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Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Here is an article along the lines of what Sled mentions for mapping.
http://www.forciersguideservice.com/pages/posts/map-madness3.php
Although good for making stuctures "pop" out on a map again not a required exercise when targetting suspended fish on a smaller lake. It really is as simple as covering water and having confidence the fish are there. If you have to try and find a reason that fish was in 65' of water so be it as long as it gives you the confidence to stay out there.
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Location: minocqua, wi. | CiscoKid - 6/18/2012 12:26 PM
Here is an article along the lines of what Sled mentions for mapping.
http://www.forciersguideservice.com/pages/posts/map-madness3.php
Although good for making stuctures "pop" out on a map again not a required exercise when targetting suspended fish on a smaller lake. It really is as simple as covering water and having confidence the fish are there. If you have to try and find a reason that fish was in 65' of water so be it as long as it gives you the confidence to stay out there.
i agree with you on the small lakes but personally wouldn't choose a suspended pattern there (especially meso edit: unless it's the fall sucker bite --- then it's money:/ ... at least in '05-'07 unless they changed that ... God i hate sucker fishing) if there is a good defined deep weed-edge. if i want to find a big fish on those lakes at least in my experience she'd relate to that. finding them in the bigger lakes (vilas/oneida county ...) start making your list and you can probably figure out some of the spots (hint: if you fish at night watch out for row-trollers).
but, what the he!! do i know i play golf and fish smallies ...
i do know that if i were going to plan to musky fish, i'd have a plan for what i'm doing and expect to contact fish and if i didn't i'd be outfished by people who do. that's the way it usually happens anyway.
contacting fish is one thing ... catching them is another. if you're not contacting fish then you need to scratch your head and quite literally go back to the drawing board.
Edited by jonnysled 6/18/2012 12:57 PM
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| Rick Clunn once said in regards to bass fishing...fish the stuff that looks like junk..stuff other people will avoid. Secondary spots or subtleties in structure are where the goliaths live. |
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Location: Uxbridge Ontario | CiscoKid - 6/18/2012 1:26 AM
Here is an article along the lines of what Sled mentions for mapping.
http://www.forciersguideservice.com/pages/posts/map-madness3.php
Although good for making stuctures "pop" out on a map again not a required exercise when targetting suspended fish on a smaller lake. It really is as simple as covering water and having confidence the fish are there. If you have to try and find a reason that fish was in 65' of water so be it as long as it gives you the confidence to stay out there.
Great article.
Sled, thats for the insight into key deep structure identification. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | just looked at the link ... what i've learned is lines and not common-depth shading, but we're talking about deep-water fishing, right? ... that view looks confusing to me with it shaded and filling in the whole lake with color-code??. what i'm talking about there may be 4 humps, 7 points, 3 islands and 5 saddles that relate to the deepest water on the lake/system. identifying them and connecting the dots looking for subtlety between them is what i'm talking about.
... as an example, if you fish lake minocqua the basin connects to the point on fishers, the point on clumbs, clumbs bar itself, two boathouse point and a few deeper weed edges that you will have to look for to find etc... and ties them together for some logical drifts for casting open water. the fish that may be on the tip of one point will travel to the other and find something in-between to use as a path. i wouldn't work anything near stacks bay in this example so the mapping there would be blank |
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Location: Oconto Falls, WI | jonnysled - 6/18/2012 10:18 PM
just looked at the link ... what i've learned is lines and not common-depth shading, but we're talking about deep-water fishing, right? ... that view looks confusing to me with it shaded and filling in the whole lake with color-code??. what i'm talking about there may be 4 humps, 7 points, 3 islands and 5 saddles that relate to the deepest water on the lake/system. identifying them and connecting the dots looking for subtlety between them is what i'm talking about.
... as an example, if you fish lake minocqua the basin connects to the point on fishers, the point on clumbs, clumbs bar itself, two boathouse point and a few deeper weed edges that you will have to look for to find etc... and ties them together for some logical drifts for casting open water. the fish that may be on the tip of one point will travel to the other and find something in-between to use as a path. i wouldn't work anything near stacks bay in this example so the mapping there would be blank
Sled you have a one-track mind. The article was meant to be an example, and anyone can apply it to their scenario as they see fit. When I use to take the time to do it I started with the deep water, and left all the shallow water uncolored.
