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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | Johannes - 11/16/2011 6:28 PM
I agree with Nelson 100% - ask the guys who catch lots of big fish. Color can make the difference. I have seen it over an over - two guys throwing the same bait but different colors and one catches nearly all the fish. I would work a DDD as erratic as possible with serveral pauses - that would be option 1 of 2. Option 2 - throw rubber (dawgs/dussa's) - try match the hatch and try the opposite. Process of elimination - get dialed in and then expolit the pattern. Sounds like an awesome opportunity to me - I would cast it more than troll it. Hope you hit it big!
So it is all color. Not the variation in how one guy works it vs. the other? Not cast location? Speed of retrieve? Number of twitches vs. pause? Length of one anglers pause vs the others? Are each of the baits exactly the same? Take a suick, no one is identical out of the package. I've even seen two identical baits, identical colors and one out fishes the other.
My point is color is not the sole factor and I wouldn't be limiting myself based solely on color. Looks like a few votes for the DDD. Who first suggested that idea?
Back to the topic at hand.......The muskies are hanging around the ciscos why? They want to eat them. You want a hamburger, do you go to KFC? No. |
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Posts: 2361
| Never throw green. |
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| Ok Pointer - give me a break. How many different ways can you twitch a DDD or jerk a Dawg? Seriously? You are being argumentative just to be argumentative. Sure it can make a difference - but I know for certain that color can make a difference - you are essentially saying it can't. All I'm saying is that it can and I have seen it. Here's an example - last fall while fishing a cisco spawn me and Rozanski were both fishing Pounders - he stuck three 50" fish, a 49" and two other 45" fish on a certain color from the back of the boat in the matter of 4 hours. Now i have fished with him for years and I know we do not work our baits much different at all. At that point, we both assumed it was color - so we decided to test the theory. We switched baits...we had two hours left - guess what? I stuck two 50'+ fish and one other upper 40's...and he caught nothing. That is only one of many real experience examples I could mention.
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | Are all baits identical straight out of the box?
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| sworrall wrote "Another point. Want to catch big fish? Go fish where there are good numbers of them. Want to catch more of them than what might be considered average? Fish more hours. Plenty of variables on that front, too"
BINGO!!! Couldn't agree more. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | You switched lures.
Think about what you just said.
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | Johannes - 11/16/2011 7:01 PM
sworrall wrote "Another point. Want to catch big fish? Go fish where there are good numbers of them. Want to catch more of them than what might be considered average? Fish more hours. Plenty of variables on that front, too"
BINGO!!! Couldn't agree more.
Wait....so it isn't all color? |
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| Ok...I'll take the bobber down one more time.
Where did I say color is the ONLY factor? It is one of the factors and CAN make a difference.
Continue on...I have to go change diaper. |
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| Steve: Sorry did not see your post - just saw it. Guess I'm confused? Was the "you switched lures" line directed towards my example? Maybe I didn't state things clearly - Rozanski and I switched baits - hence, me throwing the one he was throwing and me throwing the one he was throwing - therefore switching colors. I put the color on he was throwing (and catching fish on) and he put the one I was throwing (and not catching fish on) - when I put the one on he was throwing - I started catching the fish and when he put the one on that I was not catching fish on - he did not catch fish. Therefore - color did matter.
Sorry if that was not clear - or maybe your post was not directed towards me and if that was the case - please ignore this response.
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Location: The desert | Johannes - 11/16/2011 7:14 PM
Ok...I'll take the bobber down one more time.
Where did I say color is the ONLY factor? It is one of the factors and CAN make a difference.
Continue on...I have to go change diaper.
Certainly, it can. Have I denied that? |
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Location: The desert | Johannes - 11/16/2011 7:26 PM
You just said and this is cut and pasted from the first page.
"This might work as well, but in all honesty I don't think color really matters. Attempting to mimic the vibrations of a wounded baitfish might be a good start. I'd throw a DDD."
Yeah, it isn't my top priority. To me, I don't put a lot of stock in colors. Use the basics and you'll be just fine. I'd rather focus on locations, bait type etc.
So is that you last post, or will your next one be? LOL! |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Johannes - 11/16/2011 8:19 PM
Steve: Sorry did not see your post - just saw it. Guess I'm confused? Was the "you switched lures" line directed towards my example? Maybe I didn't state things clearly - Rozanski and I switched baits - hence, me throwing the one he was throwing and me throwing the one he was throwing - therefore switching colors. I put the color on he was throwing (and catching fish on) and he put the one I was throwing (and not catching fish on) - when I put the one on he was throwing - I started catching the fish and when he put the one on that I was not catching fish on - he did not catch fish. Therefore - color did matter.
