelevant. There's no such thing as a 'bad' paint job unless the lure is for sale. Anglers care a heck of a lot more about how 'real' a color pattern looks than fish do. Did you know muskies are notoriously near sighted? I would think one would not discount a primary sense fishes use to feed keeping in mind it's a an important part, but not the entirety, of the equation. Larry offers an excellent point with the upside down bait color, by the way. There's some great info offered through this entire discussion. | ||
| tcbetka |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | After reading along with this thread, I must say two things: 1) I can't wait to start reading the copy of the Sosin/Clark book I just bought. 2) I think I want to paint my boat light on one half, and dark on the other. Then on light days I'll fish off the light side, and vice versa on dark days. I'll be invisible, which is saying a lot for my fat arse. It might be just crazy enough to work... | ||
| sworrall |
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Posts: 32886 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Tom, you are the only person I know who I would believe WOULD paint your boat for an experiment. | ||
| tcbetka |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | I'm flattered (I think). TB | ||
| Matt DeVos |
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Posts: 580 | sworrall - 10/21/2017 7:57 PM Paint worn off doesn't mean the bait doesn't offer a 'color' footprint. Take a hard look at what muskies can (and can't) see and what happens to color in the water column. Combinations of color (different paint schemes) absolutely do not make color irrelevant. There's no such thing as a 'bad' paint job unless the lure is for sale. Anglers care a heck of a lot more about how 'real' a color pattern looks than fish do. Did you know muskies are notoriously near sighted? I would think one would not discount a primary sense fishes use to feed keeping in mind it's a an important part, but not the entirety, of the equation. Larry offers an excellent point with the upside down bait color, by the way. There's some great info offered through this entire discussion. Couple of things here. First, if the particular color of a hunk of wood (or plastic or metal) was relevant in determining whether a muskie will eat said hunk of wood (or plastic or metal), then one would expect that the same bait would either gain (or lose) effectiveness as the particular color wears off, while fishing the same waters. E.g., the bait wouldn't retain the same level of effectiveness when its color has altogether changed. As I said above, in my experience, my best baits have kept their effectiveness despite the loss of their original color. Basic logic tells me that color wasn't and isn't an important factor explaining the effectiveness of these particular baits. Secondly, I think we too often assume the muskies are eating our baits because our baits resemble their primary forage. I don't necessarily believe that. E.g., I have some doubt that a muskie ever believes its eating a crappie when it decides to eat a bucktail. | ||
| Larry Ramsell |
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Posts: 1291 Location: Hayward, Wisconsin | I tend to agree with Matt. I believe the "action" and/or "sound" of a lure are far more important than color. Although color my be important to the "user" and elicit more "user" confidence and therefore more attention to working the lure properly in the right places at the right time... | ||
| tcbetka |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | fishpoop - 9/21/2017 12:23 PM Odd, I was just going to suggest; Through The Fishes Eye by Sosin, when I read further down and find it already mentioned. I have an edition that was given to me in 1977 by my father when I was a Junior in high school. Dad's long since passed on but I still have the book. Fishing Lure Color Selection (Part 1). How Colors Look Underwater https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpQTh_tnJ6c Part 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTi5nJqEzvo Part 3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTqyVX3oZk0 Part 4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5P6UMGiT7o Snip... This was GREAT information Paul--thanks so much for posting it! In fact I would go so far as to say that this series of videos should be "required information" that people must watch before they can comment/debate/argue about the importance of lure color(s) in the whole scheme of things. The visuals presented in that video series are used perfectly to illustrate the concepts of light absorption by water, the refraction/reflection of light, and the effects of wave action and particulate matter on light penetration. Incredible stuff! Hey Steve, I'd like to propose that you make a sticky (in the Biology section ?) with these video links in it. I think it would save a lot of debate/argument in the threads, and therefore the energy that people have to devote to this type of discussion can be based on a solid foundation of the physics of light across an air/water interface, and the basic effects of water on light transmission. TB Edited by tcbetka 10/22/2017 8:42 AM | ||
| sworrall |
