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| Message Subject: NY Great Lakes Muskie Season Changes | |||
Top H2O |
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Posts: 4080 Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | Still no one has answered the 10 million dollar question,......WHY??? does the NYSDEC want to move the season back 15 days , from Dec 15, to Nov.30 .?? Larry you have stated that you are the only one fishing the last 15 days of the season, but you also say if the season ends on Nov. 30,, that everyone will crowd out and put more fishing pressure on the Canadian side/LSC/Detroit river,....?,... How can this be if your the ONLY one fishing the New York side? I'm Confused. There must be a legitimate reason or two, that the NYSDEC wants to change things,....... don't you think? | ||
| Guest |
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| Larry stated he is the only one fishing the harbor most days, sadly this is true. Hes not the only one fishing the US waters of the Niagara or st. Lawrence river though so obviously any fisherman fishing there in December are going to fish elsewhere. The nysdec is looking to make a change to make the great lakes season consistant across the state. Right now the season closes Nov 30th on the U.S. side of the upper Niagara and lake Erie and Dec 15th everywhere else, including all of the St. Lawrence, lake Ontario, the lower Niagara and Canadian waters of the upper river and Erie. If the nysdec were to choose Dec 15 the seasons would share the same closing date with the boardering Canadian waters and correct the imbalance that exists on the upper Niagara and eastern lake Erie. A Nov 30th close would create a further imbalance and force fisherman into Canadian waters across the state for the final 15 days. The reasons to choose one date or the other are pretty obvious. Further protect egg laiden big females for 15 additional days? Or take into account that today's angler is much better educated on proper release, water temps are at the best all season for successful release and allow anglers to pursue the fish of a lifetime. In any event Canadian waters will remain open until December 15th. It won't decide so much if fish will still be caught in December as it will decide on which side of the boarder they are caught on and how many boats will be forced to fish the same areas. | |||
| LarryJones |
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Posts: 1247 Location: On the Niagara River in Buffalo, NY | If the NY Great Lakes part of the St.Lawrence River is closed on Nov 30th,there will be more pressure on the Canadian Waters & 40 Acre Shoals.Some that do not have big enough boats to handle the harsh conditions that come up by 40 Acre Shoals in December,that use to fish in areas protected from winds in NY Waters will travel other places.One place would be the already over stressed Canadian Waters between Strawberry Island and Frenchmens Creek of the Upper Niagara River where West & SW high winds still allow mostly calm water fishing.Others would head to the Detroit River as well and on good weather days Lake St.Claire. The Best that could happen for NY Muskie Season is: NY Inland Muskie Waters 3rd Saturday in May to Dec 15th(raising sizelimit from 30" to 42")---NY Great Lakes Muskie Season 3rd Saturday in June to Dec 15th(with 54" Sizelimit) Then the 15 Days of December Muskie Fishing would be spread out through out All NY State Muskie Waters and Canadian Waters!What is less stressfull for the muskies,pound one area to death or spread it accross all the waters. Edited by LarryJones 2/26/2013 9:58 AM | ||
| LarryJones |
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Posts: 1247 Location: On the Niagara River in Buffalo, NY | {Still no one has answered the 10 million dollar question,......WHY??? does the NYSDEC want to move the season back 15 days , from Dec 15, to Nov.30 .?? } Some of the membership of the Niagara Musky Assoc. that were instrumental in getting the Nov 30th closing date for the Upper Niagara River & Lake Erie some years back are giving the NSDEC a hard time about changing to Dec 15th.So the NYSDEC finds it easier to change the season to Nov 30th accross the NY State Great Lakes Waters then to deal with trying to get those in the NMA to change.The NMA Menbership is split on Nov 30th or Dec 15th,with most of the board pushing Nov 30th.The whole fishery has changed very much since the days when the Nov 30th closing date was set,waters cool later and bigger fish move in later,so we are protecting fish that are most of the time not even here in November,they are somewhere way out in the depths of Lake Erie near the forage base,gizzard shad schools.There are some in the NMA that will tell you the whole fishery has crashed with no recuitment,well the fish may not be spawing in the Buffalo Harbor no more because of Ecosystem changes including lower water,warmer water and aquatic invaders.But they are spawning somewhere or the 50" + muskies to 35 " muskies we do catch under the right wind induced water temp periods would not be there to catch,I marked 100's of big muskies in one period of cold wind induced water temp the middle of November this year,15 big muskies were caught in 4 days until water temp went from 45 degrees back up to 49 degrees,then it was a dead sea.With only the Canadian Waters being open those fish get hit over and over agian for lots of added stress,that fishing should be spread out accross the Whole Niagara Fishery or All of NY State with a Dec 15th Closing Date for All NY State Muskie Waters--Inland & Great Lakes! Edited by LarryJones 2/26/2013 10:47 AM | ||