In my opinion looking for subleties in 60' of water is foolish, and means you are just grasping at straws. Anyone that has done any amount of suspended fishing knows the fish will be out there not relating to anything, and that finidning that tiny little 2' "bump" on the bottom in 60' isn't the spot on the spot in the basin.
Part of fishing suspended is keeping an open mind. Don't try to make preconceived notions of where the fish will be. Sure it will work some of the time, but other times there will be fish where you would have never guessed them to be. If you just limit yourself to fishing little subtleties and between structures of course you will never catch anythign away from them as you will never have fished them.
Sled you sure have a lot of info about fishing suspended for a guy that thinks it is a waste of time. 
Edit: I love this example of a lake when talking fishing suspended. Immediately what pops out is the line of humps running North-South. You bet you will catch fish on and between them. Sled would have you thinking this is one of the spots you should concentrate your efforts on. However, the magenta colored water is what would be considered true suspended fishing, and where Sled would be telling you not to waste your time based on his previous responses. I can tell you for certain that you will miss out on a lot of suspended fish by ignoring the magenta water. You bet the map don’t indicate where you should fish. Neither does your graph if you drive all over that basin. However drift it and you will catch fish.
Edited by CiscoKid 6/19/2012 7:13 AM
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Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Now take this lake for example. Sled based on your criteria where would you suggest to fish this lake for those wanting to tap into the deep water bite? Always best for those wanting to learn to be able to see examples.
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Location: minocqua, wi. | i see 2 holes 35' and 45' and two 25' humps out of 30' that would be the hub for the deep-water pieces ... i'd fish that north break-line and point on the island and start heading to the to the two connect the two 25' humps and the 30' hole and then cover the deep break off the shoreline point that ties to the smaller 25' hump looking for sand-grass on those humps ... the smaller features are more attractive to me than the longer, deeper hole. the longer hole and south shoreline are a bit non descript, but i'd go searching for cribs or anything that ties that outside edge to the shoreline and that subtle point.
or you could just go chukin' baits and hope something shows up i suppose ...
today i wouldn't do any of it cuz it's nasty outside ...
Edited by jonnysled 6/19/2012 8:04 AM
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Location: minocqua, wi. | not at all a waste of time ... it's money. how did you do on the opener travis? |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | @ Jon Bondy ... how would you approach similar structure? what are you looking for when out on the bigger water?? |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I have seen some very interesting behavior in the larger predators out in the abyss during the winter associated with fairly subtle deep structure. Started looking for structures out there in the deepest water on the lake, and it paid off nicely last couple winters.
The camera showed me the association to smaller structure elements was not the structure itself, but the other critters using it. Deepest waters we fish in the winter are 35 to 40', as we don't ice fish any waters with more depth. |
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Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | That contour point off the west side of the island is a no brainer so good call. However perhaps I set you up knowing you would concentrate on those little humps in the deep, and look for sandgrass. Quite frankly there are a lot of lakes that do not contain sandgrass, and thus I have a problem with using that as a crutch when trying to tell someone where to start when targeting deep water. This lake is an example of one that does not really contain any sandgrass.
You have discounted a lot of water and have left very little water to fish, which isn’t bad I suppose if the water you are left with is the best water. Again maybe I set you up since I fish this water body and know where the fish are often caught, and *maybe* you don’t know the lake. However with your lack of fishing suspended water knowledge you left out a lot of the good water.
While trying to figure out a suspended pattern on a lake I will admit I will look for obvious structures, and try to tie them together like Sled suggests. However, I also look at what may look to be the really boring stuff. Why? Because that is often where you will find the true suspended fish. Lots of lakes will have true suspendos, and will also have those that relate or loosely relate to structure. The later being those that relate to humps, spines, and out from a breakline a bit. True suspendos are those that won’t be found near any structure, and make up a pretty dang big population on a lot of lakes. Lakes with pelagic fish are lakes that are great for the true suspenders as fish like cisco could care less about structure. Even lakes with perch/suckers will have a good population of true suspended fish but not to the extent of those containing pelagic baitfish. In the case of those lakes mud bottoms can become important. That’s where the bugs live that feed the food chain.
