|
|
Posts: 5171
| Mr. Ramsell didn't you prove that the Malo calf fish weighed 70 lbs?I understand it was disqualified because it was weighed on an uncertufied scale.Just wondering if this fish was somewhere around the 69 or 70 lb mark?. |
|
| |
|
| 4amuskie - 3/3/2017 5:13 PM
Larry
I appreciate your the intense dedication you have and the painstaking work you do and I thank you for it. I also believe the world record program should end. I see no purpose to it at all other than to put someones name on a list for a fish that can change its weight in an instant by eating a 5 lb walleye or 10 lbs of cisco or shad or be laden with eggs. No one believes Louie Spray but I give him credit for a good ride. It was fun. Time to move on.
The muskie world has done something few others have and its called catch and release. Time to say photos are good enough. We all know a giant when we see it even though we might argue about it. Part of life. Just my opinion, but I enjoy yours too.
Interesting comment. Many years ago, maybe 40, saw a mount from the late 1950s. My buddie's uncle had been fishing late October in N. WI, with a sucker. He caught a huge muskie that went over 40# on a sporting goods store scale. He took it to a nearby taxidermist. The guy called him right after he got home. He asked if he hadn't caught it on a big sucker. When my friends uncle replied that was right, the taxidermist said, "well she must have been really hungry because she had a walleye that must be almost 5# in her gut and looks like it was just swallowed". They decided to mount the musky over the mounted walleye. My friend's uncle said the fish had a huge belly and the photos showed that but he was dumbfounded the musky would then turn around and eat a sucker he estimated was 15" or 16". That walleye was what pushed the fish well over 40#. Without it, it might not have made it.
Edited by North of 8 3/5/2017 7:50 PM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 1291
Location: Hayward, Wisconsin | 0723: That was before I learned that the poachers has stuffed a northern pike down its gut before it was weighed. It also had over 8 pounds of spawn in it...it was taken in April before it had a chance to spawn. Live, during open season and empty it was likely a fish in the 50 pound class somewhere. |
|
| |
|
Location: 31 | Lots of hoaxes like Malo in that area... check out the crowd that gathered. LOL
Edited by Jerry Newman 3/6/2017 12:56 PM
Attachments
----------------
 1967 muskie hoax.jpg (28KB - 530 downloads)
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 141
Location: Minnetonka | This Letter to Ben East, with the photos of Spray around the outside is the most telling of his lies. Most people know the bottom left photo as the world record fish, yet he claims it as his 61 pound, second world record. He claims the top left photo is the world record, 69 pound fish, but it's very clear that it's actually the fish from the bottom right, shot from a different angle with gills flared. That fish is noted as a 43 pound fish. It's so plain that it's nearly insulting. He even has his hat at the exact same angle, same clothes, same marks on fish, blood by gill plate. Ridiculous. I'm sure Larry has pointed this out in one of his books. You'll hear no more from me on the subject for now.
(Spray Letter to Ben East.jpg)
Attachments
----------------
Spray Letter to Ben East.jpg (60KB - 524 downloads)
|
|
| |
|
| North of 8 - 3/5/2017 7:49 PM
4amuskie - 3/3/2017 5:13 PM
Larry
I appreciate your the intense dedication you have and the painstaking work you do and I thank you for it. I also believe the world record program should end. I see no purpose to it at all other than to put someones name on a list for a fish that can change its weight in an instant by eating a 5 lb walleye or 10 lbs of cisco or shad or be laden with eggs. No one believes Louie Spray but I give him credit for a good ride. It was fun. Time to move on.
The muskie world has done something few others have and its called catch and release. Time to say photos are good enough. We all know a giant when we see it even though we might argue about it. Part of life. Just my opinion, but I enjoy yours too.
Interesting comment. Many years ago, maybe 40, saw a mount from the late 1950s. My buddie's uncle had been fishing late October in N. WI, with a sucker. He caught a huge muskie that went over 40# on a sporting goods store scale. He took it to a nearby taxidermist. The guy called him right after he got home. He asked if he hadn't caught it on a big sucker. When my friends uncle replied that was right, the taxidermist said, "well she must have been really hungry because she had a walleye that must be almost 5# in her gut and looks like it was just swallowed". They decided to mount the musky over the mounted walleye. My friend's uncle said the fish had a huge belly and the photos showed that but he was dumbfounded the musky would then turn around and eat a sucker he estimated was 15" or 16". That walleye was what pushed the fish well over 40#. Without it, it might not have made it.