| Guest |
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| The reason that very few guys still fish the harbour, is because the fishery has been almost completely destroyed. Larry, I have seen posts from you before claiming that you think the harbour should be made closed season for a few years, to hopefully allow the fishery to rebound. Yet, you are out there every day late season, fishing it, and posting daily on your results. The results are not good, but the odd time you do catch a decent one, and make sure everyone heats about it. Do you really think thats good for a fishery in a fragile state. And when exactly were there 15 Musky caught in a few days between 2 boats? ( or was it 3, because you have conflicting numbers in this thread) . Funny, I never heard mention of all these fish, even though you post your catches ( and everyone elses if you are lucky enough to hear about them ) Fact is, the fish arent showing up in the harbour in any numbers, regardless of water temps. An extended season will not change this. Sorry, but the heyday is long over. The NMA and yourself post way to specific info that can be harmful to the fishery. The river isnt much better, and is slowly recovering as well. Encouraging pressure in specific areas isnt going to help. I figured you of all people might understand that, because you watched the harbour get destroyed. I actually hope the season gets extended, because the pressure on one small Canadian section of river is ridiculous. Would be nice for people to figure out some things for themselves, instead if going on a forum to find out what you ate for breakfast. | |||
| Ronix |
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Posts: 983 | Guest you sound obnoxious. Do you really think the harbor fishery is really so "fragile" and "destroyed?" It's a Great Lake, muskie have more water than just the buffalo harbor and a few spots on the upper to swim in but because people keep pounding the south gap year after year after year with little to no results all of the sudden the conclusion is that the fishery is dead or fragile...maybe the fish are in the 99.99999999% of the other water people neglect because they once caught big fish in 1995 there. Larry's posts aren't doing anything to hurt the fishery, if he is drawing more attention to the harbor then so be it, do you think the DEC is going to care and waste funding on a resource that no one uses or talks about? | ||
| LarryJones |
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Posts: 1247 Location: On the Niagara River in Buffalo, NY | You right in one thing the big muskies do not come to the Harbor anymore , but they do show up out infront in the open lake under the right cool water conditions.The fishing pressure needs to be across the whole fishery in the 15 days of December , not just one section of water on the Canadian side.Most Great Lakes Fisheries are not what they were 15 years ago, they all have taken a hit to vhs and invasive species.If fishing for 15 more days in December is going to destroy the fishery then maybe they should close it down all together.I'm a muskie fishermen, I like other Muskie fishermen fish to catch & release that one big muskie of a lifetime, it will only come from the colder waters of late Nov to early Dec here.Also if you know so much about me you would know I have done a lot to improve muskie fishing in NY, 8 years of raising funds for Chautauqua Bait Fish Fund.I''ve always been for habitat improvements, stocking efforts for both the river and harbor, but where do the politians do the habitat building way up in the Union canal.Even if you stocked that area with muskie fingerlings there is no forage base for them to flourish, Muskies have not gone there to spawn on there own.Most places in the Buffalo Harbor where Muskies use to spawn the water level is down almost 3ft and silted in.They are still spawning somewhere else on Lake Erie or there would not be the class of fish that still show in the lake under the right water Conditions .As for the NMA I was one of 6 fishermen that sitdown in a bar together and started the club, I was the first Vice Pres., the NMA has done a lot for the Niagara Muskie Fishery. Edited by LarryJones 2/27/2013 7:12 AM | ||
| bryantukkah |
