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| I would like to know who came up with the idea that a muskellunge can see a thin dark colored 12" wire leader and then makes the decision that he is being tricked into eating something that's fake and wisely leaves.
I would also like to know how this same muskellunge can then be fooled to eat a fake meal because he can not see a thick piece of 12" line while completely ignoring the two or three 5/0- 8/0 hooks dangling from this fake meal and the fact that it doesn't look like anything that he has ever seen swimming in the lake before..
An even more interesting scenario is the muskellunge that is tricked into eating a large live sucker that has those funny looking hooks hanging on each side like big ear rings but eats it because he cant see a 12" leader.
I think I am with Jerry on this one. |
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Posts: 537
Location: Gilberts IL/Rhinelander WI | 4amuskie - 3/25/2013 9:05 PM
I would like to know who came up with the idea that a muskellunge can see a thin dark colored 12" wire leader and then makes the decision that he is being tricked into eating something that's fake and wisely leaves.
I would also like to know how this same muskellunge can then be fooled to eat a fake meal because he can not see a thick piece of 12" line while completely ignoring the two or three 5/0- 8/0 hooks dangling from this fake meal and the fact that it doesn't look like anything that he has ever seen swimming in the lake before..
An even more interesting scenario is the muskellunge that is tricked into eating a large live sucker that has those funny looking hooks hanging on each side like big ear rings but eats it because he cant see a 12" leader.
I think I am with Jerry on this one.
The fact that fluoro is "invisible underwater" has no bearing whatsoever as to why many , including myself, use it in many applications. Just sayin... |
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| Some good information here..
I had a 130 fail on me but luckily got the muskie in the net. Ive also seen a few other floro leaders fail on HARD hook sets. Usually close to the boat when it was a sudden quick swift reaction hook set with the fish being less than 10ft away when striking.
Heres the leader that broke on me on my personal best fish. Basically was sliced right through you can see the deep slices and cuts in the rest of the leader.
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Location: 31 | Big Rock - 3/25/2013 8:38 PM I have had several fish boat side cut floro like butter on the hookset. Its not on my line anymore. Anything can fail, less likely with wire. Okay, I think we found the poster child for the fluorocarbon versus wire debate... Thanks Mark! I was getting ready to post something along the lines of all it takes is one bite off incident and you're back to wire, so you're not going to get a testimonial of somebody having had multiple bite offs. I was wrong... I was also talking to a good friend this afternoon (who every person on this board has heard of) and he has witnessed a boat side fish cut through heavy fluorocarbon too. So, I think I have enough information to make an informed decision after careful consideration. I'm in the process of making new leaders and the fluorocarbon I was using in clear water situations is going in the garbage after I salvaged the components. Thanks for sharing the picture Ian, glad to hear fish was boated but guessing your considering only wire now as well. |
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| If you use equipment properly you won't have anymore issues than you would with wire. BR |
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| I actually caught a 51" on the leader. Just the leader across the width of its mouth. That thing was tight lipped and liked that leader so much he wouldn't let go. I have a witness. That was enough justification for me. No floro leader made would have stood up to that. |
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Location: 31 |
BenR - 3/25/2013 2:42 PM Wire can fail as well, metal fatigue is real. The scars fish receive from wire leaders is very real as well. Line can break, lures can break. There is always a chance of something going wrong, just part of fishing. Each person can use what they like. BR Ben, it is understood that everything can fail and most of us will probably just be going back and using what we have and like unless something changes our opinion. I've changed my option... However, there are people reading this who are new to the sport and still on the fence to consider here, and in order to have some intelligent dialogue regarding the merits of fluorocarbon versus wire, the conversation needs to start from a point where both the wire and fluorocarbon are brand-new and everything else is equal. So, even though wire can fatigue and fail, so can fluorocarbon if overused, so I consider that to be a mute point. Less assume for the sake of argument that both leader materials have the same trustworthy crimps, snaps etc. and discuss the merits of wire versus fluorocarbon only. My only reason for using fluorocarbon in the past was that I perceived it to be less visible in clear water, and that somehow that mattered to the fish along the lines of what 4amuskie and Ben have said. The key thought here being that I “perceived” it to be something because there's no way to know if it actually matters to a muskie. It does seem a little odd to me to think that I concerned myself with disguising a couple feet of line when these fish follow right to the boat, then grab an artificial lure that's a foot behind a rod tip being sloshed around in the water. Just sayin... |
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Posts: 2024
| After reading this, I am seriously considering switching to the hybrid leader. I don't get to fish enough to worry about possibly losing a fish to a cut leader.