Highlighted are some of the areas of the previous lake I concentrate on fishing “deep”, and are proven. In some cases I will look at shoreline and mid lake structures, and visualize “triangles” of water that may produce. However what you cannot do is discount water outside that triangle. I show these triangles in red.
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Location: Oconto Falls, WI | sworrall - 6/19/2012 8:20 AM
I have seen some very interesting behavior in the larger predators out in the abyss during the winter associated with fairly subtle deep structure. Started looking for structures out there in the deepest water on the lake, and it paid off nicely last couple winters.
The camera showed me the association to smaller structure elements was not the structure itself, but the other critters using it. Deepest waters we fish in the winter are 35 to 40', as we don't ice fish any waters with more depth.
Steve I don’t doubt it that eventually you will see something if you target subtleties all the time. Did you spend an equal amount of time in the wide open with no subtleties around to compare your results to? |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | a predator would try to hold on a rock you could carry in your hand ... |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | We drill a ton of holes all over the area and look at each top to bottom when we begin searching for fish. One lake we fish has big crappies and gills that move around in 35', stay to the bottom during high light, and appear as soon as the sun hits the trees. On one lake we fished last winter the drop between 32 and 35, which was a visible shelf, held the most gamefish the two times we fished it. Sled knows that lake, he sent me there. There was very little activity shallower or deeper, and weirdly, the rock bass went nuts when the sun set way out there in the deeps. There were weird 'holes' all over in the sand and gravel we couldn't figure out.
We deploy at least 4 underwater cameras and record while fishing, so if something stops by to check out the tip up offering or cruises the area, we'll usually see it.
Short answer is yes, we did. And we are not 'targeting subtleties' as such, we are looking for fish, and if they are in the area, the Aqua-Vu Micro we use for the search will see them.
If there's sand grass or other bottom vegetation in the area and there can be in 35', what's important is what portion of that cover the pannies...especially the little ones, are sitting in during the higher light, and the 'why' of what's holding them there. It's amazing watching them rise out of that stuff when the light goes down, and the number of Esox we see cruising the area as soon as they do. The Muskies are especially drawn to a full size Aqua-Vu camera, it's bluegill shaped and colored.
If it's too dark for photosynthesis, there are usually no fish in that part of the water column anyway.
Keep in mind, this is under the ice, so some behaviors might be different than in the soft water times of the year when thermoclines, algae, etc. come into play.
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Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | OK now we are getting somewhere. My question is how did you find that 3’ shelf you said was so good? I believe by drilling lots of holes, and covering water right? The map didn’t show you it was there did it?
My point being this. Initially you have to go out and cover water. By covering water you locate fish. Through years of this you learn the deep waters areas that tend to hold fish most consistently, and those that are hit or miss. You are not going to put your boat on the 3’ break and try to follow it and try and catch muskies. Not unless you have a pinpoint. Besides being on that break is useless unless you are jigging, and thus you want to be off of it. If off of it how do you cast to it, unless you map that baby out as Painter/Nelson wrote an article on. Through experience, and knowing where you tend to typically contact fish, you can set-up drifts to cover that water. One you make sure you cover that break, but also the water surrounding it as the fish will not stayed glued to it.
For a beginner first trying to tap into suspended fishing you need to learn the water…the deep water. Best way to do that is to just fish it. Driving around mapping it only gives you half the story.
Edit: As Steve added more while I was typing my response. As Steve clearly points out there were "wierd" holes all over. How do you efficiently fish those areas for musky? You cast them and cover water as you don't know how many of those "holes" are throughout the lake. I don't think anyone plans to cover all the water on a lake with a camera scoping out the bottom subtleties to determine where they should best spend their time fishing suspended. That's like driving around looking for baitfish to fish, but a bit more absurd.