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Posts: 32886 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Tom, No matter what we link up, the discussion will not change. What happens to light under the water, and color as a result is not in question and should never be, that's well defined. What muskies see is pretty well defined as well. So what's the issue? Some folks do not read the entire thread. People are, apparently, arguing with me that lure colors don't matter, and that morphs into whether the paint job is 'natural' and so on. Here's what I said earlier in this discussion: 1) Muskies can see color, but it's not as simple as that. Water breaks down light quickly (think a rainbow) so even at high noon in very clear water, the longer frequencies are gone pretty fast. In 10' on a clear day a coke can on the bottom will appear black or nearly black. Color (cone) vision is there on a clock basis only, reverting to black and white (rod) vision as a process that is clock based, not light availability based. In the evening it's likely that muskies may not see much color for two reasons, light availability due to sun angle, and whether they physically can see color at the time. Then there's the issue of how colors on baits are made. If the primary color in orange, for example, is red with a bit of yellow added, that lure will appear grey and darker/faster than if the primary color is yellow with a bit of red added. Settle on contrast, and use dark lures against a light background (like a cloudy day) and light lures against a darker background (like a sunny day) and if going deep against rocks, weeds, etc. contrast there too. Black is a guaranteed correct color no matter what as the absence of all color, and white is as the presence of all color. Remember muskies see what is slightly above to directly above them all the time, can't see the end of their nose or a short triangle area in front of their face, and are badly nearsighted, so the detail you see on a lure is wasted on a muskie. And also keep in mind scale color on baitfish is markedly different that that of most paints. Contrast is the key, if they can see it they will hit it active enough, and most of the time will miss it or follow if they can't. 2) After a very inaccurate comment: Fishysam - 9/11/2017 8:55 PM I would say your color ideas in the first post are correct, steves information is great, but. If the fish can locate a lure any way other than just sight- I only think color matters 2-3 days a month... Me: Contrast matters every day, and not just a little. Muskies are sight feeders, meaning that a large part of the stimulus creating a strike response is attached to seeing the bait, and if they can't see the lure well are very prone to miss it, as well. The better they can see it, the better the entire process goes well. Color underwater translates pretty quickly to a contrast discussion because of what the water does to light. Since muskies basically look up all the time, and water does crazy things to light, there's more than just what you see above the water when you choose your lure color. And then: Jerry Newman - 9/13/2017 4:30 PM Last week we ran 3 to 4 of the same color and type bait in a six line spread from a continuation of the day before, yet the first 3 fish that day all came on the same inside board bait. I think more times than not a lot of what we do becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, especially with color (self included). If what Steve says is correct… couldn't we just paint half of the lure all black and the other half all white and be done with it? And… if they're primarily sight feeders, how do they ever track and bite a lure so accurately at night? Me: It's correct, and pretty much with the black and white lure idea...yes. However, some colors, especially compound colors, contrast better. What about finishes that do a better job of reflecting light than others? Take a look at what happens to light in the water, how much light is reflected off the water's surface, what colors disappear first, and what colors make up compound colors. Real science stuff, and pretty darned conclusive. I actually do a seminar for clubs, etc showing exactly what happens to color as the light drops. One can see a contrasting lure really well, but not one single person can tell me what color the lure is. Forget about your watch, that's not the clock nature runs on. Learn about sun time and seasonal sun angles, that will help you select structural elements at times for best conditions/timing. And when you find out muskies are sensitive and subject to all this (you will), try fishing really big crappies and learn what that fish can actually do. Tough buggers to catch, the biggest of the big crappies in any one lake or river. Then learn about the structure and function of the muskie's eyes. Did you know muskies are very seriously near sighted? Did you know that depth perception is a real issue for muskies? How about that 30 degree window? How far in front of a muskie does the blind spot go? What does that mean? For over 35 years I've been trying to read and learn everything I can about what these critters really can and can't do. Still learning.A volume of the behavior one sees in fishes is very attributable to their eyesight, and then there's the other senses, and how everything welds together into a strike response, which is what we all seek. Study 'rod vision' and how incredibly sensitive to light the muskie's eyes are after dark and for a time leading up to dark because it's already dark down there. It's not anywhere near as dark under the water at night to a muskie as it is to us, we don't have that kind of eye structure. Add some moonlight...and factor in the muskie's fixed iris (like a camera shutter wide open all the time) and it becomes clear muskies don't see at all like we do and live in a much different world than us. What we see looking at a lure above the water is irrelevant in so many ways. The most technically accurate definition of color is: "Color is the visual effect that is caused by the spectral composition of the light emitted, transmitted, or reflected by objects." "objects"= lure colors, that is, and the reflected light...where does that come from? What if red has been filtered out and cannot be reflected back to the muskie's eyes, what color is a red lure then? How about an orange lure? Depends on how the compound color was made and the process in which it was applied to the lure body. ----------------------------------- And then there's the UV spectrum. Back a long time ago we used to discuss this sort of thing quite a bit here. I miss those debates.... And then: Mudpuppy - 9/19/2017 5:10 PM Through The Fishes Eye, by Prof. John Clark, University of Penn is the best I found on the topic of color. Mudpuppy Me: Sosin and Clark. Mark is an amazing