Sorry if that was not clear - or maybe your post was not directed towards me and if that was the case - please ignore this response.
Yep. You switched lures, and openly assumed it was color that made one of those lures 'hot'. Could have been, might not have been. You don't know for certain, but made the assumption....something Muskie anglers do quite often; sometimes accurately, sometimes not.
The point is I feel it's important for to learn enough about color and water, muskie vision and behavior to lessen the assumptive.
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| SteveW. wrote "The point is I feel it's important for us to learn enough about color and water, muskie vision and behavior to lessen the assumptive. "
So are you assuming we don't take that into consideration? I could post pictures and states that would blow your mind from the last couple years...trust me Stevie...we are pretty dialed in and consider a lot of variables.
Color did matter - end of story.
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Location: The desert | Johannes - 11/16/2011 7:47 PM
SteveW. wrote "The point is I feel it's important for to learn enough about color and water, muskie vision and behavior to lessen the assumptive. "
So are you assuming we don't take that into consideration? I could post pictures and states that would blow your mind from the last couple years...trust me Stevie...we are pretty dialed in and consider a lot of variables.
Color did matter - end of story.
LOL.
What are states? I mean, what does the continental US have to do with musky fishing?
I thought you were done posting on this thread? |
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| Pointer - I'm having too much fun now. Sorry about my "e" in stats. You got me good!
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Location: Kronenwetter, WI | The season hasn't even closed yet. Seriously, now. |
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | Johannes - 11/16/2011 7:53 PM
Pointer - I'm having too much fun now. Sorry about my "e" in stats. You got me good!
What can I say, Johnie. I'm dialed in. Trust me. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Johannes - 11/16/2011 8:47 PM
SteveW. wrote "The point is I feel it's important for us to learn enough about color and water, muskie vision and behavior to lessen the assumptive. "
So are you assuming we don't take that into consideration? I could post pictures and states that would blow your mind from the last couple years...trust me Stevie...we are pretty dialed in and consider a lot of variables.
Color did matter - end of story.
This ain't about you, 'Johnny'. Never was. Look up the meaning of assumptive, please, the post I was referring to was rife with it. |
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Posts: 1711
Location: Mt. Zion, IL | I would jig a Bondy around the outside of the bait cloud. Keep an eye on the finder to monitor bait depth. |
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| Come on Steve, are you kidding me - was simply giving an example of a situation when color did matter and you spun it. Typical of you - now go ahead and clean up the thread to make yourelf look good. Maybe try to start another tournament trail or something...it's gonna work, right?
BTW - here is the definition of assumptive:
1. Characterized by assumption.
2. Taken for granted; assumed.
3. Presumptuous; assuming.
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Johannes - 11/16/2011 9:06 PM
Come on Steve, are you kidding me - was simply giving an example of a situation when color did matter and you spun it. Typical of you - now go ahead and clean up the thread to make yourelf look good. Maybe try to start another tournament trail or something...it's gonna work, right?
BTW - here is the definition of assumptive:
1. Characterized by assumption.
2. Taken for granted; assumed.
3. Presumptuous; assuming.
I see you are still incapable of mature debate.
OK:
You claim that one angler was using a lure that was catching all the fish.
You were using the same brand and size lure in a different color and were catching nothing.
You took the lure that was catching all the fish and gave the other angler the one that was not.
You assumed, because it was the obvious difference, that it was the color that made the difference. Work done by the Lindners, Sosin, and many others and in my work with several instruments including a hydrophone, it's been discussed there are many variables that could have been in effect that created the overall signature/footprint the fish were reacting to in that bait. Color might have been the factor...or it might not have been.
And what I was saying is...the understanding of the difference between the term 'contrast' and 'color' is also pretty important. And, I wasn't originally saying that specifically to you.
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I was using the term as an adjective:
Adj. 1. assumptive - excessively forward; "an assumptive person"; "on a subject like this it would be too assuming for me to decide"; "the duchess would not put up with presumptuous servants"
assuming, presumptuous
forward - used of temperament or behavior; lacking restraint or modesty; "a forward child badly in need of discipline"
2. assumptive - accepted as real or true without proof; "the assumed reason for his absence"; "assumptive beliefs"
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Although the first description fits your argument and demeanor nicely, it was the second that holds context here.