Exactly correct and the reason why these weight records are BS in "MY" opinion. Lets judge a fish by how much it just ate and which ever one just ate the biggest or most fish before it was caught wins. Time to move on.
I love Louie stories, Hartman stories, Johnson stories, all of them. Brought alot of interest into this sport and likely had something to do with where its at today. I can just see and hear the young uns talking when heading to the Chip about the monsters that live there. History is an interesting thing even when its BS.
Thank you Louie Spray, Len Hartman, Cal Johnson and all the others! You did more for our sport than you can imagine. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 5171
| Larry Ramsell - 3/6/2017 8:07 AM
0723: That was before I learned that the poachers has stuffed a northern pike down its gut before it was weighed. It also had over 8 pounds of spawn in it...it was taken in April before it had a chance to spawn. Live, during open season and empty it was likely a fish in the 50 pound class somewhere. Ok thx I remember something years ago when you made a comment about Malos fish maybe the record. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1405
Location: Detroit River | sworrall - 3/2/2017 10:41 PM Oh, I don't know, the current 58# fish is darned impressive. Is that the Michigan fish caught in Oct. 2012? The article on the Modern Muskie Records page states that the fish was caught with live bait & that conflicts with stories that were out when it was caught as they stated he caught it on plastic drop shotting. Also one of the angler's had stated before that the fish was hooked in the side & not in the mouth, which under Michigan law a fish must be hooked in the mouth to be a legal fish. So many stories go around that get published with incorrect data. There was a fish caught in LSC that was included in an article in Musky Hunter & they stated that the fish was released to be caught again when I knew that the fish had actually died when it was caught & I confirmed it with the charter captain after I had read the article. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1291
Location: Hayward, Wisconsin | Zib: The 58-pounder referred to by Mr. Worrall is indeed the Michigan fish from Bellaire Lake, in October of 2012 and I know of no stories about that fish having been caught "plastic drop shotting", nor was the fish hooked in the side. The fish was verified and sactioned by the Michigan DNR as well as the Modern Day World Record Muskellunge Committee and is very well documented. It was caught on a 7 1/4 inch live sucker.
Edited by Larry Ramsell 3/7/2017 10:19 AM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 8782
| I can also see a lot of young guys going to Hayward because that's their best shot at a giant fish and coming home disappointed because their biggest for the week was 47". Fishing with the mindset that there are opportunities far beyond what a body of water can produce does not create passion and excitement about fishing. |
|
| |
|
Location: 31 | 4amuskie - I love Louie stories, Hartman stories, Johnson stories, all of them. Brought alot of interest into this sport and likely had something to do with where its at today. I can just see and hear the young uns talking when heading to the Chip about the monsters that live there. History is an interesting thing even when its BS. Thank you Louie Spray, Len Hartman, Cal Johnson and all the others! You did more for our sport than you can imagine. I simply do not share your enthusiasm because they lied, cheated and stole from honest and deserving people who played by the rules. The people you mentioned didn't just grossly lie about the size of the fish for fun, they basically committed perjury to obtain large cash prizes, and deliberately misled the unsuspecting public in an effort to separate them from their hard earned money. Take the case of Cal Johnson for instance; (I'm not condoning his act), but he was a real fisherman and decent guy who was definitely influenced by Louie to commit a serious crime (stole a car) that he should have went to jail for.
Those same “young uns” you speak of should have been talking about true gentlemen like Dick Sleight, who might have guided Rita Hildebrandt to the real Wisconsin State record. I think she would have been a much better ambassador for Wisconsin than Louie, and hard-working guides like Dick certainly captured the essence of what a real muskie fisherman was about in that era. What you speak of would have happened, it just would have happened with real fish and credible stories from deserving people.
You are right about how they “did more for our sport than you imagine”… Yes, but IMHO they only did the kind of damage that Lance Armstrong did for bicycling (again not condoning it)… but at least Lance Armstrong peddled his own bike over the finish line. |
|
| |
|
| Jerry Newman - 3/7/2017 11:56 AM
4amuskie - I love Louie stories, Hartman stories, Johnson stories, all of them. Brought alot of interest into this sport and likely had something to do with where its at today. I can just see and hear the young uns talking when heading to the Chip about the monsters that live there. History is an interesting thing even when its BS. Thank you Louie Spray, Len Hartman, Cal Johnson and all the others! You did more for our sport than you can imagine. I simply do not share your enthusiasm because they lied, cheated and stole from honest and deserving people who played by the rules. The people you mentioned didn't just grossly lie about the size of the fish for fun, they basically committed perjury to obtain large cash prizes, and deliberately misled the unsuspecting public in an effort to separate them from their hard earned money. Take the case of Cal Johnson for instance; (I'm not condoning his act), but he was a real fisherman and decent guy who was definitely influenced by Louie to commit a serious crime (stole a car) that he should have went to jail for.
