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| If you say it is, it must be. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Hey, you brought this topic to the folks here for review. If the folks you are looking to support you are challenging your assessments or asking you to back up your claims, it's incumbent upon you to do so without alienating every one of us in the process, wouldn't you say? |
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Posts: 2865
Location: Brookfield, WI | Variables from lake to lake are so great, that the effect on price based on whether a lake contains muskies is most likely impossible to quantify. Can your "broker" provide any data as to the number of homeowners on those lakes that are musky fishermen? What percentage of buyers in the marketplace make their purchase decisions based on the existence of muskies in a body of water? How many buyers make their decision based on the quality of fishing in general?
As someone mentioned previously, lakes that hold muskies are probably good fisheries in general. Lakes with good fisheries generally have better water quality. Most likely that's your difference. There are also many other characteristics that can drive property values that would be much more important than what fish swim in what lake. Building restrictions, tax rates, school systems, proximity to support facilities, whether Sled lives nearby or not, the quality of housing already existing on the lake, likelihood of future development, etc. How all other differences in location affect sale prices would need to be quantified before you could even begin to attribute higher prices to a fish.
The effect on price of one species of fish in a body of water is near impossible to pinpoint. I understand how the chart you posted might contain numbers exciting to those fighting for more stocking or the abolishing of spearing, but the rational would be easy to dispute.
Kevin |
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| I dont think I brought any ostentatious claims or intentions to the discussion such as 2X the taxes for 10% increase in value but I could be wrong. As fish were being stocked into the Horseshoe Chain last week one of the haters stopped to make insane claims about how the fish have already destroyed the property values. I showed how folk's selling real estate across the state are talking about Muskies, I dont think I made any claims that fish are the driving force on Tonka. The same things happen every time we've posted info on Muskie interactions with fish, stocking, actions to help the fish or C&R research. Someone is always put out, singled out or offended. I dont mind the Muskie haters. We all need and get something; I'll take the B.S. and deal out pocket deuces when I have to. I am only providing info that was given to me by a broker, along with his comments. Not Mine or any Muskie interest. No-one is trying to abolish spearing.
Edited by Muskiefool 10/31/2011 5:59 PM
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Posts: 2865
Location: Brookfield, WI | All I'm suggesting is that if you bring that information to a hearing and try to use it to your advantage, it's validity can be easily brought into question. In the reverse, I say the person that says muskies are detrimental to values also has an argument that is impossible to prove.
Kevin |
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Posts: 2865
Location: Brookfield, WI | My mistake on the spearing comment. That was just a general comment stating how someone who is pro-musky, and anti-anti-musky crowd could be excited about the data you posted. But should be cautious about that excitement.
Kevin |
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| I agree 100% Kevin, it takes multiple facets to help people understand Muskies and how they effect the water and our lives; because its a multi-edged sword (that I fall on 363 times a year, we all need a couple days away; lol). This is the first hint of info showing that Muskies do not destroy property values. I'm surely not qualified to conduct an economic impact study, but my real world discussions with folks from Fox Lake to Vermilion have told me they do have a positive influence on many things. Muskies dont suck,
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Location: minocqua, wi. | You ever seen real-estate on Tonka? |
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Posts: 342
Location: Passaic, NJ - Upper French River, ON | How can 102 sales on 10 lakes be a statistically significant sample ? |
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| Purify yourself in the waters of Lake Minnetonka! LOL, I get what you mean sled. |
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| i'd pay 10% more for a comparable home on a muskie lake than on a non-muskie lake in MN. in fact, i fully intend to do just that approximately one day after i retire. (i got a few years yet to save up.) i'm confused why folks are being so harsh on this. John doesn't pretend to be a real estate expert, but he does present compelling information that at a minimum demonstrates muskies do not negatively impact home values, might possibly augment them, and definitely is being used as a positive marketing angle. those are good things, and good info to be able to use when you hear some nonsense from someone claiming muskies are monsters. keep up the good work, John, and thanks for passing the info along to us.