The camera example actually would lend itself more to why we should vertical jig an area rather than cast it.
Edited by CiscoKid 6/19/2012 12:09 PM
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Location: minocqua, wi. | you're starting to get it grasshopper ...
read bondy's response about a zillion times. it boils down the rubbish we're all trying to say. steve shows it on video. ambush fish hold - go - hold - go.
find the hold.
wish i could find the cartoon of the predator (i think it's a lion) ... trying to hide behind a blade of grass.
i know a couple of dummies that will spend 80% of their time mapping a lake and then fish 20% of the time they have ... you know em too. lol |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | question ...
do you use your electronics? how??
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Location: Oconto Falls, WI | jonnysled - 6/19/2012 12:06 PM
question ...
do you use your electronics? how??
Yep, so I don't run aground!
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | The holes were only about a foot or so across and maybe 3 to 5" deep, really weird, and there were LOTS of them. Out in 32' of water I couldn't come up with anything that would make those holes, but there they were. |
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Location: Oconto Falls, WI | jonnysled - 6/19/2012 12:03 PM
you're starting to get it grasshopper ...
read bondy's response about a zillion times. it boils down the rubbish we're all trying to say. steve shows it on video. ambush fish hold - go - hold - go.
find the hold.
wish i could find the cartoon of the predator (i think it's a lion) ... trying to hide behind a blade of grass.
i know a couple of dummies that will spend 80% of their time mapping a lake and then fish 20% of the time they have ... you know em too. lol
Hold-go-hold-go. You only concentrate on the hold, I am talking about concentrating on both the hold and go. These fish are not just sitting out "there" holding to something until a little morsal swims along. Besides what good is that 3' ledge 40' below the fish? Muskies are not following the ledge even when they are suspended way above it. Sur they may follow it when near bottom as then they are looking to feed on what is following it as well, but then we are not necessarily talking about suspended fishing. Now we are talking deep structure fishing. |
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Location: Oconto Falls, WI | sworrall - 6/19/2012 12:13 PM
The holes were only about a foot or so across and maybe 3 to 5" deep, really weird, and there were LOTS of them. Out in 32' of water I couldn't come up with anything that would make those holes, but there they were.
Springs! or gas pockets.
So there were lots of them, and I venture to guess covered a pretty big area? Again you drift that baby covering water as there are too many to just concentrate on one or two. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | CiscoKid - 6/19/2012 12:14 PM
Hold-go-hold-go. You only concentrate on the hold, I am talking about concentrating on both the hold and go. .
read Travis ...
the mapping connects the dots. fish the map you build ... use your electronics to build it and continually update the detail as you add experiences. understand the why ... and you will find the where.
or just try to pirate the chip and bounce to all the skull and crossbones
God i wish i had more of that data ... |
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Location: Black Creek, WI | Good Discussion. I wrote the article Travis referenced long before GPS Mapping chips..... but its still a good exercise for the brain. Also, the intent of that article was to open poeples eyes to more subtle structures often overlooked by the masses.... and especially those DEEPER structures. I did a lot of suspended fishing in the 90's... but my return on the investment in regard to BIG fish was just not what I wanted. No doubt it is a great technique for catching QUALITY fish, but if you are targeting the biggest fish in the lake... I just don't think fishing the basin puts the odds in your favor for making contact with that fish. Keep that in mind when deciding whether you want to tackle the basin or not. |
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Location: Oconto Falls, WI | jonnysled - 6/19/2012 12:21 PM
CiscoKid - 6/19/2012 12:14 PM
Hold-go-hold-go. You only concentrate on the hold, I am talking about concentrating on both the hold and go. .
read Travis ...
the mapping connects the dots. fish the map you build ... use your electronics to build it and continually update the detail as you add experiences. understand the why ... and you will find the where.
or just try to pirate the chip and bounce to all the skull and crossbones
God i wish i had more of that data ...