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Posts: 295 | Why are we even talking about the buffalo harbor?? This has to do with the rest of the great lakes in NY bringing the season back to the nov. 30th date that already exists in Lake Erie. Are we fighting against a shorter season there or fighting for a longer season here???? Do we really think the dec is going to not only scrap this idea but come up with another opposite one at the same time? Maybe I'm crazy but it seems to me like everything this state does it screws up to no end. On a side note... I will side with the guest here Larry. It really wasn't that long ago when you were lobbying for closing down fishing to the entire buffalo harbor for like five years because the fishery was declining..... And now you're the only one there all November. Was it two or three boats? Fifteen fish? Depends on the day of the week I guess..... But hey I've heard you will give a guy on shore a bottle of expensive scotch to release a huge fish.... That was you wasn't it? Depends on who's within ear shot at the time I guess.... And for someone who is so worried about "pressure" you sure do one heck of a job helping people flock to your fishing spot. Lots of odd length fish out there too... 43, 45, 47, 49.... All fatty's. Sooner or later no one cares to listen anymore. There once was a story of a boy and a wolf. Edited by bryantukkah 2/27/2013 11:48 AM | ||
| LarryJones |
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Posts: 1247 Location: On the Niagara River in Buffalo, NY | It is all about evening out the fishing pressure on the whole fishery! If it is not a stress factor to have Lake Erie, Upper Niagara River in Canadian Waters Open along with All the Lower Niagara River to Dec 15th,then having all the waters open on both sides of the border open should be less stress on the whole fishery! I never gave someone on shore a bottle of scotch to release a big muskie,that was Josh Kentry. As far as boats flocking to my spots,I'm usually the only boat out,sometimes I see another boat or two on a weekend out in Lake Erie.The one period after 58 mph winds pushed cold water up again'st the outer walls on Nov 13th ,the sun came out and it was calm and in the 50's outside 8 boats showed on that Saturday Nov 17th ,2 out of state and 6 from the NMA.No one caught any fish on that bluebird East wind flat water day Nov 17th,because the water temp had already rose back up to 49 degrees from 45 degrees ,the gizzard shad schools had gone back out deep in Lake Erie,so had the muskies that were there. The Buffalo Harbor comes up because that is the sole reason that some others give for keeping all NY Waters Closed on Nov 30th,they are not looking at the stress of the whole fishery by only the fish in one side of the river getting all the pressure.The NYSDEC wants a Uniform Season across all of NY Great Lakes Waters,so does All NY Great Lakes Waters Closing Nov 30th & All Canadian Waters Closing Dec 15th make sense or does All Great Lakes Waters NY & Canada Closing on Dec 15th make sense?The Canadians are not going back to Nov 30th.So lets shutdown Trophy Muskie Fishing through out the rest of NY Great Lakes Waters to protect muskies that never come inside the Harbor Walls anymore! Edited by LarryJones 2/27/2013 12:27 PM | ||
| Musky Mo |
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| Larry: I'm not too sure what the DEC wants. Maybe we'll find out next week. My guess is that they might be satisfied leaving things just the way they are. I also think that the only reason closing dates have become an issue is because they've been petitioned by Muskies Inc to extend the season in the upper river and Lake Erie to Dec. 15. I do know that the NMA board has not pressured the DEC one way or the other (so please don't say that we have). Also, we have no interest in shortening the season in the St. Lawrence or elsewhere. It's my personal opinion that the upper river and Buffalo Harbor are small urban fisheries with easy access to a metro area of more than 1 million (probably a few hundred musky anglers in that million). Due to its small size and easy access it's much more vulnerable to fishing pressure than vast fisheries such as the St. Lawrence, Georgian Bay, or even St. Clair (which is also much more prolific). Accordingly, it should be managed more conservatively than larger, more remote, and healthier fisheries. That means shorter seasons. It's just stuped to have the same regulation for fisheries as different in size, health, and quality as the St. Lawrence and the Niagara/Buffalo Harbor. The NYDEC knows that. Apparently the OMNR does not. I say lets not follow a stuped management philosophy. Also, the NY water of the upper are only beginning to recover from a period of decline. Decent numbers, but mostly immature fish. The harbor is on life support (but if it's as good as some seem to suggest, then there is no need to extend the season). Neither the upper nor the harbor will benefit from increasing fishing pressure. They're both still in recovery mode. | |||
| LarryJones |
