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horsehunter |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | If a manufacturer wants to sell direct so be it. Retailers that support them are cutting their own throat . If I was a retailer I certainly wouldn't be carrying the product of someone who was competing against me. Manufacturers who take special show colours to a show are only cannabalising their retailers sales and should probably offer them through their retailers. | ||
| h2os2t |
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Posts: 941 Location: Freedom, WI | Horsehunter - If show colors were offered to retailers and and there are lots of retailers it would not be special as then it would almost be a standard color. People do go to shows looking for show colors that are limited. I do not do show colors myself as I am a smaller manufacturer and might do only a few of any color. A lot of manufacturers will do special colors for retailers if asked. | ||
| Junkman |
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Posts: 1220 | I know some folks who are going to open "yet another" musky related tackle store in an area where the market is flooded already. There isn't enough cash coming to those already there and now the market will be diluted further. Last fall I worked pretty hard to research an article about why muske tournaments had relatively poor numbers of the anglers getting fish on a given day. One of my contributing experts had the best answer. He said you could put a couple hundred skilled anglers on the water.....but, on any given day, the lake would surrender only so many fish. It's the same reason so many of us save up for a trip to some far away Lake X. There's only so many dollars (really very few) to chase in the musky world and those chasing it can only stand so much "pressure" on their water before they opt to fish for another species. | ||
| PIKEMASTER |
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Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | Alot of Tackle Stores today make there own Line of Rods, Bucktails and Spinner Baits, I wonder what the Manufacturers think about that. I guess there is a little greed on both sides. | ||
| Brozz88 |
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Posts: 216 | No way man, I like those show only custom colors that everybody dosent have. I wouldn't want them available thru retail so everybodys got one. Those low numbers custom colors might not Be popular enough for retail to make big money on anyway.In northern Ny i can't even get to the shows but I like buying a few customs thru this site and catching fish on em. Then watch your buddies eyes light up when he sees it and says where'd you get that color man?im just envious when i see some of these show only baits on here for sale but i wouldnt want it any other way.Theres alot if ppl that arent making it to those shows or see this site either.its only a few days cant you all just get along. I went to the big hamburg Pa sports expo a few years back,I didn't find a lot of Muskie musthaves but it was cool. Booked an Illinois whitetail hunt.thinkin about drivin the 500 miles to go to the Muskie max this Saturday just to see if I can score a few rare new baits.And however said that you Probly don't go looking for stock off the shelf colors and lures was right too, Probly not unless there at a discount or something,cuz you can just order them from home | ||
| horsehunter |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | Colours and fancy scales catch fishermen. In any given bait I can live with firetiger or glitter perch and black perch and fish anywhere. Third choice would be jailbird. Edited by horsehunter 3/3/2014 8:26 AM | ||
| Brozz88 |
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Posts: 216 | Maybe for you man, but when we drag the same bait as the other boats over the same hump on the graph. You know they see it too and if i know him,you yell to him what you using? Oh yup fire tiger or black perch or whatever it may be same lure I was just dragging!then you snap on this new custom that you just scored and on the bext pass bang FISH ON! It happens they get sick of seeing the same old stuff.something different gets bit sometimes and sometimes it's the same old tried and true. I here ya firetiger is one of my favorites and up to bat right there next to natural walleye.But those times you dont catch a fish maybe one of those custom,non run of the mill, lures woulda put the monster in your boat man. Or maybe they just catch my eye! | ||
| M Winther |
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| it's called free enterprise...the market will decide what survives and what doesn't. i don't need anyone telling me what i should or shouldn't buy or who i should or shouldn't buy it from. it's not nice, it's business. survival of the fittest with no "right" or "wrong" involved. and the desire to make money is not greed - it provides people with jobs and livings. but only if those people are able to compete effectively for my money. if retailers don't like competition from manufacturers at the shows, they can either outcompete them on price, outcompete on service/selection, or just plain don't go. it's no different than more than one retailer being at the show selling the same products. plus the big retailers do have some leverage with manufacturers if they're willing to say "we won't carry your product unless..." if manufacturers don't like other companies "copying" their double-10 bucktail and attending the shows, they can outcompete on price/quality/brand recognition, stay home, or they can disappear. if they would rather attend a show than defer to a retailer, that's their choice too as are any results good or bad. if a show suffers without certain retailers or manufacturers being present, new ones will spring up with a different approach to replace them. 'Merica! | |||