Those same “young uns” you speak of should have been talking about true gentlemen like Dick Sleight, who might have guided Rita Hildebrandt to the real Wisconsin State record. I think she would have been a much better ambassador for Wisconsin than Louie, and hard-working guides like Dick certainly captured the essence of what a real muskie fisherman was about in that era. What you speak of would have happened, it just would have happened with real fish and credible stories from deserving people.
You are right about how they “did more for our sport than you imagine”… Yes, but IMHO they only did the kind of damage that Lance Armstrong did for bicycling (again not condoning it)… but at least Lance Armstrong peddled his own bike over the finish line.
Not condoning their conduct by any means and yes, it was criminal in nature, but the fact remains that alot of interest was stirred in the sport and still is today because of it.
I promote fishing ethics, honesty, abide by our laws and try to instill these values on family and friends, but I find their stories interesting.
I also remember Len Hartman coming to the muskie clubs and members sucking up to him like a God. I feel more duped by Hartman quite honestly because it was during my time and easier to relate to. His actions were criminal also and he sure sucked a bunch into his world before he came clean.
Good Lance Armstrong comparison and when we look back we can see easily that it was wrong. Just like Sosa and Mcquire, but it wasn't clear at the time and it influenced the sport in a positive manner for most. Maybe it even made us a bit more skeptical of people today. I will be the first in line to denounce cheating, lying and law breaking.
I didnt look at Louie and say, geez I wonder if I can stuff a fish with weights and see if I can get a world record. I read the stories and thought about giant muskie and the chance to get one too. Not a world record but just the thought of one of those beasts was enough.
It has obviously influenced yourself and others as overlookers of ethics and honesty. Most muskie fishman realize theses stories are false but also realize that our sport has evolved past the quest for a world record muskie. Skeptism is at an all time high in the world of social media and its not all bad.
I still like seeing the big muskie in Hayward.
Edited by 4amuskie 3/7/2017 12:44 PM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 239
Location: Elroy, Wisconsin | Hey Mr. Ramsell, When and who appointed you Grand Pubah of musky records anyway? Spray, Johnson, Hartman did more for musky fishing all the negative judgements you have promoted.
I have met all three of the above persons, all were characters and all interesting and one of a kind to say the least. Enjoy the old timers and old ledgends of the past, they helped get us where we are today.
Mudpuppy |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Mudpuppy - 3/8/2017 7:09 PM
Hey Mr. Ramsell, When and who appointed you Grand Pubah of musky records anyway? Spray, Johnson, Hartman did more for musky fishing all the negative judgements you have promoted.
I have met all three of the above persons, all were characters and all interesting and one of a kind to say the least. Enjoy the old timers and old ledgends of the past, they helped get us where we are today.
Mudpuppy
Larry is a historian, so getting to the truth is his unique personal responsibility. OFM published this information because it's news and fact. Reasonable discussion is welcome, but the old records are so obviously overblown it has little merit to argue that. All that's left is to use the old 'Why are you messing with legend and history?' argument, and that's actually exactly the point...we are learning what really happened and it's inevitable some people won't like it much.
If what's getting discussed here seems negative, it's because it is what it is. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 716
| Mudpuppy - 3/8/2017 7:09 PM
Hey Mr. Ramsell, When and who appointed you Grand Pubah of musky records anyway? Spray, Johnson, Hartman did more for musky fishing all the negative judgements you have promoted.
I have met all three of the above persons, all were characters and all interesting and one of a kind to say the least. Enjoy the old timers and old ledgends of the past, they helped get us where we are today.
Mudpuppy
Disclaimer: I have no dog in this fight. I have stated many times before that IMO ANY record muskie is a paper champion of sorts in that it was simply a really big fish that someone decided to actually document (the paper part). There are plenty of big fish caught that really never get promoted or go thru any real scrutiny because of that lack of promotion. Some of them are likely bigger than the new records. Do I believe the old ones are bogus...hell yes. Do I think bigger fish have been caught than the new records...hell yes. Does it really matter what I think to most...probably not.
