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Location: Pelican Rapids, MN | I would say theory - as most of the things we know about these fish are purely based on theory.
That and time on the water observing.
Edited by Jsondag 7/23/2011 6:51 PM
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Location: Ontario | ...which is worth ten pint glasses full of theory if you ask me. I'm pretty inclined to listen to what a guy like Jerry has to say.
Edited by JBush 7/23/2011 7:15 PM
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Location: Brookfield, WI | Play golf. Or sand volleyball. Save a musky.
Kevin |
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Location: Pelican Rapids, MN | The way I see it, as a good rule of thumb, when I head out on the lake on a hot day, and panfish, baitfish, and the occasional gamefish pops up dead dotting the surface it's probably time for me to take a break. Earlier this week, I was out watching the temps rise and passing dead sunny after dead sunny. Got to an open water spot, and there were a couple dead XL Ciscos. I figured the less oxygenated water was saturating the water columns deeper than the surface. In my boat, it's a time to be conscience and probably do something else. |
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Posts: 317
| I think it depends on where you are and the characteristics of the watershed.
DO trumps temp, and handling trumps both.
It's more of an issue of dissolved oxygen than water temps. Also, and I only speak for my home waters of N. IL, but the strain of fish that we have (Ohio) was chosen for it's warm water tolerance. These fish here are acclimated to warm water, and in fact, they don't really become aggressive until high 70's-low 80's. Fishing in 82 water does not worry me here, especially with the current and oxygen levels. Also, it comes down to handling, and most fish are never taken out of the water. In areas such as WI and MN were water temps are not normally this high, I absolutely agree that fishing should stop at 80, because the fish just aren't used to it. I personally believe the stop level where I'm at is 85. The fish are still aggressive, but a line has to be drawn. Plus, who wants to fish in that heat?
Edited by MuskyStalker 7/24/2011 12:34 PM
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| If you think that you can fish on a Northern Illinois system of lakes in 80 plus degree temps and not stress fish, your kidding yourself. I know the majority of fish that are in that system are ohio strain but what about the spotted fish also present? That system gets some current, but it also carries huge sediment loads when under current as well as heavy bloom at this time of year. Combine that with the weed spraying that typically takes place on this system and your disolved oxygen content can't be good! I guess I can go south and fish (*pick a reservoir*) when the temps are around 90 because those fish are used to those temps and because they are reservoirs and they have current? |
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Posts: 132
Location: Missouri | Don't be tricked by fish swimming off just fine and assuming they will live. Its documented with other fish species that heat related stress results in increased delayed mortality.
Also most of the fishes stress comes when fighting them in. While handling makes a difference, even a well handled fish is very susceptible to death from the stress of the fight in warm temps.
Edited by riverrat09 7/24/2011 4:39 PM
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 78/79 degrees in one bay, 81 in another, and warmed on the deeper transducer to boot, not a good sign. Sue and I put away the muskie gear and fished bluegills. Crappies and gills tonight with a bonus bass, and dinner was superb. |
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Posts: 317
| "That system gets some current, but it also carries huge sediment loads when under current as well as heavy bloom at this time of year. Combine that with the weed spraying that typically takes place on this system and your disolved oxygen content can't be good!" This is no longer correct. Zebra Mussles have really cleared the water on the northern lakes and aside from moderate bloom, water quality is quite good. Thermocline is well established around 25', which makes for plenty of oxygenated waterspace for fish. At least on the northern lakes I have not seen any heat killed or stressed baitfish, and it has been quite breezy, even when hot, which also adds oxygen. Like I said:
1.Handling
2.DO
3.Temps |
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Posts: 152
| Thanks to all the replies. thought it was an interesting question to start a thread.