Edited by lambeau 10/31/2011 8:09 PM
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | ... with lake minnetonka in the study comparing musky lake properties against others nowhere near the metro and making the claim that "if you have Muskies in your lake on average the property is worth $28,805.00 ... no schidt?!
keep editing dude ...
compelling information indeed ... some might consider it sensationaled b.s. |
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| some might consider it sensationaled b.s. go to the primary sources listed. is the "houses are worth more" bit over-stated? yes.
is the presence of muskies being used as a positive marketing angle? yes. is it evident that the presence of muskies does not negatively effect value? yes. |
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Posts: 374
Location: Bemidji | lambeau - 10/31/2011 8:49 PM
is it evident that the presence of muskies does not negatively effect value? yes.
I think thats kinda the whole point Underhill was trying to get across.
Edited by kevin cochran 10/31/2011 9:13 PM
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | does the embellished message of a zealot get lost in b.s. and lose credibility for the cause? ... yes |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Actually, all good points. One needs be conscious of the entire landscape, and all...
The landscapers. |
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Posts: 366
| It's a marketing sales pitch promotional tool! Not a scientific fact mission about creating the best possible lake property pricing algorithm known to man. Some of you guys sure nitpick the life out of everything. Perception is all that really matters in this discussion, and whether a negative perception towards muskies is valid and warranted doesn’t really matter to its own existence. Perception is what drives housing prices, nothing more, nothing less.
Edited by Fishwizard 10/31/2011 9:24 PM
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Location: Elk River, Minnesota | It'd be interesting to track property values on the newly stocked lakes in MN. If property values go up at a higher rate without much improvement in the homes/cabins etc, there might be an argument there that muskies have made a positive impact on property values. I do think it would be a huge stretch, though in my humble opinion.
I do think I understand where Muskiefool is coming from, though... Take a look at some of the real estate websites in northern MN. Many of them have it listed in the ads of being on prime muskie waters (some even list them separately) and as such, I would not be surprised at all that the prices listed are set a bit higher. All in the marketing to get the highest price. The realty sales associates know the area, what is popular, etc...so it would only be natural to advertise it. I know for when my time comes a few years down the line, I will narrow my search based upon whether or not muskies are in the lake. If it means paying a little more, I guess that is what I will have to do...
Steve |
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| One last time for your sake sled this does not include any Metro lakes, like I said its a area in North Central MN. I hope this helps you understand it does not include Tonka, Vermilion, Miltona, DL, or Mille Lacs. Edited for your pleasure 
Edited by Muskiefool 10/31/2011 10:21 PM
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| Thanks for thinking outside the box, Muskiefool, and providing this data. Its not your fault it rubs some folks the wrong way and I am not alone in appreciating your angle. |
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| I don't think it has "rubbed anyone the wrong way", but there are a lot of us out there who either own lakefront real estate, are shopping for lakefront real estate, or in Hopeful's case, have actually made their living in the real estate business. When someone makes a a claim that real estate on muskie lakes sells for $28k more than on non-muskie lakes, and that's because of muskies? Well, it's a noble agenda. Encouraging people to see the positive influence that muskies can have on a lake is a good thing. But we have to be careful not to make ourselves look foolish in the process. It's difficult enough to convince someone of something when they believe otherwise, especially when they WANT to believe otherwise. But when you're using reasoning that might not be sound reasoning, it defeats your cause.
We have an agenda, and everyone knows it. The only way to convince people that our way is the better way is to make sure we are right, and that we have sound evidence in our favor that can't be reputed. When you make a claim that real estate on muskie lakes is more expensive, and 10 people can give you 20 other reasons why that real estate might be more expensive, none of which have anything to do with the presence of muskies in the lake? Maybe that's not an argument that's going to gain us any ground in our pursuit of new muskie waters.