| kyle smoker tackle |
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| Like I said before(I never under cut any retailers )and I never carried colors of lures carried by my retailers example this year guides choice brought a couple sizes and asked us if we were going to bring the same colors.So out of common courtesy we did not bring them.and only brought customs in the sizes they now carry.But I will tell you this every year we have more people ask for the tried and true stock colors than customs.I really dont no why but that's a fact.Thanks for everyones thoughts they all make sense . . | |||
| gordonmann69 |
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Posts: 149 | PIKEMASTER - 3/3/2014 8:09 AM Alot of Tackle Stores today make there own Line of Rods, Bucktails and Spinner Baits, I wonder what the Manufacturers think about that. I guess there is a little greed on both sides. BINGO!! I have talked with many manufacturers and this is what I have heard. Pete, ask Jim from Rollie and Helens how he can ask the manufacturers to do this when R&H sells their own line of rods, lures and leaders. So does Throne Bros and others. Seems to me both sides are doing it. | ||
| Corso Mike |
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Posts: 182 | M Winther - 3/3/2014 8:40 AM it's called free enterprise...the market will decide what survives and what doesn't. i don't need anyone telling me what i should or shouldn't buy or who i should or shouldn't buy it from. it's not nice, it's business. survival of the fittest with no "right" or "wrong" involved. and the desire to make money is not greed - it provides people with jobs and livings. but only if those people are able to compete effectively for my money. if retailers don't like competition from manufacturers at the shows, they can either outcompete them on price, outcompete on service/selection, or just plain don't go. it's no different than more than one retailer being at the show selling the same products. plus the big retailers do have some leverage with manufacturers if they're willing to say "we won't carry your product unless..." if manufacturers don't like other companies "copying" their double-10 bucktail and attending the shows, they can outcompete on price/quality/brand recognition, stay home, or they can disappear. if they would rather attend a show than defer to a retailer, that's their choice too as are any results good or bad. if a show suffers without certain retailers or manufacturers being present, new ones will spring up with a different approach to replace them. 'Merica! I wish we could all live in such a simplistic world as you. | ||
| M Winther |
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Corso Mike - 3/3/2014 12:33 PM I wish we could all live in such a simplistic world as you. Okay...what alternative do you propose to the forces of supply and demand operating within a free marketplace? | |||
| kyle smoker tackle |
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| Holy smokes folks.I wasnt trying to wake up the hornets nest.It was just a simple question. | |||
| Junkman |
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Posts: 1220 | This stuff, for those who really are careful to pick apart fact from fiction, will create anger and frustration to be injected into the discussion. If you look at the Washington Post, once powerful enough to take down a president, and one of the top three Newspapers in America, much can be learned. It just sold a few months ago for relatively nothing, in fact about 5 times less than Facebook paid last week for a small texting application that hasn't made a dime yet. What does that say for a brick and mortar musky store? Nothing good! I don't like it, so I am trying to help delay the future. I do my shopping at stores near the lakes I fish and I will continue to do so until I can't. | ||
| Peter Stoltman |