Lots of opinions...think i'll continue bluegill fishing for awhile. We ALL seek monsters
but there is time for that later in the year. No need to unnecessarily kill bigger than average fish just to say "I got 3 more this week"... IMO |
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Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Tying this into the Bassin thread, from what I have found most info is all based on theory. Pretty tough to find any kind of concrete evidence supporting what temps we should or shouldn’t be fishing at for various species of fish. Always an argument for or against it depending on how someone interprets info, and how the same info can actually be portrayed to support or disprove the same argument. In the end it all boils down to individuals ideas of what kind of conservationist they want to be themselves. Each person should have an idea of how well they handle fish, the effects that has on the fish, and in the end should know best when or when not to be fishing.
Not bad to have guidelines though. Of which the musky angling community has adopted 80°…based on what I am not sure. Not sure of other species communities have adopted similar guidelines or not.
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| For me, a better approach to stuff like this is to just take a good look at who the authors are of the various comments made on subjects that tend to get somewhat contentious. Some of the guys who post are clearly "expert" in this field and probably do represent "proven science" based on thousands of hours on the water. If I see six or eight guys I believe to be really "Top Sticks" all sounding sort of the same on an issue....well that's usually good enough for me. That's even more true for me when I see a guy who is a top-tier guide telling me to stay off the water, when it is costing him money to say it. Marty Forman |
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Location: Northern Wisconsin | You could be the best musky handler in the world but that doesn't make it okay to target musky in hot water, IMO. Even if you don't take them out of the net or do a water release they are still stressed from the fight itself. You never know if you are going to hook one deep where it requires an extensive amount of time to remove the hooks. And how do you know that DO levels are sufficient on your particular lake when the temp is over 80? Basically everyone, even guides whose income depends on catching muskie, agrees 80 is the stopping point and I'm sure they (the guides) handle musky just as good as anyone.
Edited by fish4musky1 7/26/2011 10:01 AM
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Posts: 224
Location: Madison | fish4musky1 - 7/26/2011 9:44 AM
Basically everyone, even guides whose income depends on catching muskie, agrees 80 is the stopping point and I'm sure they handle musky just as good as anyone.
Everyone except "Guest." It's interesting how many of the people who claim it's OK to fish in warm water seem to be afraid to be ID'ed. |
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| Jsondag - 7/23/2011 9:18 PM
The way I see it, as a good rule of thumb, when I head out on the lake on a hot day, and panfish, baitfish, and the occasional gamefish pops up dead dotting the surface it's probably time for me to take a break. Earlier this week, I was out watching the temps rise and passing dead sunny after dead sunny. Got to an open water spot, and there were a couple dead XL Ciscos. I figured the less oxygenated water was saturating the water columns deeper than the surface. In my boat, it's a time to be conscience and probably do something else.
Just curious Jerry.....and you may have eluded to this already.....but what do you do when you have a trip booked by out-of-staters that have traveled many hrs to fish with you, and the water temps aren't cooperating. Are those clients out their deposit, rainchecked? The reason I ask is that if I schedule a vacation to fish that may be the only days I could get away from work, so a raincheck wouldn't do me much good for that season, and I'm sure you wouldn't want to keep rainchecking days into next year that you could book for full price. Just wondering?
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| Junkman - 7/26/2011 8:18 AM
For me, a better approach to stuff like this is to just take a good look at who the authors are of the various comments made on subjects that tend to get somewhat contentious. Some of the guys who post are clearly "expert" in this field and probably do represent "proven science" based on thousands of hours on the water. If I see six or eight guys I believe to be really "Top Sticks" all sounding sort of the same on an issue....well that's usually good enough for me. That's even more true for me when I see a guy who is a top-tier guide telling me to stay off the water, when it is costing him money to say it. Marty Forman
Just saying, being as though there is no real proven science, couldn't most/all the guides say that 80* is their stopping point just so that people like us listen to them and clear up the summer traffic for themselves? Just saying. |
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Location: Northern Wisconsin | guest - 7/26/2011 11:45 AM
Junkman - 7/26/2011 8:18 AM
For me, a better approach to stuff like this is to just take a good look at who the authors are of the various comments made on subjects that tend to get somewhat contentious. Some of the guys who post are clearly "expert" in this field and probably do represent "proven science" based on thousands of hours on the water. If I see six or eight guys I believe to be really "Top Sticks" all sounding sort of the same on an issue....well that's usually good enough for me. That's even more true for me when I see a guy who is a top-tier guide telling me to stay off the water, when it is costing him money to say it. Marty Forman
Just saying, being as though there is no real proven science, couldn't most/all the guides say that 80* is their stopping point just so that people like us listen to them and clear up the summer traffic for themselves? Just saying.