Does anyone have any info, or the link to look up the design?
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Posts: 415
| BenR - 3/25/2013 9:43 PM
If you use equipment properly you won't have anymore issues than you would with wire. BR
Care to elaborate? |
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| Ja Rule - 3/26/2013 6:08 AM
BenR - 3/25/2013 9:43 PM
If you use equipment properly you won't have anymore issues than you would with wire. BR
Care to elaborate?
It is important to balance your equipment. BR |
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Posts: 153
Location: MN | I have never used floro leaders because of the chances for bite offs, and personaly think the muskie seeing the leader and not striking the bait theory is stupid. After reading this whole thread I may start using floro after dark for perfect boatside figure 8's
I will check out the link provided. When tying the uni knots what # test floro works good for tying good knots? And do you have to super glue? |
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| I use all types of leaders, steel, coated seven strand, and flouro. A person should be using the right tool for the right job. My flouro leaders are used the least. I don't find them necessary for most applications.
I know have heard so many stories through the years of leader failure. It absolutely amazes me how cheap some fisherman can be when it comes to changing leaders. I change all my leaders frequently and toss them out regardless of how well they may look. I am not about to spend the kind of money I spend chasing fish to have a leader failure ruin my day. |
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Posts: 833
| The flourocarbon is attached via hollowcore braid. You literally thread the flouro up into the line using a DAHO needle. BTURG has a great video on how to do this the Thorne Site. There are actually two connections: The threaded flouro to the hollow core and then the loop to lopp to the main line. If you wanted to run your reel with hollow core line you could eliminate the latter connection.
I've considered running hollow ace, but I find I enjoy drier braids like the 832 Suffix, so I plan to keep the loop to loop.
With regards to the photo above I caught a 48-49" fish this summer trolling a Krisco. This fish had my leader completely in it's mouth when it got in the net, crosswise, so across the teeth. That leader did not fail although I have since reitred it. The point here is that I'm sure that for all the breakoff/bite-off anecdotes there is probably one on the other side of the coin. The only way to settle this "debate" would be to do some mosntrous study to demonstrate quantitatively what the increased chance of bite-off ends up being. Otherwise it is just a forum post and someone who reads it for advice is just going to take away whatever story they find more convincing without really "knowing" anything.
As far as leaders go, I find the Wind-On system offers the most advantage to my fishing and I do not feel it is putting the fish at increased risk. Mileage may vary and people can do what they want, I'm not some fishing dictator. (LOL) Just letting folks know there are alternatives out there. |
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Posts: 153
Location: MN | I found the video, thanks I will have to give this a try. |
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Posts: 2097
| I am going to stick with my flurocarbon leaders. They don't kink and I have never lost a fish. |
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Posts: 416
Location: Madtown, WI | Can't you just tie a knot in your line for a "time to figure 8" indicator? Tie an overhand knot in your line a couple feet from your leader and you should be able to feel that when it hits your rod tip. Never tried it, but it's much easier than the wind on system....
As for flouro, not worth the risk. I use toothy critty leader material with any baits that tend to kink your leaders (like a bulldawg). |
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Posts: 415
| BenR - 3/26/2013 6:57 AM
Ja Rule - 3/26/2013 6:08 AM
BenR - 3/25/2013 9:43 PM
If you use equipment properly you won't have anymore issues than you would with wire. BR
Care to elaborate?
It is important to balance your equipment. BR
VERY informative, thank you. |
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Posts: 415
| stdevos - 3/26/2013 1:52 PM
Can't you just tie a knot in your line for a "time to figure 8" indicator? Tie an overhand knot in your line a couple feet from your leader and you should be able to feel that when it hits your rod tip.
That's what I've been doing for years, works quite well. |
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| Ja Rule - 3/26/2013 2:28 PM
BenR - 3/26/2013 6:57 AM
Ja Rule - 3/26/2013 6:08 AM
BenR - 3/25/2013 9:43 PM
If you use equipment properly you won't have anymore issues than you would with wire. BR
Care to elaborate?
It is important to balance your equipment. BR
VERY informative, thank you.