That said:
As far as Larry whom I have met briefly once and corresponded with a few time being "appointed" The Grand Pubah" no one did. He simply has a passion for the history and evolution of Muskie fishing to a level that could be labeled more that slightly obsessive and has researched the subject to a depth that I don't think any one else can claim. That search for detail has made him a Pubah of sorts whether he started down that path on purpose or it just led him there. In that path he came across such obvious BS from people making claims that they just could not be accurate so he did the research, got the answers and he called the "characters" out for it. The sport may or not be better for it depending on your point of view but calling out Larry for pointing out the obvious flaws in the claims doesn't really make much sense either. He's just striving to be accurate in his research and reporting as such...even if you really don't give a rats ass about the specifics or the subject.
And his books are a pretty darn good read. The view points on what/who was biggest evolves thru the series but in the end it is a great view of the history of Muskie fishing.
Bob T
Edited by bturg 3/8/2017 10:31 PM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 386
| Mudpuppy - 3/8/2017 7:09 PM
Hey Mr. Ramsell, When and who appointed you Grand Pubah of musky records anyway? Spray, Johnson, Hartman did more for musky fishing all the negative judgements you have promoted.
I have met all three of the above persons, all were characters and all interesting and one of a kind to say the least. Enjoy the old timers and old ledgends of the past, they helped get us where we are today.
Mudpuppy
Have you ever watched the Forgotten Weapons channel on YouTube or fullthirty.com? If you have, Larry = Ian to the Muskie world. Thanks again Larry for all the hard work you do! |
|
| |
|
Posts: 20219
Location: oswego, il | Mudpuppy - 3/8/2017 7:09 PM
Hey Mr. Ramsell, When and who appointed you Grand Pubah of musky records anyway? Spray, Johnson, Hartman did more for musky fishing all the negative judgements you have promoted.
I have met all three of the above persons, all were characters and all interesting and one of a kind to say the least. Enjoy the old timers and old ledgends of the past, they helped get us where we are today.
Mudpuppy
How about Art Lawton? |
|
| |
|
Posts: 239
Location: Elroy, Wisconsin | Never met Art Lawton, but I had the pleasure of fishing with Len Hartmn on Vieux Dessert one time.
Mudpuppy |
|
| |
|
Posts: 2753
Location: Mauston, Wisconsin | “Louie (who lived in the area at that time) had always told us he’d pay good money for a real big one. So, we (Paul and his brother) gave it to him and a couple of days later he produces the big muskie. He never paid what he said he would. He lied to me and I never did it for him again (although Paul’s brother did – Louie’s claimed 1940 world record!). I’m still ticked off about him not paying!”
Did everyone read the context of the above paragraph? Did Paul legally catch the fish? Or did he intend to sell it? The first is not clear, the later is clear, however, he never recieved payment. Louie knew if he showed the fish first, he wouldn't have to pay Paul, because Paul would have to remain silient.
Legally, Paul's intent is not a crime (although a moral one), if he recieved payment it would have been a crime..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poaching#Poaching_in_the_USA
If you catch her, thump her hard and put a lid on Spray's grave and 1949 record. Its that easy. No need for further debate! Go fishing......
Have fun!
Al |
|
| |
|
Posts: 20219
Location: oswego, il | So Al, what you are saying is for us to go out and catch one bigger than the 49 record, a weight that most don't believe to even exist? |
|
| |
|
| ESOX Maniac - 3/11/2017 8:46 AM
“Louie (who lived in the area at that time ) had always told us he’d pay good money for a real big one. So, we (Paul and his brother ) gave it to him and a couple of days later he produces the big muskie. He never paid what he said he would. He lied to me and I never did it for him again (although Paul’s brother did – Louie’s claimed 1940 world record! ). I’m still ticked off about him not paying!”
Did everyone read the context of the above paragraph? Did Paul legally catch the fish? Or did he intend to sell it? The first is not clear, the later is clear, however, he never recieved payment. Louie knew if he showed the fish first, he wouldn't have to pay Paul, because Paul would have to remain silient.
Legally, Paul's intent is not a crime (although a moral one ), if he recieved payment it would have been a crime..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poaching#Poaching_in_the_USA
If you catch her, thump her hard and put a lid on Spray's grave and 1949 record. Its that easy. No need for further debate! Go fishing......
Have fun!