angler. When I finally met him and told him how much the book meant to me, he said," So YOU are the guy who bought one!" Great sense of humor too. ----- And then: bwalsh - 9/21/2017 1:22 PM I'd be curious to know why the green blade/black bucktail combination seems to work on the Chippewa Flowage. Seems lake-specific and doesn't seem to be used much elsewhere. Me: Green is yellow/blue compound color. If it's painted over a white surface it 'gathers' more light. http://indianapublicmedia.org/amomentofscience/a-magical-glow/ As said, then there's the UV spectrum.... Black is always right, and no matter what color is with the black, will contrast so the fish can see it well. It may not be the chartreuse getting it done at all, depending. It also MAY be, depending on sky conditions. Cloudy day? No. Sunny day? yep. fishpoop - 9/21/2017 1:24 PM johnsonaaro2 - 9/21/2017 12:58 PM --- Pink turns to gray as it goes deeper in the water, as explained already in this thread and in the video links, so maybe the pink/white bucktail became gray/white bucktail and better matched the forage, Cisco's?? You tell me! ----- One interesting point to this also is that fluorescent colors are able to reflect a much broader range of the light spectrum than conventional colors can. Maybe the pink blades were fluorescent and thus stayed bright where the other colors faded? Nice thought but no they weren't fluorescent paints just basic pink. Me: White and red is famous for working well. It's basically white and black most of the time. Pink is basically gray. And then: horsehunter - 9/21/2017 5:02 PM What nobody can prove one way or another is whether another bait style or colour at the EXACT time, speed, depth wouldn't have achieved the same desired result. I caught a lot of fish back in the 70's when all my lures fit in a styrofoam minnow bucket now they won't all fit in the boat because I was drinking the Koolaid I rarely use more than 4 lures in a days fishing Me: True, but why knowingly fish a lure the muskies will have trouble seeing? Just increases misses, follows, and will put fewer fish in the net. It's part of the equation, not the whole. Horsehunter: Whether my local stained lake or the very clear St Lawrence where i spend a lot of my time I'm not sure you could find a colour that a muskie couldn't see including my firetiger suicks that are now mostly paintless . Many times i have caught fish in the front of a boat and the person in the back of the boat has caught fish on a totally different colour. I also caught a muskie that appeared to be totally blind that seemed to be doing quite well. As a side note I was told by Dr. Bruce Tufts Queens University that the biggest trigger for a lure regardless of colours was vertical bars Me: They have to see the bars for that to be a trigger. Totally different color doesn't mean either or both are maximized, and doesn't mean they are not. Knowing they are is the key. Muskies can feed when blind, but not anywhere nearly as well. The other sensory organs adapt to a degree. -------------------------- And then some comments seem to argue I am saying something I CLEARLY was not. Why? Because folks respond to the last page and haven't read the rest. Happens all the time. Bottom line, here's what I know. Color. Contrast. I want the muskies I am fishing for to see the lure, as they are sight feeders. Pretty much the end of the story. Don't assume the color of the lure is even close to the same 5' down, and the color will be totally different depending on cloud cover, time of day, and season. I offered a 6 hour session in the courses I used to teach at Nicolet, and used a series of conditions recreated for the classroom to show folks how refraction, absorption, and particulate count effects color through the water column, and how that changes the available contrast for the background against which the fish see the lure. Bottom line that: The better they can see it, the better the entire process goes well. --------------- The whole 'action of the lure' has to do with pressure waves. Completely different discussion dealing with another sense fish use to hunt prey. And one just as murky unless the entire subject matter is covered...and read, lots to debate. | ||
| horsehunter |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | So I watched the You tube's linked in the biology thread mostly facts that I had read or heard before. It only strengthens MY PERSONAL belief that colour or fancy scale patterns , painted fins is the least important part of the equation. As a side note I have no desire to target or catch muskies from depths greater than 30 feet and preferably much less. | ||
| thescottith |
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Posts: 444 | Anyone ever seen that Muskie with big red tumors over its eyes. I believe a dude from Thornes got it, no eyes. 52" if I remember correctly. | ||
| Martin79 |
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Posts: 34 | One hot summer day I caught 6 (small) Muskies in about 30 min below a dam on a all black pacemaker. My buddy threw the gold, dark green , and firetiger in same spot /same retrieve zero bites. Huge storm front was coming. Fish were goin nuts , but he still didn't get bit. Had some swirls but that's it Edited by Martin79 10/30/2017 9:18 PM | ||
| tcbetka |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | esoxaddict - 9/11/2017 3:35 PM In a perfect world, the boat should match the color of your truck, including seats, carpet. etc. But when you're buying used, condition trumps all. Unless it's brown. No brown boats. Looks like a giant turd... I ordered a Ranger cover to go with the GREEN (mostly, some gray too) Ranger Angler boat I bought this past June. So Ranger makes me one, through the dealer I bought the boat from, and 8 weeks later...it gets delivered. So I pull it out of the box today because I need to cover the boat with it, and what color do you suppose it is? Yup, brown. So now I have a green boat with some gray trim and a nice little blue strip on the side, all covered with a brown cover. Yay. I guess I need to call Ranger and find out who specified the color. If it's the dealer, then I have an issue with them. Not that color affects the functionality of the cover in the least of course, but it's sort of God awful to look a...a brown cover, with a green hull sticking out. Sigh... TB | ||