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Posts: 1247 Location: On the Niagara River in Buffalo, NY | Tony,Putting all the muskie fishing pressure on one spot on the Candian side is not good for the whole fishery.The fishing pressure for the 15 days of December needs to be spread across the whole fishery,both NY & Canadian Waters.Lets be honest here,fishing the 15 days of cooler water of December are not going to destroy the fishery.If the fishery is that fragile then why are you not trying to take the 15 days off the fragile start of 3rd Saturday in June.The reason why we fish is to catch the biggest muskie of your life,that will only happen in late November if your lucky and December if you had the chance.Out of all of the late days of November and the 15 days of December you may be lucky to get on the water a few days due to high winds,brown water or snow that can happen then,just do not see where all this extra pressure would be you keep talking about.Muskies Inc. never asked the NSDEC for an extension of Inland or Great Lakes Seasons until we were asked by the NSDEC for our imput on season changes back in October.What did we do we called the NMA and told them the NSDEC was looking for Imput.Our membership of NY M.I. Chapter 69 voted for Dec 15th and I was a no vote because at the end of this what ever is decided Nov 30th or Dec 15th by the fishermen I must take to the Erie County FAB & Federation,the NMA has had since October and here we are with a meeting on March 5th where hopefully we will find out.I have not lied here,I said the majority of the NMA Board was for Nov 30th and that the Membership is split on the decision,no vote was taken other then a hand written pole at one meeting showing most wanted Dec 15th.Every conservation effort the NMA has ever done I have supported in the past,even as a past Vice Pres. and Founding Member,but I can't agree on this one! I will be gone to Albany tomarrow to march for our 2nd Amendment again'st the NY Safe Act(Prince Coumo Gun Band),so I'll look back here when I return. | ||
| Musky Mo |
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| Larry: I also don't believe that extending the season in NY waters will relieve the pressure on the Triangle. The triangle gets pounded all season, although there's lots of other water to fish. Too many guys only have confidence fishing that one small area. Also, there's about ten more miles of river in Ontario, but all the pressure in the extended season was in one little area. Anyone who knows the river as well as you do should know that opening NY waters wouldn't change that much. If Ontario understood this fishery, they would know why all the pressure is in one small area and would close their side of the river on November 30. But they don't even try to understand the river's musky fishery, and consider it only as an afterthought. They have other and greater musky fisheries to manage. This small ecologically challenged fishery is really only a concern to us local anglers. I think we should be mindful of its limitations and vulnerabilities. Tony | |||
| niaontario |
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| Actually Tony, I feel that it is "us Canadians" that have the only firm grip on the Niagara fishery. We know enough to keep our mouths shut when we are catching fish throughout our waters. We know enough to keep our mouths shut when we are doing well on our shores of lake Erie. We know there are fish from Navy Island to the mouth of the river and we have no problem with the members of the nma only fishing Frenchmans creek. As a former member of your club I've seen how your catch data exploits certain areas. As long as your data comes from one place all of your members will fish one place, leaving plenty of water and unpressured fish to us uneducated Canadians so we can continue to destroy our fishery in December when the fish swim right away when released. Go ahead, protect your polluted waters from evil December fisherman, there's no reason I'd buy a NY lic to fish your factory discharge waters anyway. All the west river fish are dead, nothing to see here. | |||
| bryantukkah |
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Posts: 295 | niaontario - 2/27/2013 11:29 PM Actually Tony, I feel that it is "us Canadians" that have the only firm grip on the Niagara fishery. We know enough to keep our mouths shut when we are catching fish throughout our waters. We know enough to keep our mouths shut when we are doing well on our shores of lake Erie. We know there are fish from Navy Island to the mouth of the river and we have no problem with the members of the nma only fishing Frenchmans creek. As a former member of your club I've seen how your catch data exploits certain areas. As long as your data comes from one place all of your members will fish one place, leaving plenty of water and unpressured fish to us uneducated Canadians so we can continue to destroy our fishery in December when the fish swim right away when released. Go ahead, protect your polluted waters from evil December fisherman, there's no reason I'd buy a NY lic to fish your factory discharge waters anyway. All the west river fish are dead, nothing to see here. Don't care. | ||
| Musky Mo |