And, by the way, if the LLC that formed the MAC decides the economy has come back enough and are still interested in offering higher percentage payback events that offer reasons for fishing industry manufacturers to sponsor a Muskie angler with more than a few free product items (Paul asks more than once every year...he's open to firing back up the original MMT circuit and wants to offer at least one specialty event) Zach, Fiberdome and I will support the effort. If not, I'm good with that, I'm plenty busy without adding more workload.
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| Ok - my pot shot was wrong. I apologize for that.
Steve - I don't think "that" (as in your last post) much on the water. That gives me a headache to think about. If that is the case - no bait is the same - therefore any theory based on color, lure choice, ect...is irrelevant. Why even talk about this stuff then? Really - if someone was to apply that kind of thinking to anything in life you could poke holes in nearly everything.
Take golf (something I know a little about) for example - each individual golf ball in a sleeve (3 balls) could be fractionally different - maybe the letter stamping on them is not the same across each dimple - someone could say that it might fly a little different - to me that is crazy thinking. Essentially the same thing you are arguing here - let's agree to disagree. I would run my head into a wall before I analyed each bait - especially molded rubber that much.
I'm truely done now - my head hurts after reading that. Presidents Cup is on - the Tiger/Adam Scott match-up is fun to watch.
Good luck in the woods.
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Posts: 4080
Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | guest - 11/16/2011 2:21 PM
I’m putting the boat out on a lake I have fished numerous times with limited success. I’m asking for some guidance.
There is a large area where millions and millions of cisco stack up from 20-60 fow and they’ll be thick. Sometimes they are so thick, I’ll read the bottom at 15ft when I know I’m over 50. I’ve drifted for 10mins straight with a massive stack up of fish under me the entire time. How do I fish this? I feel like I can’t compete with all that bait.
I’ve seen the ciscoes jump out of the water before and they are all between 6-12 inches long and very skinny. They are not the jumbo whitefish/tullibee. I’ve typically been trolling 10” grandmas and casting mag dawgs. Perhaps too big?
First of all you will NEVER see Millions of Cisco's stacked up in any one area.... (maybe a few thousand, but never millions)
And from a guy that fishes Big V every fall for the last 15 yrs., I can tell ya that the ciscos are as big as 18-20 inches long.... Which means that the lures that your throwing "Can't" be to big.
Pounders have been the "go to bait" for this type of muskie hunting, A Cisco colored pounder has cought more fish than any other colored bait..... But... a gold colored (Walleye) and a Creamcicle colored Pounder has been good to me on this lake for yrs.
I wouldn't cast anything other than Big Rubber when the Ciscos are moving up to spawn, and I'd throw up shallow (6-12ft.) while sitting in 20-30ft.of water.......
Once the spawn is over,( 37-38*) I'd troll the main lake Islands,points, and deep drops close to shore using 10-18" long crankbaits.
I'm headed out tomorrow in 35* water for MRS.Fatty... 12*here tonight, I hope the boat isn't locked in with ice !
Jerome |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Get her, Jerome! |
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Posts: 152
| Is their any type of written color scale that details these color changes? Or is this something we must learn on or own? |
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Posts: 32884
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Too many variables to make up a chart. I reduce my lures to three classifications; dark, medium, and light. |
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Posts: 1529
| here we deel with massive shad runs. we run smaller shad style minnee mee baits. try to get within a ft of the upper school. as for colors belly patterns are best for us. muskys coming up to hammer baits see belly patterns first.. as here after the initial gorge muskys will get very selective in eating. that means fishing all day to hit the feeding windows. |
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Posts: 639
Location: Hudson, WI | Just my 2 cents, but "color doesn't matter, contrast does" makes about as much sense as saying, "I'm not a clown, I'm just dressed like one."
If you're on a bulldawg bite off of structure and one guy is nailing them on black/orange and the guy throwing a walleye dawg isn't getting bit, chances are the black/orange is more visible or enticing to the fish in that body of water. The contrast may be the 'why', but the color is the answer. |
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Posts: 4343
Location: Smith Creek | Pointer, has anyone disected a muskie brain to find out what color receptors are present? I know they have in trout and salmon and color plays a huge role in getting them to bite. Apples and oranges? |
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| Sworral, what is the photopic response of a muskies eye? Certainly it is different than that of the human eye. That would also be another variable. |
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