Al
You missed the part where this Paul said he caught the fish in an area by a dam that was closed to fishing. He was a poacher, regardless of whether he got paid by Spray. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 95
| Was Paul a Native American ?? That was the story I was told by a pretty good source that Louie paid the natives to catch fish below the winter dam out of season. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1291
Location: Hayward, Wisconsin | esocriebe: NO. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 105
Location: Florida | What do you guys believe is the maximum size a Muskie can attain? I am reading conflicting answers and I would like to know what you guys think is the biggest a Muskie can get at this moment in time. I have a book that says a +90 pound Muskie was caught in a fishing net, but this was almost a century ago. Does anyone think that +70 pound Muskies can exist at this moment, but have not been caught since these Muskies are better at avoiding fishermen? |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | travelingfisherman - 3/11/2017 7:38 PM
What do you guys believe is the maximum size a Muskie can attain? I am reading conflicting answers and I would like to know what you guys think is the biggest a Muskie can get at this moment in time. I have a book that says a +90 pound Muskie was caught in a fishing net, but this was almost a century ago. Does anyone think that +70 pound Muskies can exist at this moment, but have not been caught since these Muskies are better at avoiding fishermen?
They are not better at avoiding fishermen. There are just very few seriously big muskies in each body of water. Does a 70# muskie exist? Maybe. No one has caught one and registered it yet. |
|
| |
|
| Seems unlikely that fish today are smaller and fishermen today have tools that folks even 45 years ago could only dream of. Everything from trolling motors to sonar to far better rods, lines, and even the information available is so much better. Plus, there are many more musky fisherman.
If you read the old sporting magazines from the early part of the 20th century, there were poachers who used things like a sucker tied under a branch that served as a giant bobber. They would put out 4 or 5 on a lake and then come back to check the next day or so. The muskies would be gut hooked and they used branches because it looked like normal debris in the lake. Hard to see how they could have lived longer back in the day. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1084
Location: Aurora | Glaucus_ - 3/2/2017 9:59 AM
This topic really isn't discussed enough.
Agreed,
Love the way history gets re-written via new technology, science, first hand accounts & personal vignettes, letters, photos, analysis, etc. It's essential and significant to those precious few without agenda who are in continual pursuit of the elusive, head-shakin', tail-walkin' truth. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 8782
| I'd venture to say that a pre - spawn fish, living in the right environment, with a full belly, could tip the scales at 70#. Somewhere like Green Bay, The Ottawa River, maybe even Eagle or Lac Seul. But you're talking about THE biggest fish in the lake, during a time when it has a maximum egg mass and has just finished a giant meal, during a time of year when the season is closed. That same fish, hungry, during the season? Not sure, but I can't imagine it being much over 50#.
Now... Let's talk about 50#. That's a fish that does not exist in great numbers anywhere and does not exist at all throughout most of their range. Looking at the weight calculators, it's easy to see why. Here are a few length/girth combinations that would theoretically get you over 50#:
52"x28"
55"x27"
58"x26.5"
Lots of girth measurements get tossed around out there, but even on the longest fish of 55 and up are closer to 22"-23". Every once in a great while someone gets a super fatty with a girth of 25"-26". But check the big fish pictures here. You'll be hard pressed to find a legitimate 50# fish. That's a fish of a lifetime for someone who has dedicated a lifetime to fishing for them, and doing so in a place known to produce giant fish.
Not saying it's impossible. But it's not going to happen in July, and it's not going to happen in Hayward.
Edited by esoxaddict 3/12/2017 12:15 PM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 73
| I suppose in the big, big picture of world-wide issues the accuracy of Musky world records don’t matter all that much. But then again neither do a thousand other things. But for those who value the hobby of Musky fishing and things related as important to them, it has its time and place. Larry just happens to someone who is particularly passionate about it, as both a historian and an accomplished angler. We could vote on the Grand Puba status, I suppose.  But I respect the man quite a bit even without the title, and he’s taken a lot of personal flack for presenting his case. Steve W. seems to be a fairly cranial guy, and apparently considers the matter worth a measure of discussion year after year. Me…I’m as flawed as the next guy and have no desires to be anybody’s moral conscience in life. Yet there’s something about what seems to be an intentional effort to deceive the public for political and monetary gain that bugs me. So I appreciate Larry’s passion and Steve’s willingness to provide a forum for the subject matter on occasions. It’s always a risk to share your perspectives on this volatile matter, because you just may find your post highlighted in another guy’s rebuttal later on. But such is the nature of discussion. |
|
| |
|
Location: Sawyer County, WI | esoxaddict - 3/12/2017 12:12 PM
Not saying it's impossible. But it's not going to happen in July, and it's not going to happen in Hayward.
It's not going to happen anywhere if people keep their boats locked up in their garages. |
|
| |