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| Niaontario: Yeah, I probably deserved that. But my criticism wasn't with Canadian anglers, but the OMNR, who I believe have always been behind the NYDEC in regards to the Niagara River. All you have to do is look at current and historical regulations - creel limits, size limits, seasons. NY has always been more conservative - which I think is best for the musky, and in the long-term better for the musky fisherman. And New York has done way more habitat improvement projects (many millions of dollars expended)- many of which benefit Canadian waters and Canadian fishermen. I don't believe that Ontario has done anything (habitat improvement) to help the fishery. But maybe they don't think it's necessary. And I hope the west river is as productive as you say it is. My experience is that it is not anything close to what it was before the "big crash". But thank you for opening up. And please understand that we have never tried to stop your extended season and I hope you continue to have December success (I just prefer that it isn't brought to the NY section for a host of reasons). In regards to "keeping our mouths" shut, the Niagara has been heavily fished for almost a hundred years. "Frenchman's", "the triangle", "the shipyards", "staleys", etc. have been well known spots for almost as long. There haven't been any secrets. We haven't told anybody anything that wasn't already well-known. These locations were well known in the 1970s. It's a heavily fished urban fishery - a place where it's hard to hide. In such an environment, silence does not help the fishery. We can only help the fishery by working together. We can only work together by speaking with each other and sharing information. That's how we made the Buffalo Harbor and upper river almost exclusively a "catch and release" fishery (Canadian waters still have size limits allowing a greater degree of harvest). Speaking and sharing information is also how we sold total catch and release. Otherwise the fishery would have been left on its own to deal with all the destructive changes in the ecosystem with no help from anglers or agencies. But it's always a cost/benefit analysis (sharing info), and we believe that the benefits outweigh the costs. One last comment on December catch and release. Everyone seems to think that it's a panacea - no harm can be done to the muskellunge. But I've always believed (based upon things I've read and conversations with biologists) that injuries sustained by fish - cuts, bruises, abrasions, slime removal - do not heal nearly as quickly in cold water as in warm. Infections may spread faster and stay longer because the fish's metabolisms aren't as high as in the summer. Although the fish may swim away quickly and strongly, if it was otherwise injured, it may not survive. Am I wrong in this understanding? I'd like to know if anyone has any info on this subject. I actually try to stay off of these web-sites for saying things I may regret, and I apologize if my comments have offended anyone. Tony | |||
| Ronix |
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Posts: 983 | Tony, Nice post and well said. I can't imagine that there are a critical issues pertaining to habitat that the OMNR needs to address though...if you look at the canadian side and then the american side its like they are two completely different rivers...you can see why NYS pumped millions into restoration | ||
| HUH?? |
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Ronix - 2/28/2013 3:15 PM Tony, Nice post and well said. I can't imagine that there are a critical issues pertaining to habitat that the OMNR needs to address though...if you look at the canadian side and then the american side its like they are two completely different rivers...you can see why NYS pumped millions into restoration Whens the last time the US stocked the river? Im sure Canada did the last stocking in that river you fish. | |||
| Top H2O |
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Posts: 4080 Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | Millions of American Dollars were spent over the last 25 yrs. to clean up a very Polluted system in order to have cleaner water and better fish habitat. | ||
| niaontario |
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| The most damaging move to successful musky spawning on the Niagara was made by the NYDEC. Allowing thousands of anglers to fish your spawning grounds during your "trophy bass season" will prove to have more effect to your fishery than any December musky anglers. NYS should take a page from the OMNR and make these areas sanctuaries if your going to open other types of sport angling during the spawn on the spawning grounds. Spawning with a rattle trap or bass tube pinning your mouth closed must be stressful. Don't kid yourself, since NY started allowing bass fishing in May and early June I've heard hundreds from early season anglers getting bit off by muskies right in their known spawning areas. As far as sharing information.... As long as your catch data shows all the fish are caught from one spot, all of your club members will fish one spot. The NMA should work on teaching its members to explore new water and learn a thing or two for themselves out there. What you have created is a bunch of dependent newcomers that will always rely on being spoonfed information and never be able to adapt on there own to changes in the fishery. Best of luck protecting your fishery (that no one fishes because they are all in one spot on our side all season) from the dreaded December catch and release anglers. | |||