ya, they are trying to trick us... better hit the water harder than ever when temps reach above 80 because the 'skis are really biting. |
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| Musky Stalker wrote:This is no longer correct. Zebra Mussles have really cleared the water on the northern lakes and aside from moderate bloom, water quality is quite good. Thermocline is well established around 25', which makes for plenty of oxygenated waterspace for fish. At least on the northern lakes I have not seen any heat killed or stressed baitfish, and it has been quite breezy, even when hot, which also adds oxygen. Like I said:
1.Handling
2.DO
3.Temps..... Ok, sediment load come from the fox river bringing in the "current" you speak of to this system, zebras can't filter the incoming water from the river quickly. If water is clear then current is low. If you have a well established thermocline, then current can't be of any large amount otherwise you wouldn't see a themocline. You keep fishing your hot water and telling everyone that is it ok and justify it any way you want. I will stay home until surface temps get what I feel are safe (sustained 78 degrees or below). 3. Temps are to hot to fish safely in my opinion. 2. Do you have a disolved oxygen probe and meter that you take measurements on this system with? If so i would love to tag along and see your findings or how you come about your theories. 1. handling.... why even fish when for those fish when it's questionable??? |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Just saying, being as though there is no real proven science, couldn't most/all the guides say that 80* is their stopping point just so that people like us listen to them and clear up the summer traffic for themselves? Just saying.
Uhh, no, MuSk.
There's plenty of literature out there on the effects of warm water on muskies, and many DNR fisheries biologists will not sign off on a permit for a tournament...even a small one like an MI event...if the water is too warm and during times when it's regularly been an issue in the past.
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| People can and will do whatever they have to rationalize to themselves why it is ok to fish in temps @ or above 80. Sometimes these people are doing it because they are all to concerned with getting those numbers of fish for their yearly plaque or what not. Sometimes its because they love fishing out there when all of the responsible and better sticks are not fishing because they know better.
It always amuses me though that these posters always are the "internet pro" types . The types who post on every message board talking as if they are the best thing since sliced bread and on a great year they catch 5-10 fish. They talk about not taking pictures and water release because its too hot and then theres the photo of the 30 incher. Really? Telling you about how they are superior fish handlers but they catch 10 fish a year if they are lucky. really? Huh?
My biggest concern is for the newcomers to the sport to read posts where people say its accepted behavior to fish when its too hot. If thats their first lesson in this matter , its definitely not the right way to lead them. I guess i'd rather the people that think along these lines to talk to your local DNR or fisheries biologist about delayed mortality. Just because you watched her swim off you tell yourself its OK?. Out of sight out of mind Eh? Not so fast. Have an open mind and learn more before you write that its ok to do on the internet. The tone I generally get from these posts is not that of wanting to discuss, but wanting to stir the pot and rile people up.
At the end of the day its a free country and people will do as they please . I dont fish when the water gets at or above 80 degrees. Its an individual belief of mine, and my wish is that everyone uses their sense of good judgement. Take care and tight lines |
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Excellent points fish4musky1
I agree with you 100% ...... Let's give em a break for a month or so |
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Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Just to clarify I am not for fishing for muskies above 80° if that is the way some took my message. Nor am I for fishing other species, unless they are going in the frying pan, once the water gets *too hot*. I do feel it does beg to question how *too hot* is determined, and thus why there are forums for us all to discuss such topics. |
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Posts: 255
| So here is a scenario: I am able to take one week every year to my family's cabin in Northern WI. We cannot go elsewhere. It has to be the first week in Aug. every year. I have no choice in the matter. I love to fish musky and so do the kids. So if we do not ever target other fish because we prefer muskies, what do you do? Do I just sell my boat and tell the kids "Too bad!"? Probably not a good idea. I am fishing muskies. I handle them properly, I fish at the best times, and I am all about CPR. I guess I am a musky killer if I don't buy a $1000 DO tester or if water temps are too high. |
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| There was a tournament on Forest Lake in MN last saturday, water temps were above 80. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'Not bad to have guidelines though. Of which the musky angling community has adopted 80°…based on what I am not sure. Not sure of other species communities have adopted similar guidelines or not.'