Mapping works in some instances, and others it is not needed. I must ask how much time do you fish suspended, and how much time do you spend in 30+ feet of water fishing structure? |
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Location: Oconto Falls, WI | jlong - 6/19/2012 12:25 PM
Good Discussion. I wrote the article Travis referenced long before GPS Mapping chips..... but its still a good exercise for the brain. Also, the intent of that article was to open poeples eyes to more subtle structures often overlooked by the masses.... and especially those DEEPER structures. I did a lot of suspended fishing in the 90's... but my return on the investment in regard to BIG fish was just not what I wanted. No doubt it is a great technique for catching QUALITY fish, but if you are targeting the biggest fish in the lake... I just don't think fishing the basin puts the odds in your favor for making contact with that fish. Keep that in mind when deciding whether you want to tackle the basin or not.
Ooooh a mood buster! LOL! I ask J, didn't you see a very large fish in the basin one year during the WMT? Also don't you have one of your largest boated in WI in the Basin?
Besides the question asked wasn't where is it better to fish, basin or shallow structure, but how to do it. I know you must have some to add J? |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | most of the time.
depends on where the fish are though ... post frontal i tend to crawl up into the slop. each lake is different. from the bassin' background of my past oxygen, water-temp., cover and food. 80% of the fish live in 20% of the water and eat 10% of the time and there is usually a reason a fish is where it is or moving from where it was to where it's going.
do you approach the Canadian shield in the same way? |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | can you save old lowrance icons to the new HD units ;0)
on a lighter note ... we did it (i'll leave my partner's name out) and then i learned sitting at the Belle Isle how to do it systematically, then i learned more about the details data collection and storage up at AML. i'll have to say i had been more of a "feel" and "experience" guy but did fish a map in my mind tying everything together prior to ditching muskies for bass and ice focus. the more i've learned though on the other fishing (ice and bass), the more i've come back to the systematic approach of mapping and detail i learned through these guys who have i believe mastered the art. they systematically score and fish a virtual video game using electronics. it's not just the two you mention but a couple more ... too reliable to not consider worthwhile ...
no matter what you fish or how you fish ... it's a game. why not try to figure it out?? beleiving that it can't be figured out would dispute some guys i know who can't be as lucky as they are good.
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Location: Seymour, WI | I know that this questions has been asked before, but can someone post a picture of what deep sand grass is. I would like to see a picture of the actual plant.
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Location: minocqua, wi. | Grass - 6/19/2012 12:54 PM
I know that this questions has been asked before, but can someone post a picture of what deep sand grass is. I would like to see a picture of the actual plant.
great question and wish i had a picture ... i pulled a stalk about 12' long out of that patch Steve shows the video on out of 35' of water. sometimes it's tight to the bottom and sometimes it's like a friggin kelp forest. so easy to find in the winter while ice fishing an that's also a great time to get to know your lakes.
as travis mentions, not all lakes have it
but, if they do ... fish the dog out of it and know how to get your bait to it. a polish fella who likes to drive boats really fast showed me once how he can find spots in it that have varied height of the sand-grass. using his electronics, he targets it with his casts and can feel the tops ticking the hooks on his bulldawg. smartest thing to do when in the boat with him is to just hold onto the #*^@ net and be ready, no sense casting yourself. go look and find some video clips and listen to the guys while they are fishing. other than the guys noted here who use systematic approaches to deep-water tactics using electronics like jlong, cpainter and bnelson ... search some of the badfishoutdoors.net video files and see how to systematically contact and catch fish. so much to learn and put into practice ... here's a guy we all know who rarely looks at the water when he casts ... his eyes are glued to his electronics fishing "his system" ... wish he had a usb port on the side of his head!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8Is16xPVDk
anyone who has ever ice-fished with mark and watched him drill a hole/s to set a tip-up will know what i'm talking about ... and probably be laughing right now with an experience of stepping into one of the "finder holes" ... lol. it's in the detail ... it's all in the details.
it's worth it ... and works with many species for narrowing down the ability to find fish which under limited time is what we all are looking for, right?
deep sand-grass holds big LMB's too ... :0)
jig-shake-rest ... watch your line swim to the side
Edited by jonnysled 6/19/2012 1:46 PM
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