| Niaontario |
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| You may be right about that bass fishing. But I don't think that's a fight we can win. It's like trying to shut the season down in August. It's not going to happen. Too many social/economic issues. Also, most of the successful spawning in the Niagara, based upon YOY studies, is in the NY portion. Ontario has only a couple areas of good spawning habitat. You're also right about trying to get guys to explore more and try other tactics. We do and have always done that. Some do and some don't. I don't like using the "your side" "our side" terminology. The fish don't know and don't care and neither should we. But overall, I think the NY portion is a healthier population, especially when it comes to recruitment. There's a lot of fish and habitat the entire length. But most of the largest fish generally do come from that one small area on your side - although I think they are heavily dependent upon and recruited from the habitat on "our side" - the Strawberry Island/Motor Island archipelago. So I think we need to work together. Or not. For the past hundred years the muskies have found a way to survive. So I think they'll survive us. Don't think that you're such a dreaded rebel because you fish in December. Most musky anglers probably agree with you, so you're actually quite mainstream and I'm probably just a dinasaur. Trying to keep a November 30 closure is bucking the current standard. But I think that there are circumstances unique to the NY side which make it appropriate. In the meantime, continue to enjoy the wonderful west river (it truly is a special place to fish for muskies). Tony | |||
| bryantukkah |
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Posts: 295 | HUH?? - 2/28/2013 9:13 PM Ronix - 2/28/2013 3:15 PM Tony, Nice post and well said. I can't imagine that there are a critical issues pertaining to habitat that the OMNR needs to address though...if you look at the canadian side and then the american side its like they are two completely different rivers...you can see why NYS pumped millions into restoration Whens the last time the US stocked the river? Im sure Canada did the last stocking in that river you fish. Huhh? is right.... This isn't a stocked fishery here pal. Great Lakes. Natural reproduction. Stocking is not necessary or relevant. Seasons actually matter. And btw I believe nysdec did at one point stock chautauqa fish here, omnr knows better. | ||
| Guest |
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| According to Kapuscinski, K.L., et al., Trends in muskellunge population and fishery characteristics in Buffalo Harbor (Lake Erie) and the Niagara River, J Great Lakes Res (2013), the NYSDEC stocked the Niagara River from 1941 to 1955 (with the exceptions of '45, '46, '51 and 54') with Chautauqua Fry. The OMNR stocked from 1960 to 1974 (except for '66) with Stoney Lake musky fingerlings. | |||
| LarryJones |
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Posts: 1247 Location: On the Niagara River in Buffalo, NY | Also add in that the fishery must not be in total colspse if the NMA can have Tournaments in Lake Erie & Upper Niagara River in November and Lower Niagara River in December.But the 15 days of December is going to be too stressful on Muskies in cooler water condions.Everyone knows that the colder waters of late fall is the less stressful time of the whole year to release Muskies.That colder water holds more oxygen and fish recover faster.The issue is spread the fishing out through the whole fishery in the 15 days of December or continue stressing one area of Canadian water only.Like said before even if all waters were open till Dec 15th some years the weather brings high winds , brown water and snowed in launches, so some years you can't even get on the water most if not all of those days. Extra pressure on the fishery by giving all fishermen a chance to fish across the whole fishery for 15 days in Dec , just don't believe it will hurt the fishery , but may relieve a little stress on one section of Canadian water.It is ok to fish the Lower Niagara River on both sides and many NMA members fish there in December, I do not see that fishery being any different then the rest of the Niagara Fishery, no complaints about fishing there from the same people saying the Upper can't handle 15 days of more even fishing pressure across the whole fishery. Edited by LarryJones 3/1/2013 6:10 AM | ||
| Ronix |