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Posts: 218 | gordonmann69 - 3/3/2014 12:02 PM PIKEMASTER - 3/3/2014 8:09 AM Alot of Tackle Stores today make there own Line of Rods, Bucktails and Spinner Baits, I wonder what the Manufacturers think about that. I guess there is a little greed on both sides. BINGO!! I have talked with many manufacturers and this is what I have heard. Pete, ask Jim from Rollie and Helens how he can ask the manufacturers to do this when R&H sells their own line of rods, lures and leaders. So does Throne Bros and others. Seems to me both sides are doing it. I had said pretty much all I had to say on the topic and was going to leave it alone but since this question was addressed directly to me I'll answer the best I can and then leave it alone. This has been a very civil discussion and various views and opinions expressed. I have a feeling that pursuing the topic much further than this on a public forum is just going around in circles and probably has the potential to turn ugly at some point. Now regarding the question at hand. If you really want to ask Jim a question regarding his business practices you can just give him a call. He is probably the most open and honest guy I've ever worked for. So I won't presume to answer for him but here is my take on stores having "their own" products. We don't manufacture anything. Products that have the Musky Shop name on them are purchased from manufacturers as private label products. In other words we have contracted with a manufacturer to produce a product to our specifications that then has the shop name on it. Currently there are two product lines, the Musky Shop Custom Rods and Musky Shop Leaders. We don't have a secret little room under the shop where we are building rods or tying leaders. Just as we do with any other manufacturer we are purchasing a product that has the store name on it. This is no different than let's say the Bass Pro Shop rods or Cabela's having their Guide Series rods. So I guess I'm not seeing how this is much different. We are still purchasing from a manufacturer and then selling to the public. It's still following the conventional system of marketing a product with the manufacturer producing the product and then either selling to a distributor or the retailer who then markets and sells the product to the public. As a side note addressing Kyle's concerns. I don't think there is any need to apologize or be concerned at all. You brought up an interesting topic that generated some real good discussion. There will always be at least two or more sides to this story but I think it's great that perhaps through discussing our collective ideas we can all help to improve the sport and maybe understand where the other guy is coming from. Heck I just put up a nice sized re-stock order of Smoker Tackle last week that makes for a very nice display in the store. And for those who care to think about this further we carry something like 45 individual sku's of Kyle's lures. I don't see that changing anytime soon because he makes a darned good product and we have a good working relationship. I'm guessing there aren't a whole lot of other stores who carry that kind of variety of SS Shads. Keep up the good work Kyle. | ||
| sworrall |
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Posts: 32955 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | ' Currently there are two product lines, the Musky Shop Custom Rods and Musky Shop Leaders. We don't have a secret little room under the shop where we are building rods or tying leaders.' There's the BINGO....actually, lack of one. Thanks for the retail perspective Pete. | ||
| Sidejack |
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Posts: 1082 Location: Aurora | As a consumer, I like seeing manufacturers and retailers at the shows together but fear retailers are doing more harm than good to their business when they don't communicate with the manufacturers/inventors or engage with the consumer. Hit the WI show last weekend and noticed several price differences between the two with the manufacturer's consistently lower. Even the Shimano booth was selling reels cheaper than the in-house retailers. Savvy consumers know what stuff is selling for and notice these price differences. If they want to pay full price for a black mag dawg, they'll order one online or walk in off the street and buy one before or after the show season. This has gotta be a lose-lose situation for the retailer because the consumer is always gonna side with the manufacturer and be suspicious of why the retailer charges more. Also, it can't be a secret that the retailer setting up a full inventory with regular pricing is gonna look out of place at these shows. The agenda is crystal clear if all they do is sit on a chair, waiting to collect money and as a retailer, if they're not willing to evolve along with the manufacturers and consumers that drive the market, they'll eventually face extinction. I know that both can live in harmony at the shows because there's a few retailers that do well by proactively engaging with the manufacturers, marketing approaches, and consumers. They're easy to spot with show special/package pricing, pro staff giving demos/sharing information, and friendly customer service. As a result, there's a "buzz" about the deals they're offering and folks are walking around with their bags in-hand as a result. This approach makes more sense and consumers seem to respond. | ||
| sworrall |
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Posts: 32955 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | How many consumers actually attend the shows? More people visit here over a show's span than attend the Chicago, Milwaukee, and Wisconsin Expos combined. If the manufacturers ever have to go it alone, the process short circuits. Sure, online shopping is growing in popularity, and will take a chunk of the retail market. Savvy retailers know that already and have adjusted. One has to reach the buyer. Shows alone won't get that done unless the brand's production run is very small. Booth space and expenses takes a big chunk of the profits out. I know some builders attend the shows to promote, try to make a little, and make sure the public sees them....a form of promotion/advertising and an advertising expense. If all of the retailers leave the shows, woe to the shows; there will be booths full of vacation property salesmen and the anglers will stop attending. Balance is the key. | ||