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Posts: 444
| I'm no Real estate mogue or anything but seems to me that the more a lake has to offer, the more buyers or potential buyers it would attract, driving up demand and increasing price....
I could easily see more demand for a lake that has Bass, Muskie, Walleye, Perch and crappie fishing VS a lake that has say just blue gills, crappie and bass....
Edited by thescottith 11/1/2011 11:54 AM
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Location: Minneapolis, MN | We have been considering/looking for a place on a muskie lake in MN for years. If you spend any time looking at lake property in MN you will quickly notice that the value of "muskie" lakes is higher than non-muskie lakes. However, I caution everyone before positioning that there is a cause of muskies in a lake creating the effect of higher property values. I would suggest that in general it is a coincidence not a cause based on most of the great muskie lakes in MN are just great lakes to begin with. For example, the lakes out west are very close to money/population in ND, Vermilion is one of the most beautiful shield lakes we have in the state, Bemidji is right in the middle of town, Minnetonka is the biggest lake in the Metro, etc. |
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Posts: 19
| Its the only reason i would ever want to live on tonka. or any other lake for that matter.
Edited by clm 11/1/2011 4:44 PM
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Posts: 829
Location: Maple Grove, MN | There are a lot of valid arguments here. It seems that we can agree that Muskies do not drive lake property values down.
I do know that Little Boy and Wabedo seem to have higher property values than other lakes in the Longville area that do not have Muskies. In fact, a number of the area lakes seem to have better multi-species fishing than either Little Boy or Wabedo and yet the Muskie lakes seem to have higher property values. At least they did when my in-laws were looking at lake property in 2003. The difference in value then was actually more in the 30k to 50k range over similar properties on nearby lakes. So, despite my begging and pleading, my in-laws bought less expensive property on a nearby lake without Muskies.
Although, one could also make the argument that the deerflies drive up property values. At least the deerflies seem a lot worse around Wabedo than anywhere I have ever been. 
As for me, I do plan to buy lake property before I retire. I wouldn't consider buying lake property on a non-Muskie lake and would gladly pay only 28k more to be on a lake with quality Muskie fishing.
Just my two cents.
Edited by Herb_b 11/1/2011 5:33 PM
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| it was an interesting and obvsiously debatable post but i don't think muskiefool ever represented himself as case-schiller. I've never done an analysis but to me it seems like cabins on musky lakes seem to be a little more pricey...just an observation looking around. they also seem to be bigger, deeper lakes or a chain of lakes. which i think attracts more of the boating crowd. you know the boating crowd that will buzz through a weedbed at 50MPH with a 250+HP engine. same crowd that complains of musky stockings. |
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Location: deephaven mn | jonnysled - 10/31/2011 5:12 PM
Minnetonka real estate is driven by muskies? You're seriously using tonka
muskies in minnetonka may not effect property values,
it is interesting that a realator will use muskies to promote sales.
so it must help to mention muskeis in the listing
Edited by kap 11/2/2011 3:10 PM
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| I think part of the reaction here is to muskiefool and not necessarily the report (which I agree is quite limited in value). Muskiefool has consistently proven to be a blind zealot with horrible English skills. And to think this guy claims to represent muskie fishermen to the MN legislature -- he fits the stereotype perfectly.
It's been said before: muskie fishing will be just like trout fishing someday if we keep this up. Fly fishermen look down at the guy who throws spinners and says awful things about the guy who fishes worms. So a bunch of us are half way there because of the sucker fishing debate. The idea that we'll take this sport away from the masses by making it an elitist activity makes me want to puke. |
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| So dispelling myths and working on the problems of Muskie stocking are taking away fishing opportunity from the masses and leaving them to the "elite" like myself?
I throw spinners for Trout does that help my status  Your point of not having a point is so typical Enjoy
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Posts: 374
Location: Bemidji | I am the other co-chair of the MN Muskie and Pike Alliance and my boat got two fish on suckers today. Does that make me an elite trout fisherman? |
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