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Posts: 983 | Bryan and HUH I was referring to the shoreline development, habitat degradation, urbanization, and pollution of the US side compared to Canada. Not sure where you guys got stocking out of that but ok. Edited by Ronix 3/1/2013 7:03 AM | ||
| LarryJones |
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Posts: 1247 Location: On the Niagara River in Buffalo, NY | I'm sure I will not make many friends saying this,but it needs to be said!One other Event that will add more stress to the Upper Niagar River Muskies then the 15 days of December ever would,is the NMA Northern Pike Tournament in MAY! Having a Northern Pike Tournament in May when Pure-Bread Muskies are either spawning,getting ready to spawn or post spawn,could put more pressure on the Muskie Fishery then any other time.Where is the Stress guy's,Opening Week Post Spawn,High water temps of August or May Northern Pike Tournament on Muskie Spawning grounds,I surely do not think it is the 15 Days of December! Edited by LarryJones 3/1/2013 7:39 AM | ||
| 2112 |
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| What frustrates me is that the local forums here in Niagara create added pressure by posting catches, times, locations, 10 fish days etc. for all to hear. Not only that, the NMA posts requests to its members to come to the Canadian side and fish in our small areas (smaller than sections of the Niagara river). This section is a few acres at best, and now a throng of muskie anglers are made privy to it. We once were able to fish this area in peace, and now there are more and more boats every year. It is quite simple in many respects. Do not post about catching fish in places that are already struggling. Period. Many NMA posts are available for all to see (some not because of membership). | |||
| Larry Ramsell |
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Posts: 1291 Location: Hayward, Wisconsin | Musky Mo (Tony) wrote: "One last comment on December catch and release. Everyone seems to think that it's a panacea - no harm can be done to the muskellunge. But I've always believed (based upon things I've read and conversations with biologists) that injuries sustained by fish - cuts, bruises, abrasions, slime removal - do not heal nearly as quickly in cold water as in warm. Infections may spread faster and stay longer because the fish's metabolisms aren't as high as in the summer. Although the fish may swim away quickly and strongly, if it was otherwise injured, it may not survive. Am I wrong in this understanding? I'd like to know if anyone has any info on this subject." LR: Tony, common sense should tell you that "infections" won't spread faster in the colder water...come on. If anything, should there be cuts (unlikely, but not impossible), it is far less likely infection would set in as it does in the warm water part of the season. I personally believe you are crying wolf just because you have an agenda and not based on facts. Protect those fish at the start of the season when they really need it and don't worry about a few extra days in the coldest part of the season which isn't doing any harm to the fishery...time to get the real priorities straight and stop beating a dead horse! | ||
| Ja Rule |
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Posts: 415 | 2112 - 3/1/2013 7:45 AM We once were able to fish this area in peace, and now there are more and more boats every year. This is happening everywhere muskies are located. It is not just the Niagara River. Edited by Ja Rule 3/1/2013 9:38 AM | ||
| tcbetka |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | Interesting thread. I guess I can see the point(s) of both sides of the discussion, and I certainly have no dog in the hunt. However I would say that as someone with a fair amount of training in the sciences (including fisheries biology), I really can't see that an extra two weeks would impose much more stress or harm to the population there. I think Larry Ramsell is correct in noting that the spread of a potential infection would be slower in colder temperatures--and although I haven't formally researched it, my suspicion is that the bacterial load in colder water is significantly lower than in warmer water. Part of this is due to the relative biological activity in warmer water (faster) than colder water (slower). This is the basic "Q10" rule that states that the biological activity essentially doubles with a 10C-degree (18F) increase in temperature. Here is a link with a bit of summary on that: http://www.lakeaccess.org/russ/temperature.htm I think the other thing to consider here is the capability of the fish to withstand the stress of the angling/catch event. In terms of angling-associated mortality, I don't think there's ever been a real decisive explanation for why that occurs. Certainly there have been significant abnormalities noted in fish that die in response to an angling exposure--potassium increases dramatically, and glucose decreases. This is an expected response to stress however, as (from the research that I've read) all angled fish seem to experience it to some degree. However for whatever