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Statements in the literature from the leading muskie authorities in the world and the absolute fact leading muskie fisheries biologists will not sign off on a permit for competitive angling when temps are traditionally high ( even just averaging high 70's), and may step in and cancel an event if there's fear temps will be in the 80 degree range or higher. I have spoken with Wisconsin and Minnesota fisheries folks who tell me 80 is a good number at which to leave muskies alone, especially if through the major portion of the water column.
Why not permit a muskie tournament? Social stigma attached to finding several floaters a few days after a hot water event. It's happened, and they won't encourage it happening again. Nothing much to do with the biological damage, it's considered negligible even if a few fish are killed. if the local biologist sees no harm in losing a few fish to temperature related added stress, they may sign off anyway. I'd bet a dollar you won't find one in Minnesota.
Walleyes? Most events are listed as 'kill events' in the heat of the summer. If the event organizers want to try to release fish, the DNR has to be there and has the say on every fish going back into the water. Some states will not allow a transport event during hot water periods at all unless it's a kill event. Some states ban walleye events totally during the summer.
There will be some mortality, mostly due to livewelling for long periods of time, no matter the time of year and water temps. AIM got around that by immediate CRR, which was recently accepted in Iowa.
Bass?
Nothing out there we have seen, and we cover a bunch of the B.A.S.S and FLW Tour events. Talking with folks who run the big shows, no reason for there to be an issue overall, if the fish are handled properly, and many times a local biologist is on hand. There will be some mortality, mostly due to livewelling for long periods of time, which is why there's a serious point loss for a dead fish in many events. Good source, considering those events usually transport the fish in the well for as long as hours, and I'm letting the fish I don't want to harvest go immediately.
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Some have only become experts as no one ever questions the data, and sometimes those that are contentious are so as they refuse to be Lemmings.
Supporting data validates statements…not age or title.'
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At least try to listen to those who have lived and fished in the South in REAL heat, or have taken the time to learn the answers from the right sources or had the personal experience to offer answers. And at least try not to be rude if those answers conflict with your beliefs. Simple stuff. Sometimes being older just means willingness to listen and learn, and discussing things reasonably. Sometimes, it just means crabby. When you get there, and you will, some 'punk kid' will call you out, too. Good luck keeping your demeanor. 
From a friend/associate of mine over in Ohio in fisheries:
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The July weather pattern has led to a keen interest in hot lake water and how it might affect the incidence of delayed mortality on muskies being caught and released. The short answer is that the odds for delayed mortality are higher because of the water temperatures and the only way to completely avoid it is not to fish until conditions improve. The fact that State and private fish hatcheries, as a practice, do not deliver and stock even channel catfish in 80-degree water temperatures because of increased fish mortalities serves as a real world example. Can muskie anglers still fish and use methods that reduce the odds for delayed mortality? Absolutely. I have written and presented techniques at seminars for many years on how to accomplish this. Fast water releases are the key technique. However, this post is aimed at what effect higher lake temperatures have on our ability to release healthy muskies that continue to grow bigger and be caught another day not just to see them eventually go-down. Its important to note that delayed mortality may take days and be hardly noticed but frequently it occurs by the next morning after the release.