| Peter Stoltman |
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Posts: 218 | Sidejack, are you serious that Shimano was selling product at their booth with Shimano dealers also exhibiting? That is a new twist. I would think at least one dealer that I know who exhibited at that show would have had a fit if Shimano was selling product directly to the consumer. I have NEVER seen them do that before. | ||
| Jeff78 |
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Posts: 1660 Location: central Wisconsin | I did not see Shimano selling any reels, demos only. They did give me a new hat as apparently I was wearing the oldest Shimano hat he had ever seen. | ||
| Sidejack |
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Posts: 1082 Location: Aurora | Peter Stoltman - 3/4/2014 6:58 AM Sidejack, are you serious that Shimano was selling product at their booth with Shimano dealers also exhibiting?.. Unsolicited, they offered the 400D fer $349.00 Then, all three reps began looking around the booth and said it was their last one. | ||
| M Winther |
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How many consumers actually attend the shows? More people visit here over a show's span than attend the Chicago, Milwaukee, and Wisconsin Expos combined. tons of people visit this and other websites. the difference is that while at one of the shows in person they have both the opportunity and (usually) the inclination to buy something while they're there. it might be something they saw or read about online, but a lot of actual buying still happens in person at shows and stores. attendance numbers vary depending on the show. according to the Wausau Ch 9 news report, the Wisconsin Expo organizers estimated that 2,000 people attended this year. people there said it was busy. the Madison Fishing Expo (multi-species but lots of musky presence) sees 25,000 people through the doors each year. there were times where it was tough to stop at a booth because of the crowd pressure. Joe Bucher told one of the organizers this year that it's the best fishing show he's ever attended. selling lures at a show is a numbers game: you will only get a small percentage of folks at the show to stop, and a smaller amount to buy. more attendees = more sales. so, the show has to be attractive enough to draw in many people if it is going to be worthwhile for sellers to attend. if the show promoters get a big crowd of people to show up, it's up to the sellers to capitalize on it. quit worrying about trying to tell the next guy down the row what he should or shouldn't do running his business, and instead focus on what it takes to get my money out of my pocket...i'm there, so i'm ready to spend it. Edited by M Winther 3/4/2014 8:14 AM | |||
| Buliwyf |
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Posts: 42 | I have to drive an hour and a half south to get to R+H, just to give you an idea how far I drive to get to the Milwaukee show. Even though I drive right past R+H to get there I would be a lot less inclined to drive down to the show if they were not retailing there. If I want to buy a new reel, or certain rods they are often the only outlet at the show. They carry manufactures that do not attend. Anyway, the more vendors at the show the more interested I will be in attending. I would summarize my position with a Bob Marley Quote "When the rain falls it don't fall on just one mans house." | ||
| kyle smoker tackle |
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| Thanks Pete,we enjoy working with you as well. Glad you understood we I was comming from. | |||
| ShutUpNFish |
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 Posts: 1202 Location: Money, PA | The funny thing to me is that people see you collect $15, $20 or $25 for a lure and they immediately think..."Man are they raking in the bucks!" ...Yeah OK! I, like Fat A.Z., have a full time career and make baits on the side...trust me, there's ONLY a handful of people who do it full time and are making a living at it (I'm talking about full manufacturers)...there's a reason for that. Time and work WE manufactures put in vs. the money return hardly would seem worth it. If I broke down all the supply costs, taxes and time sensitive nature of the materials used; it would blow most people away. I currently do not carry any baits in retail for a few reasons...one, I'm too busy as it is with my online orders, word of mouth and the few shows I do attend. Two, I have a life, family/kids and I fish hard when the time comes. However, the main reason is this...I have had several retailers approach me so they could potentially carry my baits in their stores; MOST, not all, but most want me to sell them my product for next to nothing. I'm sorry, but I put a lot of pride and hard work into EACH bait that