reason the fish that succumb to the catch, at least the ones in the studies I've read, seem to be unable to maintain homeostasis, and thus die. I have a few theories on that based on my training in human medicine, but those are beyond the scope of this thread. I would like to add this much though: These extra two proposed weeks of fishing (in December) are almost certainly going to be at the lowest water temperatures of the Fall...if not the entire season. Thus at the very least the fish, being poikilothermic, are going to have the slowest metabolic rates of the season--at a time when the water temperature dictates that dissolved oxygen levels will be highest. Given the Q10 rule-of-thumb, it seems reasonable to assume that bacterial loads will be lowest at this time as well. And finally, since the fish have been feeding throughout the Summer and into the Fall, their overall health and thus their immunologic response to potential infectious agents, will be greatest. So in other words, they will very likely fight the least (and exert the least amount of energy) at a time when their aquatic environment is most favorable for their recovery. Look, these fish are a resource. Many good points have been made in this thread--and there are viable concerns on both sides of the debate. Any fish exposure to angling/catch events will pose *some* threat to the fish. There's no way around it! However the relative paucity of anglers in these two weeks (compared to early season, when the conditions are more favorable and enjoyable to the masses) I think will indeed reduce the overall impact on the fishery. Finally, I will be the first one to admit that I am not an expert in that fishery out there. However I really do not see how any significant harm will be done in those two weeks. I agree with the poster that brought up the early season bass fishing in the spawning grounds. Wasn't it only a year or two ago that a bass angler caught a 60" musky before the musky season opened, and then dove down about 20 feet to recover the fish when it essentially tried to die at the bottom? These fish are being caught on lighter tackle in the Spring--it happens here in Green Bay too! Our fish LOVE 5-6" stick baits at that time of the year, and some of the largest fish caught in the system are caught by walleye and bass guys, before the musky season opens. So if you REALLY want to get serious about protecting the muskies, then THAT is what you need to address first, in my humble opinion. Work to limit the angling exposure imposed on these fish by large numbers of anglers fishing with light tackle (long fight times), who are ill-equipped to deal with the release of such large fish. It is absolutely ludicrous to say that the potential risk imposed on the muskellunge population by these non-musky anglers is over-shadowed by a relatively few number of anglers who are equipped with heavy tackle, large nets, adequate release tools and (for the most part) significant experience handling large fish! So my vote is this/these: 1) Delay the season opening, or (at least) declare muskellunge spawning grounds as sanctuaries and protect them accordingly. 2) Increase the minimum size limit to at least 54" for harvesting a musky, if that is what Canada does for its neighboring waters. 3) Standardize the season across that ecosystem. Again why not do what Canada does, as they seem to be pretty good at producing large fish! 4) Push the system-wide season closing back to December 15th, if that's what the majority of the anglers want. Again, these fish are resources. If you really don't want *any* exposure on the fishery, then close it to angling altogether. But until then, how much extra risk will there be to fish another two weeks? 5) Work with late-season anglers to obtain accurate and complete creel-census data on this fishery. In other words, make the anglers work WITH the biologists to better understand the population. These guys are a tremendous resource, for the most part--because they wouldn't be out there freezing their gonads off, if they didn't care about the fishery. Sorry for the long diatribe, but I really can't understand why this is such a debated topic. This isn't rocket science, and it seems pretty straightforward to me. Edited by tcbetka 3/1/2013 10:31 AM | ||
| LarryJones |
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Posts: 1247 Location: On the Niagara River in Buffalo, NY | Tom,The NMA has Angler Diary Study Info and Member Catch & Release Data from 1994 till now. The trouble is that in the 90's there were up to as many as 40 boats on the water on November weekends in Lake Erie,now there are less then 3 average most weekends in November and it has been that way the last 10 years,so it is easy to show a very big decline in numbers of muskies caught with that kind of angling hours put in,small, used on a chart along with numbers of boats and anglers of years past.Does not show the true numbers of muskies present in the system today. Edited by LarryJones 3/1/2013 1:22 PM | ||
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