| tcbetka |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | Barphbag - 9/26/2017 9:29 AM There are 2 editions of "Through the Fish's Eye"- one from 1973 and one from 2016. Anybody happen to know if the books are different or just a rerelease of the same book? I have the hard copy from 1973, and last week I paid $15 for the Kindle version (2015). Thus far I haven't found any discrepancies. I haven't gone back through every page I had already read in the 1973 edition--but I did check a bunch of pages, and didn't see any difference in either the text or the figures in the book. I just find it more convenient to read the book on Kindle (52-yo eyes...), so that's why I went with the new version. TB | ||
| bwalsh |
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Posts: 75 | Thank you for sharing the very helpful information on this thread. | ||
| horsehunter |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | https://www.facebook.com/pecheqc/videos/679610468830050/?hc_ref=ARQw... | ||
| horsehunter |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | This shows what colour does but nothing to convince me that it matters to a muskie . It may be of interest to salmon and trout guys. I wish the demonstration had included white. Edited by horsehunter 11/14/2017 7:02 AM | ||
| tcbetka |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | Amazing video--thanks for posting it! I was very surprised to see how well the pink and orange colors fared at those depths. I would have thought that the orange would have faded away. I believe the various resources we've discussed in this thread indicated that orange doesn't show up well after about 40 feet. | ||
| sworrall |
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Posts: 32886 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | horsehunter - 11/14/2017 6:26 AM This shows what colour does but nothing to convince me that it matters to a muskie . It may be of interest to salmon and trout guys. I wish the demonstration had included white. The color of the lure above the water is not relevant, it's below that counts and what it actually looks like to the muskies. I've been doing almost exactly that demo in seminars for over 20 years by lowering the light to imitate conditions in mildly turbid water as the sun rises across the sky and sets. Everyone knows this already from looking for their car in a parking lot as light goes down, the car colors go to shades between dark and light. Something to note: That video was done in what appears to be extremely clear water on what appears to be a very bright sunny day. Add particulate and have some of that available light bounce off the surface or be blocked by clouds, and the color will be entirely gone way faster. Morning the sun angle allows for much of the light to bounce off the surface, same with evening. Since contrast against the background which the lure is presented is a major issue for the fish to see it, one wants that to happen big time. Is the lure presenting a dark footprint against a light background or a light footprint against a dark background? That's what matters and is exactly what I've been saying (including how one can tell) all along. Tom, it depends on HOW the orange was made. That one was made with way more yellow than red and may be infused in white plastic. Reverse that and it goes gray in the first 10 feet. | ||
| horsehunter |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | sworrall - 11/14/2017 9:39 AM horsehunter - 11/14/2017 6:26 AM This shows what colour does but nothing to convince me that it matters to a muskie . It may be of interest to salmon and trout guys. I wish the demonstration had included white. The color of the lure above the water is not relevant, it's below that counts and what it actually looks like to the muskies. Response ( don't know how this ran together) I have never said the colour above the water (or below ) was relevant so colour shifts mean nothing to me especially as I have no desire to target fish below 25 or 30 feet. I firmly believe timing, location and presentation are much more important than colour or the make and model of a lure. I would have no problem fishing the rest of my time with all my productive lures sprayed totally flat black. If colour changes and cycling through numerous lures is what you like go for it . The way i fish satisfies me. I posted the video because I thought some might find it interesting, not because i feel colour matters Edited by horsehunter 11/14/2017 10:00 AM | ||
| horsehunter |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | I have some seemingly identical lures and one has caught many fish and one has caught none. Initially both lures had relatively equal trolling hours often at the same time which leads me to conclude the triggering factor is something other than colour. Of course after time the unproductive lure gets less ans less time in the water ans the other lure continues to catch fish. This lure has been productive in both bright and cloudy days and also after dark. After checking these lures behind a waterwolf camera the productive lure is considerably louder, the lures do not contain rattles. | ||
| ToddM |
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Posts: 20219 Location: oswego, il | I had talked to lsc charter captains who have said color can matter at times. I can remember one day for example a charter captain told us the only baits bit that day had mosltly red on them. I understand the effects of color underwater and the study of the muskie's eye. Is there a way to know how the muskie's brain processes it? Different than a human? Edited by ToddM 11/14/2017 10:31 AM | ||
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