leaves my shop. I do not farm anything out to China, Mexico or any foreign country for bodies or any parts that go into my product. They are ALL made by hand and hand airbrushed then hand assembled by ME. Some of the offers I have been given were downright slaps to the face. There are also liability costs and insurances and packaging costs that just are not worth the time or hassle. Now, don't get me wrong, I totally understand that the retailers have their place and certainly offer a convenience factor to the consumers and I totally understand and support that. They SO have their place in the muskie community which is essential; but so do the down home boys who are sweatin' their asses off in some basements somewhere producing hand made baits AND choose to sell them on their own. Call it what you will, crafts or art or whatever....BUT bottom line is I create these things for one main reason and one reason only, and that's to BANG fish! A lot of all this is simply about integrity...I choose not to deal with retailers at this time for various reasons, nothing personal against them AND I realize that someday I may actually NEED the retailers. However, if I did sell to retailers, why in the world would I ever want to sell my product for as much or even less that the retailer I sell to? That just seems, not only dumb, but certainly lacking integrity...The door also swings both ways and I've seen some guys get burnt by certain retailers in regards to costs, promotions etc. There are two online retailers that I plan to eventually work with when the time comes. They are CLASS acts and that's who I choose to deal with. In this business I have found that two things are things to keep your eye out for....Reliability and Integrity! Back to the original Q, Do we need a manufacturer's only show?? My question is "For what?" What's the purpose and how does it benefit everybody in the muskie fishing community? Aren't we all in this together?? Edited by ShutUpNFish 3/4/2014 1:12 PM | ||
| Corso Mike |
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Posts: 182 | M Winther - 3/3/2014 1:55 PM Corso Mike - 3/3/2014 12:33 PM I wish we could all live in such a simplistic world as you. Okay...what alternative do you propose to the forces of supply and demand operating within a free marketplace? M Winther I apologize for being rude. Not my normal M.O.. I am own a wholesale/manufacturing company. We live and die with our retailers. Without them we would not exist. For us to go into a show and sell directly would end many good, long standing relationships. I am not in the fishing industry. This may be why I find this discussion hard to understand. | ||
| backdraft |
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Posts: 241 | OK - Here is a good example. (names intentionally left off) Contacted a retail store on the phone yesterday about a rod I wanted to buy. They carry many brands but not this particular model. I asked if they could order it in for me. I was willing to pay the normal markup, shipping, etc. I don't expect a deal and actually expected to pay a nominal fee for the extra work. They said "No". I would have to contact the manufacturer and order it myself. Hhhhmmm - OK. I don't understand all the logistics behind a retail store but in my business we would have taken this "special order". Backdraft | ||
| sworrall |
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Posts: 32955 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Good example of what? That has nothing to do with the original question and has nothing to do with a show. Some manufacturers have minimum order requirements and do not allow a retailer to 'cherry pick' the line; some require a minimum $ order, etc. | ||
| backdraft |
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Posts: 241 | Oh - OK, sorry. You can remove it if you want. It's an example of TRYING to buy from a retailer as opposed to buying direct from a manufacturer or an internet only store. That explains the answer I was given. I didn't realize some manufacturers have minimum order requirements and do not allow a retailer to 'cherry pick' the line; some require a minimum $ order, etc. | ||
| ESOX Maniac |
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Posts: 2754 Location: Mauston, Wisconsin | Having been on both sides, I too would think a lure maker only show is likely going to be failure. Yes, the guys who don't sell through retail channels will likely make some money. But they can also do that with the existing shows. I like seeing the non-lure makers there, I find stuff, I can't find else where. I also patronize the retailers, like Rolllie & Helen's, Thorne Bros, Musky Shop, etc. because I don't drive by their shops every year. I get stuff the bait makers are not offering.... reels, line, tools, etc. Pete, is right failing to pay the taxman will put you out of business in a hurry! Folks seemed to be surprised that we added the tax to the sale, instead of rolling it into the show price> Smart retailer's add the tax to the total sale, it makes tax accounting easier if you have multiple products. LOL- I was thinking the Milw Muskie Show's theme should have been "Blades & Tinsel for Muskies". Have fun! Al | ||
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