I have used 80lb with my jig rod and fly rods with great success and no bite offs. With my heavier casting rods I use 150-180lb. Many of my trolling leaders are 200lb to minimize the cuts on fish that roll. I do use 130lb leaders to troll smaller baits on lighter trolling rods with great success as well. If you are using ocean reels, xxh rods, and super heavy hooks, you are going to have to take into consideration the pressure you are putting on the leader. BR |
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| just tie a knot in your line for a "time to figure 8" indicator? Tie an overhand knot in your line a couple feet from your leader
QUESTION Ive long wondered regarding precisely this: will this knot (in braid) cause a weak point ? TIA |
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Posts: 833
| An overhand knot is rated at ~50% strength relative to the line you tie it with. Of course, to each their own... |
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Posts: 121
Location: Forest Lake, MN & Bemidji, MN | A great alternative if someone wants an extremely flexible leader with the bite off protection of wire is the Stealth 49 strand. It's very hard to kink one and they fish pretty similar to fluorocarbon, just heavier. The primary reason I began using fluorocarbon (180lb) was it's flexibility when casting specific baits. I had heard of bite offs and was highly skeptical until it nearly happened to me on a boatside strike in the first turn of an 8. Fish hit a pounder head on and cut a nice chunk out of the leader (pictured) in the process. The leader did not fail, but my confidence in the material did and I think that's the most important part. Maybe it was a bad batch, I don't know. I still use 5ft of fluorocarbon when trolling to help with a rolling fish but I have started to shy away from it casting. Just sharing an experience. I think one thing everyone can agree on is losing a fish to terminal tackle failure sucks. I lose enough to operator error.
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Posts: 153
Location: MN | I wouldn't use an overhand knot, but a slip bobber knot should do the same thing.
I think I am going to tie a couple new leaders like suggested.
I have always just made my own leaders from wire.
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| For those using Gregg Thomas' leader, or tying flouro directly to the braid with a double uni-knot, what's the heaviest flouro that you can use?
I don't have any experience tying knots in heavy flouro, but I have a hard time believing that that knot would cinch down very tight.
I believe I've read that Thomas' leader attaches with a double uni, and that that knot goes through the guides to give the tell-tale tick as it passes through.
I really like the idea of a leader without the heavy swivel out front for certain applications.
Thoughts or experiences? |
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Location: Madison, WI | i've done each, and knots in the line, or a slip-bobber knot aren't nearly as easy to hear as the Wind-On leader system. the sound as the head of the leader moves up through the eyelets is distinct and very noticeable.
interestingly, i've had 2 wire leaders fail (one on a fish, one on a rock) and broken quite a few when trying to straighten them back out after getting kinked up. i've only had one fluoro leader cut, and that was by a fish thrashing in the net, but never during a cast. maybe i should quit using wire leaders? 
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Posts: 4266
| I make my own wire leaders and buy the best terminal connections. One year I lost a big glider on a cast and a big fish during a fight. Both times the snap failed. Now the bottom end of my leaders are just a loop and every lure that I own has a heavy duty split ring in the nose. I've never had a split ring open like a snap. |
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Posts: 4266
| I make my own wire leaders and buy the best terminal connections. One year I lost a big glider on a cast and a big fish during a fight. Both times the snap failed. Now the bottom end of my leaders are just a loop and every lure that I own has a heavy duty split ring in the nose. I've never had a split ring open like a snap. |
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Posts: 1504
Location: Oregon | This is an interesting discussion and now you guys have my scared to use flouro leaders, lol. A few years back I lost two salmon in one day on 30# flouro and have never used it for salmon since.
Jed |
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Posts: 2894
Location: Yahara River Chain | jfreborg - 3/26/2013 5:28 PM
A great alternative if someone wants an extremely flexible leader with the bite off protection of wire is the Stealth 49 strand.
That is what LeadersandLures.com uses. This stuff just doesn't kink, like I said, it may pigtail a bit, but straightens out when you crank the bait in. L&L also has 21 and 19 strand wire. This is the same stuff they used to steer airplane rudders. I'm not sure how John @ Stealth does it, but Gene has a machine that makes sure its not under or over crimped. I have Gene make mine with a solid ring and I won't use snaps as Beaver says, to easy to open up or fail. |
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Location: Minneapolis | What's a good size split ring to put on the nose of all baits? |
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