Delayed mortality may occur from the combination of stressors a fish experiences during a catch and release fishing event along with any associated tissue damage and blood loss. Our lake conditions since the Fourth of July have become a major factor because the sustained hot weather conditions have warmed the surface waters above 80-degrees (morning temperature) and caused that temperature to reach all the way down to the thermocline. The dissolved oxygen at the thermocline depth drops below 4 ppm. This is a key point because once the coolest water available to a cool-water species like muskies goes above the 80-degree range or below 4-6 ppm oxygen, the fish reach a stressful situation. Thats why the odds for delayed mortality go up under these conditions. The fish are already at the point of stress before being caught. A muskie stressed by warm water or low oxygen will continue to feed to a point, making them vulnerable to angling. In fact, being cold-blooded means their metabolism is greater at higher temperatures, but eventually the stress shuts their feeding down and they start to lose body condition.
For example, both Alum Creek and Caesars Creek Lakes currently have conditions where the 80-degree water has reached all the way down to the 4 ppm oxygen levels at the thermocline. With continued hot weather conditions, it will only become worse. The oxygen in warm upper layer the (epilimnion) that doesnt mix with the colder water below it with little or no oxygen (hypolimnion) will continue to reduce in depth, making the thermocline shallower and forcing the muskies into hotter water and even more stressful conditions.
Its no coincidence that some of our best muskie lakes have cool or coldwater sources, whether from springs, ground water, or cold feeder streams. The cold water helps provide summer refuge from extreme water conditions. A side effect of summer stress is reduced growth. The good news is that we commonly start to experience better conditions by the end of August. Alum Creek, for example, starts to de-stratify by the end of August in most years. We were fortunate last year to experience an abnormally cool summer with water temperatures that stayed below 78-degrees in August.
There are a few other facts to consider while fishing during summer if you choose to do so. Years ago delayed mortality was not an issue because most everyone kept the muskies they caught. Anglers quit fishing if they reached their legal limit. As Muskie Inc. members, most of us strive to obtain quality releases and our hopes are to avoid delayed mortality. However, we could be causing more mortality by fishing at the wrong time or with bad releases than someone whose goal is to keep muskies. How many of us stop fishing after just one release?
Immediate, or near immediate, mortality fish are easy to spot because they float belly up in the surrounding area of the attempted release. Fish caught from deep water that cant be released immediately will experience air-bladder expansion which also causes them to float belly-up. If they are too weak to swim back down to neutral buoyancy, they will die in the hot surface waters. Some of you may have seen my muskie presentation where I show a technique that is a last ditch effort to save a muskie that experiences air bladder expansion. I use my anchor rope marked for the thermocline depth and clip the muskie by the front of its jaw using a very short 4 lb test line and a #10 hook and then lower it back down to just above the thermocline. When the muskie regains its strength, it will pop itself free and not float back up. Some key points if you need to try this: you must know the thermocline depth or at least the depth you caught your muskie at. Below this depth there may be no oxygen plus the fish will only reach neutral buoyancy at this depth. Choose a release site that is just shallower than the thermocline so the fish can rest on the bottom. If one releases a fish that is not strong enough to maintain swimming after pulling free from the release hook over open water, the fish can sink like a rock if water deeper than its original depth is present. Water pressure is what causes this effect. More compressed oxygen in the air bladder is needed to remain neutrally buoyant the deeper a fish goes. A fish that drops below the summer thermocline after a bad release will suffocate and will not float. They lay in the cold un-oxygenated anoxic water and are slowly digested by anaerobic bacteria.
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Location: 31 | I think that's kind of interesting on the early morning temps being lower and therefore less stress… but… IMHO, there are some other pretty obvious factors that should be considered besides just the surface temperature. Was the fish in deeper water (like Jerry says), was it hooked badly, is it windy or rough, a long fight, a larger/older fish, Not to mention how experienced/inexperienced the fishermen is at release. All these factors are going to increase/compound an already stressful situation. This past weekend I was trolling by myself and the warmest surface temperatures I observed was 76°, (I point this out because it takes me longer to put them in the bag solo). Anyway, after a couple of successful releases, I decide I want a measurement on about a 4'er. I definitely understand the temp/rough/solo deal and checked out the fish in the bag after unhooking and getting her in a good recovery position. She was flapping her gills, upright without support... every thing was cool. I grab the fish with good belly support and gently set it on the waiting bump board and then right back in the net to recover (15 seconds). I would normally just put the fish back in the lake but when it's rough like that I preferred putting them back in the net no matter what the water temperature is. Anyway, she very freakishly just went belly up immediately and died right there in my arms. There was simply nothing I could do to revive her... the sad part is that I'm confident I could have just let her swim out of the net if I didn't remove her from the water...no guarantees of course. It pains me to admit it, but she died like that because I wanted that stupid meaningless measurement. If someone wants to blast me for admitting I made this mistake, so be it... it certainly will not be my last. I'm just hoping this helps to increase understanding. |
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| I used to guide years ago and never was one for over 80 on water temp. I guided because I needed the money and turning down jobs only hurt me and most clients could not use rainchecks because of their limited time. I almost always was able to talk clients into going out real early or real late when temps subsided and if not able to accomplish this I'd tell them it was just too hot and I'd lose the job. It seems like the bigger fish are more likely to die; maybe this is because they usually take a little longer to land. But if given the choice I don't go out like i'm doing right now; waiting for the temps to cool and they will in a few weeks. I also have better action when the temps are cooler; prefer high 60's. Right now it's not only to hot for the fish but for the fisherman as well.. |
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| MuskyStalker, you state low DO levels as the main reason we need to quit when water temps reach 80+ but I fail to understand this. It seems like an extremely simple concept, generally speaking the higher the water temps the less oxygen water can hold. However, I believe there are so many seasonal/daily factors that determine current DO levels that water temp is actually a poor indication. I present to you more Lake Mendota buoy data. First is DO levels for the month of July 2011: http://metobs.ssec.wisc.edu/app/mendota/buoy/data/ascii?symbols=wt_... . DO levels at the beginning of the month are around 8ppm with water temps at 70. When the heat started pouring on from 7/16 through 7/20, water temps at 0.5m deep hit 80 (26.6) on 7/19 and DO levels were at 12ppm! Then only briefly to they dip below 10ppm and they only do so early in the morning (again, this would be the absolute worst time to fish).
Now, check out October of 2009 after turnover mixes everything up: http://metobs.ssec.wisc.edu/app/mendota/buoy/data/ascii?symbols=wt_... . DO levels are between 6-8ppm for the first 2 weeks! That's half as much oxygen than when water temps were 80. Wouldn't a fish be more susceptible to suffocation in October after a long fight?
Please somebody correct me if I'm interpreting the data incorrectly. Also someone with more biology background than me, can fish survive significantly lower DO levels just because the water is cooler?
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I think the danger zone for DO is significantly lower than any of the readings supplied, but I'm also not sure what part of the water column is measured by the bouy and where it's placed. Keep in mind also Mendota is somewhat of an anomaly.
Please read the piece I posted above, it speaks somewhat to your question and should help you in understanding the difference between DO levels at the top of the water column and the thermocline and releasing a stressed fish, and the effects of multiple stressors. |
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Posts: 317
| This is all very interesting, and I appreciate the calm rational and scientific responses, as opposed to the OMG crowd. I firmly believe that it really depends on the system you fish. I would have serious reservations in fishing on a lake like Tomahawk when the surface temps were 82. Fish in that system would not be acclimated and I'm sure that they would be stressed. I also would not fish Cave Run or Shelbyville because of low DO and heat.
When we fish the Fox Chain, fish are coming out of 3'-10' of weedy water, with temps anywhere from 78-83. These fish are acclimated. They seek out this water. They are aggressive and feisty and release well. If I saw hard releases I would think differently, but I just don't. That's not to say there isn't stress or even delayed mortality, but these are present in a percentage of all releases, regardless of temps.
Being out 2-4 days a week (always early mornings in summer) I pay attention to the water. I notice changes, how the wildlife reacts. I see a lot of fish activity, lot's of baitfish moving, lot's of follows...birds, everything points to healthy water. There were days , last year especially when we did not have adequate rainfall (no current) and extreme heat, where the water just looked wrong. There was no activity. Those days we just went home.
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